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Red Thirst likely is the chapter trait I would think; inexorable advance for Death Guard isn’t listed as “legion trait”; it’s the only one in the book. Inexorable advance does list battle forged as a prerequisite though, which Red Thirst doesn’t seem to.

Black rage is currently 6++ save with bonus attack on the charge. I doubt that will change

 Mr Morden wrote:
The Red Thirst - I thought the new Primaris had removed the flaws in the gene seed?

There are still non-Primaris marines around.

The Red Thirst isn’t necessarily the flaw. Cawl said he left some stuff in Big E intended to be there. No Death Company Primaris is telling for “flaw removed”.

The Black Rage wasn't the "Flaw" of the Blood Angels, it was a product of Sanguinius Death.
The Red Thirst is the blood angel's geneseed flaw.

 Galas wrote:
The Black Rage wasn't the "Flaw" of the Blood Angels, it was a product of Sanguinius Death.
The Red Thirst is the blood angel's geneseed flaw.

Even sanguinius thinks so, but! What if the emperor WANTED them to have the flaw dum dum duuuuum.

...so what did Cawl remove and what did the Emperor intend to be there. We know Sanguinius viewed it as a flaw and was ashamed of it. The Emperor may have put it there intentionally. 10,000 years have gone by and the guy who’s the definitive word on it is a skeleton in a chair. I’m not saying I disagree with you, but I’d say Red Thirst being army wide and DC strat not applying to named characters and Primaris is telling of GWs current stance.

bobafett012 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:
FWIW, the guys at Frontlinegaming, who are tournament minded folks, have seen the codex and say BA players will be happy. I'm unsure how exactly to take that, but I'm overall optimistic.

Yeah, those guys are idiots. From their review of 8th and on they are nothing but GW sycophants. I like a lot of what GW has been doing with 8th BUT it's certainly not perfect in any way, shape, or form and it's ok to say that, but those guys's business is totally based on GW sales so of course they will say nothing but positives which just makes them lack any credibility in my opinion.

But back to the blood angels topic, I really think they need some heavy duty CC help in the form of rules. From decent of angels, their CT, and red thirst, and some changes to units wargear, prices, and maybe even stats.

I don't know if this has been said or not, but on a positive note, in the leaked chapter approved, inferno pistols, and hand flamers came way down in price. 20 to 11, and 8 to 3. So i think with that we can expect angelus boltguns and encarmine weapons to come way down too which is big. Hopefully Blood Talons are fixed to actually do something better or different than Fists too...

The Frontline gaming guys managed to turn their hobby Into their livelihood. If only we could all be such idiots...

As for the sneak peaks...pretty happy so far.

From what I've seen in the fluff, Cawl removed the *bad* parts (i.e. Black Rage). They still get red thirst, and cosmetic things are unchanged (hence why there are still coal-black Salamander primaris)

So, now that we saw a few BA stuff, how long do you guys thing we have until Martel complains that BA still sucks and they will never be playable?

Every day more will be revealed, spurring disappointment every passing day, but the book won’t be completely written off until Saturday, 12 days from now, when it’s flicked through in roughly 6 minutes and deemed an unholy dumpster fire. Or a joke from the laughing god. Either way; it won’t take long. It’s lookig very positive for the average BA player so far though!

I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).

It costs a Command Point while you write up your army list to be triggered in a hero.

Not "in a unit".

See? Not triggered "in a unit". It lets you have Death Company Chaplains, Lieutenants, or Captains(except for Primaris).

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).

It cost a CP to give it to a character. DC and Lemartes will likely get it as standard. I agree it is probably the same as in the Index. If it was better then it likely wouldn't stack to a 5+ with "Gift of Foresight".

Is it ground-breaking? Probably not but +1A and 6+FNP is not bad, especially if the rumoured double-attack is real. Imagine a Captain with an extra attack, attacking twice with a Thunder Hammer that does 4 points of damage (relic) and wounds everything in the game that is not T8 on a 2+.

