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Everything is more useful on units that have a lot of firepower. That's the nature of warfare. Speed is useful for anything with firepower, too, does that mean that only bikes and flyers don't suck?

 Melissia wrote:
Everything is more useful on units that have a lot of firepower. That's the nature of warfare. Speed is useful for anything with firepower, too, does that mean that only bikes and flyers don't suck?

It's a lot easier for them to be good than infantry. When I think about how much of a crutch the drop pod is, it really upsets me. I guess there's the Gladius now.

It's also a lot easier for a unit to be good when it has a 3+ save. No one is denying that units are more than the sum of their parts-- they are the interaction of all of their parts as well. But that means that all of their parts matter. And 3+ saves do make a big difference in survivability, turning mediocre units in to good units, and good units in to great units.

I mean FFS, I know this personally; I play Sisters and Guard. I know the difference between a unit having a 3+ save and not rather intimately

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, marines can't blitz much of anything at 36". And scatterbikes rarely have any reason to get any closer.

"And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of."

Not not exactly wowing me with your strategic acumen here. Tacs are a joke. Even for BA. Especially with LotD on the field. They ignore cover and bounce your heavy weapons.

Okay, maybe I tell a lie: The Vindicators where my first big worry. The Tacticals came close after them though, especially after I killed two of the Vindicators with my tanks and my Tank Destroyer.
Anyway, I am not the one whining about how bad an already incredibly good and under priced basic troops choice is.

Scared of Vindicators AND Tactical Marines? Wasn't scared of LotD when they make a mockery of the thing that makes Guardsmen durable? What kinda fantasy world do you play in?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, marines can't blitz much of anything at 36". And scatterbikes rarely have any reason to get any closer.

"And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of."

Not not exactly wowing me with your strategic acumen here. Tacs are a joke. Even for BA. Especially with LotD on the field. They ignore cover and bounce your heavy weapons.

Okay, maybe I tell a lie: The Vindicators where my first big worry. The Tacticals came close after them though, especially after I killed two of the Vindicators with my tanks and my Tank Destroyer.
Anyway, I am not the one whining about how bad an already incredibly good and under priced basic troops choice is.

Scared of Vindicators AND Tactical Marines? Wasn't scared of LotD when they make a mockery of the thing that makes Guardsmen durable? What kinda fantasy world do you play in?

He'/she's probably just inexperienced.

I know personally that when I first began running LoTD with their supplement that no one thought much of them.... Until they realized that they realized that they absolutely wreck face with plasma or melta weapons and with the animus malorum there too they were a pain to remove.


Now everyone at my flgs is scared of them and someone actually told me that they were too op... Haven't ran them since
Tacticals though? You shouldn't be worried about them unless they are coming out of a drop pod or there are at least 50 of them on the table.

Legion of the Damned are strong, if inflexible. 3++, accurate deep strike and Ignores Cover will always have its place, of course, even if it isn't exactly a top tier unit.

 Melissia wrote:
tl;dr: for whatever reason, Space Marines are popular, therefor people take counters that target Space Marines.

Out of the 23 armies now 11 of them use high numbers of T4 3+ saves.

Back in 3rd we had a saying "If you can kill marines you're fine" and that still rings true.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Legion of the Damned are strong, if inflexible. 3++, accurate deep strike and Ignores Cover will always have its place, of course, even if it isn't exactly a top tier unit.

You're high if you don't think Legion of the damned are top tier, especially with Jetbikes running around. Those bastards have won me games without a shadow of a doubt because of the 2 melta 3 grav shots that ignore cover. Eldar hate them. Therefore I take them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Legion of the Damned are strong, if inflexible. 3++, accurate deep strike and Ignores Cover will always have its place, of course, even if it isn't exactly a top tier unit.

What in the WORLD is inflexible about LotD? That they HAVE to Deep Strike? Locator Beacons on Drop Pods or their own ability makes that a literal non-issue. Remember: people will pay 50 points for a Lictor just to make sure their Mawloc does the job properly.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, marines can't blitz much of anything at 36". And scatterbikes rarely have any reason to get any closer.

