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KTG17 wrote: The deaths in Nagasaki and Hiroshima spared lives in the the rest of Japan, because had they not happened, a lot more death would have followed.
No, it wouldn't, because Japan had already offered to surrender on the condition that it got to keep the emperor.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Rosebuddy wrote: Japan was starved for resources with the blockade and with nearly all its major cities being 50-90% burned to the ground. The atomic bombs were used after Imperial Japan had already offered to surrender. The idea that every last of them would fight to the death is a myth.
No. Japan had not offered surrender. They offered a cease fire, and terms which would have let them keep much of the land they had conquered. Which would have given them a few decades to rearm and start WW3 afterwards.
Not all of them would have fought to the death, but a huge portion of them would have.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 15:20:48
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Perhaps Trump was right about something on the campaign trail. We need to start handing nukes to more allies. Since NK nukes are mostly Russian and Chinese tech, perhaps we should simply let those countries know that a Nuclear armed NK means we will provide Nukes to Japan and SK?
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Perhaps Trump was right about something on the campaign trail. We need to start handing nukes to more allies. Since NK nukes are mostly Russian and Chinese tech, perhaps we should simply let those countries know that a Nuclear armed NK means we will provide Nukes to Japan and SK?
While I guess there's a chance this might have some semi-positive effect, the world has been trying almost since the creation of nukes to limit the amount of countries having them on the planet and anti-proliferation plans and meetings are still trying to reduce the number of bombs and warheads. Throwing all of that overboard to deal with a rogue state seems not really like a good idea in the long-term planning, for nobody.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 15:44:14
Perhaps Trump was right about something on the campaign trail. We need to start handing nukes to more allies. Since NK nukes are mostly Russian and Chinese tech, perhaps we should simply let those countries know that a Nuclear armed NK means we will provide Nukes to Japan and SK?
Why would Japan and South Korea accept them? Japan's population certainly does not appear to support Japan having nuclear weapons as they have previously held large protests against members of their government merely suggesting that Japan should seek nuclear weapons.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 15:59:56
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
The world has learned a lot from Saddam, Gaddafi, Ukraine, and especially India/Pakistan in 2001-2002. And even more so, the US and USSR, whom I have no doubt would have gone in direct war at some point if it hadn't been for MAD. What Kim in NK is trying to do is basically say "If you try and topple me, I am going to make it hurt a great deal in the process." I don't think Kim wants to start any kind of war at the moment, but looking how he has treated his own family, its a safe assumption that if he shows them that regard, he's going to show non-family members even less.
Up til now, I don't think anyone has really taken the US serious in doing something on its own until now, and I think its because Trump hit Syria out of the blue. Its made him look a little like a wild card himself, which is why you see the Chinese and Russians scrambling with the North Koreans to back off. Do I think Trump will start anything? Not at the moment, but this is a lot like Trump is standing on his porch with a baseball bat telling others to keep off his lawn. If you respect that he will come down off the porch, then you'll probably stick to the sidewalk. If you don't you'll probably dance on the lawn. Which is what NK has been doing the last 60 or so years.
And what NK has gotten away with is quite incredible. From the kidnapping, infiltration, sabotage, artillery fire, and even blowing up a South Koran airliner has pretty much gone unchecked. Its gone unchecked because everyone has been too much of a pussy to do anything about it. Even the South Koreans themselves do way too much appeasing (aka Sunshine Policy and so on).
You can't look at whats going on now in isolation. Its another chapter in a decades-old drama.
Then consider the increase in nationalists, extremists and neo-nazis in Europe and North America.
Sadly, even in this connected age, a lot of people are quick to forget (or disregard) their history and the many lessons we should've learned by now.
So according to you, good patriots who love the country they live in, nationalists, are the same as neo nazis ? Nazis who killed millions ?
I don't remember having killed anyone, maybe who can remind me how I'm a nazi extremist ?
"Let them drown in the Aegean".
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
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Given how much trouble insurgents cause us today, you are clearly wrong. Japan would have been a million times worse than Iraq or Afghanistan had we not used Nukes.
And again, its a myth that Japan was trying to surrender and we didn't listen. They were only trying to achieve a peace treaty which would allow them to keep as much territory as possible. With the inevitable result that the militaristic Japanese government remained in power and caused WW3 sometime at a later date.