It is shame that the Primaris again gets segregated and don't get to share a lot of the stuff. I don't understand why GW insists on keeping them bland and flavourless. Death Company Reivers would have looked awesome and been quite thematic.

 Karhedron wrote:

Is it ground-breaking? Probably not but +1A and 6+FNP is not bad

Black rage on 1 wound marine is a trash as it saves damage. So if a 2 damage comes up - you need wo 6+ to save it.
It's horrible.
Basicly it works against just small fire arms, and even then - only 6+
It's getting better on dreadnought though

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).

It costs a Command Point while you write up your army list to be triggered in a hero.

Not "in a unit".

See? Not triggered "in a unit". It lets you have Death Company Chaplains, Lieutenants, or Captains(except for Primaris).

Sorry, triggered wasn't the right word. But turning a character into Death Company would be incredibly potent if effectively doubles their attacks. Especially on a Captain sporting a 4++.

 Crimson wrote:
It is shame that the Primaris again gets segregated and don't get to share a lot of the stuff. I don't understand why GW insists on keeping them bland and flavourless. Death Company Reivers would have looked awesome and been quite thematic.

I'm not sure what you mean. Primaris aren't segregated, they have the same flavor as the rest of the chapter. That they didn't do a primaris version of a very specific unit (that usually varies from overpriced to ineffective) doesn't mean they're bland and flavorless.

And really death company models aren't particularly unique looking. If you want some black armored Primmies, you can just paint that.

I suspect space wolves will get ridiculous primaris mutants, however. Holding off on the special snowflake chapter suggests more than just a churn and burn codex to get it done.

Voss wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is shame that the Primaris again gets segregated and don't get to share a lot of the stuff. I don't understand why GW insists on keeping them bland and flavourless. Death Company Reivers would have looked awesome and been quite thematic.

I'm not sure what you mean. Primaris aren't segregated, they have the same flavor as the rest of the chapter. That they didn't do a primaris version of a very specific unit (that usually varies from overpriced to ineffective) doesn't mean they're bland and flavorless.

And really death company models aren't particularly unique looking. If you want some black armored Primmies, you can just paint that.

I suspect space wolves will get ridiculous primaris mutants, however. Holding off on the special snowflake chapter suggests more than just a churn and burn codex to get it done.

I think you need to take a look at the blood angel model range if you think Primaris looks anything similar. Just painting Primaris black will leave out a massive amount of extra detail the Death Company models have.

Bremon wrote:
Every day more will be revealed, spurring disappointment every passing day, but the book won’t be completely written off until Saturday, 12 days from now, when it’s flicked through in roughly 6 minutes and deemed an unholy dumpster fire. Or a joke from the laughing god. Either way; it won’t take long. It’s lookig very positive for the average BA player so far though!

I've been thinking of finally getting into a marine list. I keep wanting to do lots of infantry with jump packs, hitting things... from the sounds of it, Blood Angels sound like a good fit.

 Aesthete wrote:

Bremon wrote:
Every day more will be revealed, spurring disappointment every passing day, but the book won’t be completely written off until Saturday, 12 days from now, when it’s flicked through in roughly 6 minutes and deemed an unholy dumpster fire. Or a joke from the laughing god. Either way; it won’t take long. It’s lookig very positive for the average BA player so far though!

I've been thinking of finally getting into a marine list. I keep wanting to do lots of infantry with jump packs, hitting things... from the sounds of it, Blood Angels sound like a good fit.

Jump pack heavy armies, that's what I play, are not very good currently. They either don't hit hard enough or too expensive which leads to not enough bodies, plus they can't reliably get into CC off DS. Another major issue, is that ASMs are almost totally worthless at the moment. They cost the same as Khorne berzerkers, but don't score, and don't compare stats/rules wise. they get the JP and that's it. the loss of the attack hurt pretty badly.

The red thirst is pretty good, and helps with the not hitting hard enough part IF you can get into CC, which is unlikely off DS currently. Even with Lemartes re-roll your only about 50/50 or less. Maybe we'll get a decent of angels rule back that can somehow help get us into CC more reliably. If i Drop down with 3 squads, I need to be able to at least get 2 of them in, not 1, because assault squads standing out in the open are dead assault squads.