"And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of."

Not not exactly wowing me with your strategic acumen here. Tacs are a joke. Even for BA. Especially with LotD on the field. They ignore cover and bounce your heavy weapons.

Okay, maybe I tell a lie: The Vindicators where my first big worry. The Tacticals came close after them though, especially after I killed two of the Vindicators with my tanks and my Tank Destroyer.
Anyway, I am not the one whining about how bad an already incredibly good and under priced basic troops choice is.

Scared of Vindicators AND Tactical Marines? Wasn't scared of LotD when they make a mockery of the thing that makes Guardsmen durable? What kinda fantasy world do you play in?

He'/she's probably just inexperienced.

I know personally that when I first began running LoTD with their supplement that no one thought much of them.... Until they realized that they realized that they absolutely wreck face with plasma or melta weapons and with the animus malorum there too they were a pain to remove.


Now everyone at my flgs is scared of them and someone actually told me that they were too op... Haven't ran them since
Tacticals though? You shouldn't be worried about them unless they are coming out of a drop pod or there are at least 50 of them on the table.

If you even bothered to read I A) Did not know they where coming till they turned up on turns 3 and 4 and B) They where in 2 small 5 man sections which failed to achieve anything as the Flamer one dropped in beyond flame range and the Melta one whiffed massively on its two rolls.
The Melta one was stuck in front of a Thunderer and 2 Exterminators and promptly suffered a terminal existence failure and the Flamer one then tried to assault my CCS next turn.... And was stuck there for the rest of the game as my command section promptly butchered them over three turns.

Also you have to remember that all he had on the table at the beginning was the Vindicare, the Scouts and Telion, the Devestators whom had missile launchers, the Vindicators and the Transports. Now if I had known about those LotD and if, when they did come in, they had been in larger 10 man sections I would have been more worried about them than that.
But they where in two small 5 man sections. A 3++ save is great until someone force feeds you a metric shitton of firepower over the space of a single turn. As the rule goes: "Force them to roll enough dice and they will eventually fail some rolls"

As for the Vindicators: My only long ranged AT stuff was my single tank destroyer and these Vindicators where in a linebreaker formation. To use my Melta guns I had to get really close... Also, does Crew Shaken/Stunned affect the blast? Im not sure because when they fired one of them was shaken but the formation is silent on the matter.

The Scouts where no real worry as I have an Eradicator. Turn two and I finished off what was left.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, marines can't blitz much of anything at 36". And scatterbikes rarely have any reason to get any closer.

"And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of."

Not not exactly wowing me with your strategic acumen here. Tacs are a joke. Even for BA. Especially with LotD on the field. They ignore cover and bounce your heavy weapons.

Okay, maybe I tell a lie: The Vindicators where my first big worry. The Tacticals came close after them though, especially after I killed two of the Vindicators with my tanks and my Tank Destroyer.
Anyway, I am not the one whining about how bad an already incredibly good and under priced basic troops choice is.

Scared of Vindicators AND Tactical Marines? Wasn't scared of LotD when they make a mockery of the thing that makes Guardsmen durable? What kinda fantasy world do you play in?

He'/she's probably just inexperienced.

I know personally that when I first began running LoTD with their supplement that no one thought much of them.... Until they realized that they realized that they absolutely wreck face with plasma or melta weapons and with the animus malorum there too they were a pain to remove.


Now everyone at my flgs is scared of them and someone actually told me that they were too op... Haven't ran them since
Tacticals though? You shouldn't be worried about them unless they are coming out of a drop pod or there are at least 50 of them on the table.

If you even bothered to read I A) Did not know they where coming till they turned up on turns 3 and 4 and B) They where in 2 small 5 man sections which failed to achieve anything as the Flamer one dropped in beyond flame range and the Melta one whiffed massively on its two rolls.
The Melta one was stuck in front of a Thunderer and 2 Exterminators and promptly suffered a terminal existence failure and the Flamer one then tried to assault my CCS next turn.... And was stuck there for the rest of the game as my command section promptly butchered them over three turns.

