Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Then consider the increase in nationalists, extremists and neo-nazis in Europe and North America.
Sadly, even in this connected age, a lot of people are quick to forget (or disregard) their history and the many lessons we should've learned by now.
So according to you, good patriots who love the country they live in, nationalists, are the same as neo nazis ? Nazis who killed millions ?
I don't remember having killed anyone, maybe who can remind me how I'm a nazi extremist ?
Pacifists have always been the ones unintentionally promoting wars, as tyrants are eager to expand, invade and to kill if they know that noone is coming to stop them.
Hey... I didn't write that!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rosebuddy wrote: Japan is collapsing under its demographic shift because all the young people are too miserable to have children and China is set to rival and overtake the US as world economic power.
"Fixing" North Korea, IE turning it into a Western slave state, would mean a massive land invasion killing who knows how many North Koreans as well as risking the deaths of millions of South Koreans. China likely wouldn't be very happy about the massive influx of refugees and neither China nor Russia would be able to distinguish where exactly nukes are landing if that where to happen so have fun guessing what would happen.
IF war with NK resumes... it better be a total destruction of the NK leadership infrastructure.
Then, more importantly, there better be a Marshall Plan 2.0 for NK, with an eventual plan to reunify the Koreas (ala, post ww2 Germany).
... athough, I'd rather the US just simply offer a billion dollars for each nuke. That way, no horribad wars and NK get's badly needed currency.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rosebuddy wrote: Japan was starved for resources with the blockade and with nearly all its major cities being 50-90% burned to the ground. The atomic bombs were used after Imperial Japan had already offered to surrender. The idea that every last of them would fight to the death is a myth.
KTG17 wrote: The deaths in Nagasaki and Hiroshima spared lives in the the rest of Japan, because had they not happened, a lot more death would have followed.
No, it wouldn't, because Japan had already offered to surrender on the condition that it got to keep the emperor.
I'm going to politely ask you to brush up some history on this...
1) Unconditional surrender was never offered by Japan until AFTER the nukes were dropped.
2) The Emperor secretly recorded the surrender after the Nagasaki/Hiroshima bombs, knowing that the military officers would resist.
3) When these officers got wind of this, they sought to quarantine the Emperor from the public... but, by then it was too late as the recording made it out, and were publically broadcasted.
Perhaps Trump was right about something on the campaign trail. We need to start handing nukes to more allies. Since NK nukes are mostly Russian and Chinese tech, perhaps we should simply let those countries know that a Nuclear armed NK means we will provide Nukes to Japan and SK?
THey already have the technical "know how" to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
WrentheFaceless wrote: Not to insert even more US Politics into this, but are we seeing a "Wag the Dog" situation here?
President low in the polls, starting or considering starting a War for ratings?
Probably... maybe unintentionally.
I can't imagine the trio of Gen. Mattis, Gen. McMaster, and Chief of Staff Gen. Kelly would be convinced to start a war in order to "wag the dog" like Pres. Bill Clinton done in Kosovo (which imo, is an unfair characterization to Pres Clinton).
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
Yeah, Kim made very clear threats and stated to fire missiles just off a key US military base in region.
Saying that any attack will be met by aggressive and decisive counter attack is not war mongering. It's fact.
Any direct attack on US and then you will see what amount of destruction a full modern military can unleash in short time.
Missiles aren't nuclear weapons. The sea 20 miles from Guam is not a key military base.
To be clear, what NK is talking about is totally reprehensible, but it isn't a nuclear attack on the USA and doesn't merit the toddler response that Trump is giving.
Um... Guam is an extremely key military base. If I remember right, most of the refueling tankers come out of that location.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/08/11 22:47:18
Um... Guam is an extremely key military base. If I remember right, most of the refueling tankers come out of that location.
Still no justification for what Trump keeps answering by pouring more oil on the fire, really.
I'm still wondering what would be tougher than "fire and fury". And all that whining about China "not doing enough" while himself is litterally doing nothing is really laughable.
Yes, and I know that radiation from Castle Bravo reached as far as Norway and France. We're talking a full nuclear exchange here.
Ketara wrote:
Do correct me if I'm wrong, but when NK specified firing missiles around Guam, the word 'nuclear' wasn't mentioned in any way by the NK command? Every report I've seen has just has the word 'missiles', with no nuclear prefix.