The total surrender that the nukes achieved is what gave us a stable modern ally in the region today.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Vaktathi wrote: Japan had no resources with which to fight back with, a lot of the fears about a Japanese invasion were not supported by any real capability.
In an invasion, the US would have not just air superiority, but total air supremacy. On the seas, there was no fuel to put ships to sea or even run electric power through them in many cases. On the ground, they were out of resources to make proper ammunition and weapons, the Japanese transportation infrastructure was mostly destroyed making movement of forces and their supply difficult if not impossible, Japan had no armored units to speak of (especially that could reasonably match even a Sherman), their artillery was practically nonexistent, the population was beginning to starve, etc ad nauseum.
The idea that a broken and unsupplied Japanese army and spear wielding civilians would have stood and fought fanatically in the face of a mechanized US invasion, much less inflicted severe casualties of seven digits sometimes projected, is largely a fantasy.
Likewise, the Japanese were actively attempting to end the war with a negotiated peace through the USSR, the war could have ended without a direct invasion through a number of other means.
The atom bombs could be said to have helped end the war in the exactly the way the US wanted it ended in the greater global geopolitical scheme of things, but they were not necessary to end the war quickly or avoid a direct invasion. These often get conflated as being the same thing, but are not necessarily.
Its pretty amazing, you've managed to describe almost to a 'T' exactly what was happening in Europe prior to the allies crossing the border into Germany. And yet, somehow, the Germans fought to the bitter end.
I cannot understand how some of you seem to dismiss the Japanese code of honor and how it conducted itself in fighting AWAY from its shores, and think for a second that it wouldn't have fought harder on it own home islands. Read up on Okinawa. Everything you described about the hopelessness of the Japanese situation DID NOT DISCOURAGE THE JAPANESE SOLDIERS FROM FIGHTING TO THE BITTER END, NOR MASSES OF CIVILIANS BLOWING THEMSELVES UP OR JUMPING OFF OF CLIFFS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 16:04:40
And what NK has gotten away with is quite incredible. From the kidnapping, infiltration, sabotage, artillery fire, and even blowing up a South Koran airliner has pretty much gone unchecked. Its gone unchecked because everyone has been too much of a pussy to do anything about it.
When the South Korean capital, its population/economic/financial/governmental center, is within artillery range of the DMZ and 5 digits worth of big guns, that tends to give people pause.
EDIT: lets take the WW2 discussion to another thread or PM's, also easy on the capslock there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 16:09:45
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
I also for slightly sorry for James Mattis as well.
Here he is on a shuttle diplomacy run, probably in contact with China, Russia, and a few others, maybe being close to getting a verbal agreement on a deal that might suit everybody...
And then Trump comes crashing into the room like a drunk uncle at Christmas, trips over onto the floor, falls asleep, and we recoil in horror as urine slowly seeps from him...
On a serious note, how can anybody strike a deal with the USA on anything these days?
You've got people on the ground working hard and putting in the legwork, only to be undermined by Trump blasting off tweets on an hourly basis. Lest we forget Trump has the nuclear codes and one of the most powerful militaries the world has ever seen at his disposal as Commander in Chief...
I wonder what FDR and Winston Churchill would think of it?
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Don't worry, we've had bad Presidents before. Some completely inept, and we got through them. Our system of checks and balances and devotion to the constitution will prevent any major disaster. And unless the democrats nominate a donkey to run for President, Trump will most likely lose re-election.
My GF is from Iran, which is pretty much a democratic president who reports to a dictator. When Trump laid down the first Visa ban (which affected her) she went into a panic and was planning on moving to Canada. I said, "Chill out and let the courts handle it." She didn't realize the back and forth that would happen before a middle ground was sort of ironed out.
I know we seem rather chaotic, but we're used to it to be honest. I don't think most Americans realize how our system looks to the outside world. But it does work!
KTG17 wrote: Its pretty amazing, you've managed to describe almost to a 'T' exactly what was happening in Europe prior to the allies crossing the border into Germany. And yet, somehow, the Germans fought to the bitter end.