Also you have to remember that all he had on the table at the beginning was the Vindicare, the Scouts and Telion, the Devestators whom had missile launchers, the Vindicators and the Transports. Now if I had known about those LotD and if, when they did come in, they had been in larger 10 man sections I would have been more worried about them than that.
But they where in two small 5 man sections. A 3++ save is great until someone force feeds you a metric shitton of firepower over the space of a single turn. As the rule goes: "Force them to roll enough dice and they will eventually fail some rolls"

As for the Vindicators: My only long ranged AT stuff was my single tank destroyer and these Vindicators where in a linebreaker formation. To use my Melta guns I had to get really close... Also, does Crew Shaken/Stunned affect the blast? Im not sure because when they fired one of them was shaken but the formation is silent on the matter.

The Scouts where no real worry as I have an Eradicator. Turn two and I finished off what was left.

If they chose the Flamer, they were actually bad because they weren't capitalizing on one of their special rules of Ignoring Cover. You capitalize that with Plasma or Melta Weapons, and either a Combi-Melta or Combi-Grav.
It's not our fault your opponent isn't good, but don't pretend your anecdotal evidence is worth anything. Math can show you why Tactical Squads are bad, and why LotD squads are actually, you know, scary. Ignoring Cover is a REALLY good rule.

I guess it's also the special/heavy/combi on a 5 men squad that don't need transport and is relentless

what about all 3+ saves.

I understand that they are not as good pre-4th edition, just because of codex saturation, and I'm fine with that.

However, is it still a good save, IE: incubi, crisis suits, all 3+ MCs.

Does it still stand up, or is it crap? Especially in the current meta.

Its obviously a good save its the second best save possible for armour.

Its the other factors that determine if specific units are good. Cost movement value and ranged ability being the major components.
For some reason GW just seems to hand out 3+ for nearly free on units that already boast incredible ability in the above 3. Note that durability is right below those in importance but is trumped by any of the 3. However when combined the synergy gets stupid.. like grav cannons, add cent bodies.

What I really find funny is how grav is one of the main culprits in making marines bad.

dominuschao wrote:
Its obviously a good save its the second best save possible for armour.

Its the other factors that determine if specific units are good. Cost movement value and ranged ability being the major components.
For some reason GW just seems to hand out 3+ for nearly free on units that already boast incredible ability in the above 3. Note that durability is right below those in importance but is trumped by any of the 3. However when combined the synergy gets stupid.. like grav cannons, add cent bodies.

What I really find funny is how grav is one of the main culprits in making marines bad.

Base marines weren't good before grav, though. They haven't been good since 3th and 4th.

Whilst I don't believe a 3+ save is all that, there is one circumstance where I wish to god I had it, on Giant Chaos Spawn. They have 4+ t6 4W. All it takes is a few autocannons or a few heavy bolters to turn one into sludge.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Whilst I don't believe a 3+ save is all that, there is one circumstance where I wish to god I had it, on Giant Chaos Spawn. They have 4+ t6 4W. All it takes is a few autocannons or a few heavy bolters to turn one into sludge.

I've actually thought about using fast predator destructors with BA instead of tri-las preds.

Might not be a bad shout. The majority of MCs tend to have a 3+ though so would only be that effective in certain circumstances, although skitarii and other 4+ armies would hate it. What is it? 105pts with OCEs off the top of my head? 30pts cheaper than a baal. Not too bad.

Ya 105, 110 with dozer. Lucifer preds we call em.. although they've also been known by another name: sicaran lol.

Was just thinking cheap armor saturation even though they won't penetrate 3+ armor.

Martel732 wrote:
Was just thinking cheap armor saturation even though they won't penetrate 3+ armor.

Well 3+ armor is so bad who worries about that! *rolleyes*

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Was just thinking cheap armor saturation even though they won't penetrate 3+ armor.

Well 3+ armor is so bad who worries about that! *rolleyes*

3 X destructors don't have the mobility or firepower of scatterbikes. I'd much rather have the extra wounds of the bikes and forget about AP 4. And no, I don't fear my destructors dying to tactical squads.