They showed pictures of midrange ICBMs. They're not much threat to the average city block, let alone an Island, when tipped with a conventional explosive.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Gordon Shumway wrote: So how hard would it be to just line up one battleship from every country in the UN (they can be smaller battleships) and just say ok, now what?
Or we could just bombard them with their own media:
That is simultaneously adorable...and projectile vomit inducing.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Not to insert even more US Politics into this, but are we seeing a "Wag the Dog" situation here?
President low in the polls, starting or considering starting a War for ratings?
Trump's blowhard rhetoric of course is intended to appeal to his core supporters. It's lies and bs but his trufans don't believe that and ignore all the evidence that contradicts their view of things.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Not to insert even more US Politics into this, but are we seeing a "Wag the Dog" situation here?
President low in the polls, starting or considering starting a War for ratings?
Trump's blowhard rhetoric of course is intended to appeal to his core supporters. It's lies and bs but his trufans don't believe that and ignore all the evidence that contradicts their view of things.
WrentheFaceless wrote: Not to insert even more US Politics into this, but are we seeing a "Wag the Dog" situation here?
President low in the polls, starting or considering starting a War for ratings?
Trump's blowhard rhetoric of course is intended to appeal to his core supporters. It's lies and bs but his trufans don't believe that and ignore all the evidence that contradicts their view of things.
So is this now a politics thread?
This thread has been about international politics pertaining to the current situation with North Korea since the first post.
Any direct attack on US and then you will see what amount of destruction a full modern military can unleash in short time.
Yeah we already saw that in Iraq.
The political nonsense that followed left aside, the US invasion of Iraq is arguably among the most flawlessly executed military campaigns of all time. I don't understand your point. Unless your point is that the US can stomp flat with laughably few casualties basically any modern military, but then will 'waste' a lot of money later building that nation back up and then ultimately fail to do something that is entirely outside the scope of the military (turn a SW asian totalitarian dictatorship into a democratic utopia in a decade or so for example).
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
Plus you know, technically this war has been going on for 60+ years. He definitely didn't start it.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
exactly. A proper response to a threat against sovereign US territory is to to turn every sub and carrier we have around and park them on NK's coast and send them a detailed list of each nuke we have now targeted on Dear Leader. If they even blink wrong, nuke every god damn square foot of NK.
Any direct attack on US and then you will see what amount of destruction a full modern military can unleash in short time.
Yeah we already saw that in Iraq.
no.you didn't. That was restraint.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/12 04:15:35
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
exactly. A proper response to a threat against sovereign US territory is to to turn every sub and carrier we have around and park them on NK's coast and send them a detailed list of each nuke we have now targeted on Dear Leader. If they even blink wrong, nuke every god damn square foot of NK.
So you propose the death of millions of people and total destruction of at least two countries, one of them beeing your ally, as reaction to a threat? Not to mention the ensuing fallout trat would hit half the world including the US...
That really sounds like a solid and totaly appropriat plan... (sarcasm of)
Oh wow, the US didn't do every single thing it could to kill every last Iraqi. How gracious. Repeating how vicious the US can be is doing nothing to convince anyone that the US isn't a greater danger to the world than North Korea is.
exactly. A proper response to a threat against sovereign US territory is to to turn every sub and carrier we have around and park them on NK's coast and send them a detailed list of each nuke we have now targeted on Dear Leader. If they even blink wrong, nuke every god damn square foot of NK.
Sure. And China will totally allow US to send a warfleet with nuclear missiles so close to their borders. There is a reason they keep supporting NK for all these years.
Get real, it's not that simple.
]no.you didn't. That was restraint.
Of course it was restraint. You really think you can nuke another country like this nowadays?
The problem has never been the target. It's the neighbors...and the rest of the world seeing exactly what is happening here, and wondering "If he can do this and get away with all those blatant lies, why wouldn't he do it again for another? Maybe we're next on the list ?".
Now China has asked Trump not to use words that would exacerbate the situation even more. That's quite the thing, IMHO: another country telling a US president he should be more careful about what he's saying. The trouble is that Trump is unable to hear criticism about what he does - and he proved he can decide really stupid things when he becomes even more stubborn. He's such a wild card than the other countries know they can't trust him at all.