It does look like we are getting some pretty hefty points cuts, specially on some of our unique wargear like inferno pistols and hand flamers, now hopefully we also get the angelus boltguns and encarmine weapon cost reductions because currently they are way over priced and this is what leads to so few of bodies.

I do like that we're getting the flyers from the space marine book, a pair of those is going to be sweet with a bunch of jump packers!

We'll see, i'm still very wary because it's been a few editions now since JP BA were any good, and I have no faith in GW to make them better.

 Kirasu wrote:

I think you need to take a look at the blood angel model range if you think Primaris looks anything similar. Just painting Primaris black will leave out a massive amount of extra detail the Death Company models have.

The X's and doo-dads? Pass. I take most of those off my BA anyway. I use the DC models primarily as Vets and Sergeants, largely for the bolters and shoulders. The other smidgens of extra detail make little appreciable difference. It's mostly for the shoulder pads and one or two extras that suggest the model is slightly more important than the rest. The BA specific sprue takes care of that nicely.

But then I have very little tolerance for the busy look of a lot of GW models, and particularly for marines prefer a clean and simple aesthetic. I just happen to like the color scheme and the uplifted savages theme. The vampires and wangst I actively ignore.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).

They don’t pile in twice sadly. There might be a strat for it, but the unit doesn’t have it.

 theharrower wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).

They don’t pile in twice sadly. There might be a strat for it, but the unit doesn’t have it.

Maybe you heard something - will there be something different for successor chapters? I mean traits/relics/stratagems?
It was so vague in article whether there be some rules for successors or not :|

 Omega-soul wrote:

 theharrower wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).

They don’t pile in twice sadly. There might be a strat for it, but the unit doesn’t have it.

Maybe you heard something - will there be something different for successor chapters? I mean traits/relics/stratagems?
It was so vague in article whether there be some rules for successors or not :|

I haven’t heard one way or the other. Details I have are pretty sparse at the moment. Hopefully I’ll get a proper look soon.

 Omega-soul wrote:

 theharrower wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I really am expecting to see the Black Rage be more than 6+ Ignore Wounds and an additional attack on the charge. It costs a command point to trigger it in a unit. I am expecting it to be 6+ Ignore Wounds and Pile In Twice (the Khorne Berserker mechanic).

They don’t pile in twice sadly. There might be a strat for it, but the unit doesn’t have it.

Maybe you heard something - will there be something different for successor chapters? I mean traits/relics/stratagems?
It was so vague in article whether there be some rules for successors or not :|

Sounds like no:

All Blood Angels successors use the Red Thirst and other Blood Angels rules too – as if Gabriel Seth needed to get even deadlier…

Obviously Seth will have his own unique character rules, but it sounds like a Kantor and Crimson Fist situation to me, i.e. same rules as their Iron Warrior papas.



Jokes aside, point is, if they're getting all their parent rules, they're unlikely to get their own rules on top.

bobafett012 wrote:
We'll see, i'm still very wary because it's been a few editions now since JP BA were any good, and I have no faith in GW to make them better.

Thanks for the run-down, much appreciated. Even if jump pack Blood Angels aren't competitive, if they're the best iteration of (human) jump pack assault I might still go for it... there's something about flying around hitting things that I find so very appealing.

So far this all looks amazing, +1 to wound in the first round of combat regardless of a who charged (basically an even better Furious Charge) is awesome, especially combined with the Lieutenant's reroll to wound.
Strategems look great too, loving the Death Visions one, and the Artisan of War relic is amazing (four damage thunder hammer anyone?)

Like the touch that the +1 to wound roll is basically same as blood angels have in 30k. Ties them up.

That warlord trait that gives a weapon +1 to the dmg. Would that give the Boltstorm Guantlet +1 dmg to both the fist and pistol, as they both come under the one weapon? If so, that'd make the Gravis Captain pretty beast even in shooting