I cannot understand how some of you seem to dismiss the Japanese code of honor and how it conducted itself in fighting AWAY from its shores, and think for a second that it wouldn't have fought harder on it own home islands. Read up on Okinawa. Everything you described about the hopelessness of the Japanese situation DID NOT DISCOURAGE THE JAPANESE SOLDIERS FROM FIGHTING TO THE BITTER END, NOR MASSES OF CIVILIANS BLOWING THEMSELVES UP OR JUMPING OFF OF CLIFFS.
Germany fought on because the Fuhrer didn't negotiate, at all. Once Hitler died his successor Admiral von Dönitz arranged surrender in a matter of days. The people were indoctrinated to follow orders, not be suicidal just because (though some did kill themself rather than be conquered).
Japan was a different beast. They did try to negotiate, and as I recall there was also a translation error when their counteroffer to US demamnds for surrender was delivered to the White House so their "we could talk" became "we spit on your offer". It could maybe have been negotiated, but complete surrender was wanted and they seemed unreasonable. And some were unreasonable - even after the atomic bombs part of the officer corps thought about trying to dethrone the Emperor (who agreed to surrender) and continue fighting.
I'm not sure what sort North Korea would be, but defeating it militarily isn't the problem. The damage to South Korea would be a problem, and making something useful out of the North after Kim is deposed. If he dies no one knows what sort of nutjob takes command, if he lives and surrenders things might go peacefully. But one can't make the same mistake as in Iraq, firing Saddam's army and then just not thinking about what some jobless guys with only military skills will do for a living after that. The North Korean soldiers won't found a new religious terrorist organization but marauding bands of guerillas robbing people of food and equipment wouldn't be out of the question. And the rest of the people will need jobs too. Who's going to foot the bill for all that?
Frazzled wrote: North Korea invaded South Korea. It has kidnapped SK citizens, and fired artillery into SK. They are now threatening to attack a US base. The last time that happened we buried them with nuclear fire. read a damn book before you post kid.
None of those things happened outside of the context of the Korean war and US intervention in the region.
Additionally, the use of nuclear weapons on Japanese cities was an atrocity done mainly to frighten the USSR.
Revisionist bs by people from countries who didn't lift a finger in WWII.
Bringing up that the US is the only country to have used nuclear weapons against civilians doesn't do a lot to argue that it's justified in doing so again.
Indeed so don't ever ever ever feth with us and attack us. Why doesn't NK understand that?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
"They were hardly going to give me the job if everything was going really well, were they?" ;-)
Aye, bad for him. But at least the allies thought he had conducted the war honorably (for the most part) and only slapped him with 10 years in prison. That's pretty good for someone in the Nazi High Command.
And more seriously probably the sort of stuff we should offer the NK generals, colonels etc so they're happy to eventually retire instead of starting trouble without Kim.
You know, on reflection, this whole thing probably doesn't add up to a hill of horsegak.
We've been here before. We'll give the North Koreans some food aid and oil in return for a vague promise on limiting missle tests, it'll calm down for say, maybe a year, and we'll be back here again next year when the North Koreans have ran out of food and oil again.
Nothing is going to happen. And if I'm wrong, we'll all burn in nuclear fire anyway, and there will be nobody on dakka to say I was wrong
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: You know, on reflection, this whole thing probably doesn't add up to a hill of horsegak.
We've been here before. We'll give the North Koreans some food aid and oil in return for a vague promise on limiting missle tests, it'll calm down for say, maybe a year, and we'll be back here again next year when the North Koreans have ran out of food and oil again.
Nothing is going to happen. And if I'm wrong, we'll all burn in nuclear fire anyway, and there will be nobody on dakka to say I was wrong
Or next time this year when the US and South Korea prepare to conduct joint military excercises on the border again.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Not to insert even more US Politics into this, but are we seeing a "Wag the Dog" situation here?
President low in the polls, starting or considering starting a War for ratings?
Trump's blowhard rhetoric of course is intended to appeal to his core supporters. It's lies and bs but his trufans don't believe that and ignore all the evidence that contradicts their view of things.
I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. ... ....
They didn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From the BBC:
At a time when nuclear war with North Korea seems a possible - if distant - threat, you'd think everyone would want the US administration to be on the same page.