To be honest, I don't think Trump really wants a war here. He looks more like he's caught in the situation and its own bravado. And that's exactly why that's so dangerous and can become a war : incompetent leaders living out of reality and thinking too much of themselves enough to do the unthinkable.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/08/12 11:17:57
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
exactly. A proper response to a threat against sovereign US territory is to to turn every sub and carrier we have around and park them on NK's coast and send them a detailed list of each nuke we have now targeted on Dear Leader. If they even blink wrong, nuke every god damn square foot of NK.
So you propose the death of millions of people and total destruction of at least two countries, one of them beeing your ally, as reaction to a threat? Not to mention the ensuing fallout trat would hit half the world including the US...
That really sounds like a solid and totaly appropriat plan... (sarcasm of)
hell yes. Let that be policy.attack the US and we will exterminate your entire people. That was policy when we dealt with the native American tribes and I like them way more than NK. Besides that's existing MAD strategy right now.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Rosebuddy wrote: Well, the US could for starters stop threatening them with destruction. The US could stop invading countries that don't obey it. That sort of thing.
That's a good point - a lot of this is driven by Bush's decision to invade Iraq - that undid the presumption of sovreign borders.
However, that decision is done now. The question is what we do that can restore the assumption of sovreignty, while also stopping NK getting out of hand.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vraptor98 wrote: How about a healthy dose of colonisation? I'm just saying they'd be better off under foreign rule anyway.
Because no-one at all has regretted anything about Iraq or Afghanistan.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: The North Koreans are about to discover a universal truth: nuclear weapons are the most useless thing mankind ever invented.
If North Korea strikes first, it gets wiped out. If they keep them for defence, then nobody was going to invade them anyway.
Truman got a bit of use out of a couple of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
godardc wrote: So according to you, good patriots who love the country they live in, nationalists, are the same as neo nazis ? Nazis who killed millions ?
I don't remember having killed anyone, maybe who can remind me how I'm a nazi extremist ?
I know ENglish isn't your first language, but there's a difference between patriotism and nationalism. Patriotism is a love of your country, and willingness to die to defend it. Nationalism is a belief that your country is best, and that it needs to or has right to dominate other countries around it.
Pacifists have always been the ones unintentionally promoting wars, as tyrants are eager to expand, invade and to kill if they know that noone is coming to stop them.
That's hopelessly simplistic.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rosebuddy wrote: Japan is collapsing under its demographic shift because all the young people are too miserable to have children and China is set to rival and overtake the US as world economic power.
Collapsing is an absurd word to use to describe Japan. Just ridiculous. They have serious demographic issues, no doubt, but any suggestion they're going to collapse due to it is goofball nonsense.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/08/12 14:15:25
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
China has a serious demographic problem thanks to the one child policy. There is a big surplus of young men compared to women, and there is going to be a big surplus of pensioners in the future.
I think Japan will cope well with their population decline. It's a crowded country anyway and they will boost productivity to compensate for the lack of workers. In the worst case they can open the borders to more immigration. If they are going to do that they should do it sooner rather than later, and let in smaller numbers of immigrants over a longer period, to allow them to be absorbed into the local culture.
I don't think anyone knows the ideal population for a country. It isn't infinity, so population growth has to stop at some point. We are not in the realms of Malthus by any means, but the south-east of England seems rather overburdened in some areas, causing transport congestion and a lack of housing. However, it can be argued that the solution is to build up other regions of the UK rather than keep trying to cram more and more people into London and the Home Counties. (And Oxfordshire.)
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Japan and China both have population issues. But Japan at least has a balanced ratio of men to women and a democratic government.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Kilkrazy wrote: China has a serious demographic problem thanks to the one child policy. There is a big surplus of young men compared to women, and there is going to be a big surplus of pensioners in the future.
I think Japan will cope well with their population decline. It's a crowded country anyway and they will boost productivity to compensate for the lack of workers. In the worst case they can open the borders to more immigration. If they are going to do that they should do it sooner rather than later, and let in smaller numbers of immigrants over a longer period, to allow them to be absorbed into the local culture.
I don't think anyone knows the ideal population for a country. It isn't infinity, so population growth has to stop at some point. We are not in the realms of Malthus by any means, but the south-east of England seems rather overburdened in some areas, causing transport congestion and a lack of housing. However, it can be argued that the solution is to build up other regions of the UK rather than keep trying to cram more and more people into London and the Home Counties. (And Oxfordshire.)
Japan has already been planning ahead.
There working on things like automation, and assisted lift systems for elderly, powered assisted walking systems.
Though a small part, they reduce the sheer manpower requirements for old age care etc.
Other industries can do same to counter there reduced working population such as exoskeleton lifting for various industry applications.
Japan is more prepared for this shift than the likes of China.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
djones520 wrote: I'm not a fan of Trump, that's been made pretty clear, but I'm tired of this "he's trying to start a war" crap.
A foreign nation threatened to strike us with nuclear weapons. Our response has been stern words.
And he's trying to start a war? Seriously, there is plenty of bad gak to point out. A nations leader speaking in defense of his nation is not one of them.
exactly. A proper response to a threat against sovereign US territory is to to turn every sub and carrier we have around and park them on NK's coast and send them a detailed list of each nuke we have now targeted on Dear Leader. If they even blink wrong, nuke every god damn square foot of NK.
So you propose the death of millions of people and total destruction of at least two countries, one of them beeing your ally, as reaction to a threat? Not to mention the ensuing fallout trat would hit half the world including the US...
That really sounds like a solid and totaly appropriat plan... (sarcasm of)
hell yes. Let that be policy.attack the US and we will exterminate your entire people. That was policy when we dealt with the native American tribes and I like them way more than NK. Besides that's existing MAD strategy right now.
This is brilliant and absolutely not insanely murderous in the slightest. Heck, let's scale it down! Commit a crime and we throw your whole family in prison, that'll act as a deterrent! Get the death penalty? Sorry, Junior, hope you're not scared of needles! It's okay because we used to kill the Native Americans all the time.
How about we just don't immediately resort to mass genocide? If the North Koreans nuke a U.S. city, then, sure let's turn Dear Leader and his goons into ash but until then I think we can think of better ideas then fething encouraging them to fire the damned nuke in the first place.
Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far!
TheCustomLime wrote: How about we just don't immediately resort to mass genocide? If the North Koreans nuke a U.S. city, then, sure let's turn Dear Leader and his goons into ash but until then I think we can think of better ideas then fething encouraging them to fire the damned nuke in the first place.
For a missile with a conventional warhead and a conventional war nuclear weapons are overkill. If they fire nukes, the all bets are off.
Regular carrier and bomber air groups. They are easily ernough to deliver a pretty brutal counter attack.
Once US gears up it can lay down a lot of heavy duty firepower onto targets.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Frazzled wrote: hell yes. Let that be policy.attack the US and we will exterminate your entire people. That was policy when we dealt with the native American tribes and I like them way more than NK. Besides that's existing MAD strategy right now.
Good. But only if this also applies to when Americans attack America. I'll bring popcorn!
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Frazzled wrote: hell yes. Let that be policy.attack the US and we will exterminate your entire people. That was policy when we dealt with the native American tribes and I like them way more than NK. Besides that's existing MAD strategy right now.
Good. But only if this also applies to when Americans attack America. I'll bring popcorn!
Except New Mexico. They are so hard core , they nuked themselves!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Spinner wrote: It's okay because we used to kill the Native Americans all the time.
'Used to'???? You still fething do and don't give enough of a gak for it to get news coverage. They found that you were 57% more likely to be shot by police for 'walking while Native' than 'driving while black'.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: Except New Mexico. They are so hard core , they nuked themselves!
And Nevada?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/12 23:56:12
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Spinner wrote: It's okay because we used to kill the Native Americans all the time.
'Used to'???? You still fething do and don't give enough of a gak for it to get news coverage. They found that you were 57% more likely to be shot by police for 'walking while Native' than 'driving while black'.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Frazzled wrote: Except New Mexico. They are so hard core , they nuked themselves!
And Nevada?
Hey what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Spinner wrote: It's okay because we used to kill the Native Americans all the time.
'Used to'???? You still fething do and don't give enough of a gak for it to get news coverage. They found that you were 57% more likely to be shot by police for 'walking while Native' than 'driving while black'.
I wish it got more coverage. My reply was intended as a comment on what I quoted rather than any actual position I hold. Sorry, maybe I should have doubled down on the sarcasm.
Japan are now reacting.
as expected there bringing there Missile defense systems to readiness.
There taking KIm seriously on his words/
There deploying Patriot batteries, and got Agies destroyers ready and armed to intercept anything headed there way guarding the Sea of Japan.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/08/13 10:52:55
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
The Empire 
1500 pts
: 