But in recent weeks, statements from President Trump and his top officials appear to directly contradict each other.
President Trump's latest outburst - that the US military was "locked and loaded" ready to deal with North Korea - came just hours after his Defence Secretary Jim Mattis attempted to cool tensions by saying that diplomatic efforts were succeeding.
Here are some of the other mixed messages we've heard since North Korea's intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) test on 28 July.
Spetulhu wrote: Japan was a different beast. They did try to negotiate
June 22 - Japanese Emperor states his desire that surrender be considered and possibilities investigated (unknown to allies).
July 21 - Togo repeats to Japanese ambassador in Moscow that unconditional surrender was unacceptable.
July 26 - Potsdam Declaration: ""We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction." Japan publically rejects its terms.
August 6 - Hiroshima is bombed.
August 9 - Soviets invade Manchuria, Nagasaki is bombed.
August 10 - Japan surrenders unconditionally (especially believing the US had more bombs).
The US knew the Russians were coming, they agreed to their involvement. So this notion of the use of the bomb was just to send a message in revisionist nonsense. The atomic bombs took years to develop, and were used during an already extensive bombing campaign. The Japanese were also told the conditions, and rejected them.
In the last seven months of the campaign alone, firebombing resulted in massive destruction in 67 Japanese cities, as many as 500,000 Japanese deaths and some 5 million more made homeless. Had the atomic bombs not been dropped, more of that would have continued. Everyone should read up on Operation Meetinghouse, the most destructive bombing raid in history, and it wasn't with an atom bomb.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/11 20:41:30
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
Yeah, Kim made very clear threats and stated to fire missiles just off a key US military base in region.
Saying that any attack will be met by aggressive and decisive counter attack is not war mongering. It's fact.
Any direct attack on US and then you will see what amount of destruction a full modern military can unleash in short time.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
Yeah, Kim made very clear threats and stated to fire missiles just off a key US military base in region.
Saying that any attack will be met by aggressive and decisive counter attack is not war mongering. It's fact.
Any direct attack on US and then you will see what amount of destruction a full modern military can unleash in short time.
Missiles aren't nuclear weapons. The sea 20 miles from Guam is not a key military base.
To be clear, what NK is talking about is totally reprehensible, but it isn't a nuclear attack on the USA and doesn't merit the toddler response that Trump is giving.
Spetulhu wrote: Japan was a different beast. They did try to negotiate
So this notion of the use of the bomb was just to send a message in revisionist nonsense. The atomic bombs took years to develop, and were used during an already extensive bombing campaign. The Japanese were also told the conditions, and rejected them.
Hey, I didn't call it a message. I only pointed out that they were trying to find some way to end hostilities before that. Their conditions just weren't acceptable to the US High Command who had already determined that unconditional surrender was the only goal. Still, seeing what conventional bombs and incendiary bombs did in earlier raids (where the crippled Japanese Air Force could do nothing) the nukes might not have been strictly necessary. Someone also wanted to see what they actually DID. The notion that the Soviets would be the next enemy within only a few years was already there, and knowing what one could hit them with was important as the USSR was simply so large that one can't get bombers everywhere in force.
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
Yeah, Kim made very clear threats and stated to fire missiles just off a key US military base in region.
Saying that any attack will be met by aggressive and decisive counter attack is not war mongering. It's fact.
Any direct attack on US and then you will see what amount of destruction a full modern military can unleash in short time.
Missiles aren't nuclear weapons. The sea 20 miles from Guam is not a key military base.
To be clear, what NK is talking about is totally reprehensible, but it isn't a nuclear attack on the USA and doesn't merit the toddler response that Trump is giving.
Its not. But its also a direct threat. Also any warning? Boats and aircraft use that area too. This is not like any of the previous threats.
Civilians need protecting too. SAM battery live fire time. Down that thing the momment it crosses the sea of Japan on trajectory arc.
Agies equipped cruisers I'm sure are up to the task.
Lastly he planning to fire over Japan.
His junk ass bits of scrap metal and plumbing parts I'm sure they gonna love those fly over.
Also a gross breach of national territory.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
(The daughter used google to open a lock yesterday. I think she has some super secret google that old farts like me don't have).
3000
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