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I really need a stats for a Named characters in-built warlord traits to see what they get?
If anyone has a codex hearby pretty-please could you spoil that?
from wh40k 4chan: Heroic Bearing: All friendly BLOOD ANGELS units withing 6" autopass morale tests. Dante has this as his mandatory trait.
Yay... Dante just keeps getting worse and worse.
Yeah I was disappointed in this too. Morale warlord traits are not my favorite at all, specially for SM armies in general with ATSKNF. He's one of the most expensive characters of all the SM named characters at 215 points and tbh, Azreal at 170, literally blows him out of the water in CC, special rules, and auras, and so does Calgar at 200 points. He should be in the 180 point range imo for what he does, or have another special ability. He literally only has chapter master. the rest is gear and he's not carrying better gear than say Azreal.
One of the key things with Dante compared to the other options though is SPEED. Compared to how Chapter Masters and Captains worked last edition, you kinda treat him the same way. Plus, I don't know if Death Company still have Fearless so this is a good stock trait to go with for a large amount of them
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Summary of the major points changes from the MWG review:
Gabriel Seth - bunch of buffs including Chapter Master, extra AP, extra hit on 6 in the Fight Phase
No more sang Priests with jump pack/bike in codex. Still in index. Ditto for tons of other index-only options.
lib dread 20pts cheaper
termie lib down 25pts
Chaplain termie down 15pts
Astorath's weapon +1s
Tycho the Lost new "dead mans hand" (Melee S:user AP-2 Dd3)
Cpt Tycho also gains dead man's hand
termie captain down 15pts
16 new units (lieutenants, primaris stuff, planes, anti air vehicles, etc)
techmarine down 13pts
Tactical squad - sergeant may now take a Melta Bomb
Sanguinary Guard down 2 points
Chapter Banner nerfed - was immune to morale, now +1LD. Bonus to wound rolls stays the same.
Sanguinary Novitiate new unit (identical to SM apothecary, just has a Bloody Blood Blood name)
DC Dread down 38pts
Terminator Ancient new unit
Company Champion down 16pts
Terminator assault squad down 5ppm
Furioso Dread down 52 points
Blood Talons now S+4 -2AP 3Damage, reroll failed hit and wound rolls for this weapon
Assault marines now get melta and plasma guns
So it looks like the only bangle-specific stuff that didn't get good changes would be the Baal Preds and Sanguinary Guard. Death Company and Fancy Dreadnoughts are definitely sitting pretty right about now.
Anyone know what a "Sanguinary Novitiate" is?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/04 13:45:12
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
The definition of 'novitiate' is a novice in a religious order. A Sanguinary Novitiate would therefore literally be a novice Sanguinary Priest.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
The definition of 'novitiate' is a novice in a religious order. A Sanguinary Novitiate would therefore literally be a novice Sanguinary Priest.
More importantly...can the Sanguinary Novitiate have a jump pack or ride a bike?
Nope. Another article has the dataslate, he is the exact same as the Apothecary.
I was confused and thought he might be some kind of cool sanguinary guard/primaris marine crossover. Stupid GW naming conventions lol.
All bike/jump pack variants got removed vis a vis the "no model no rules in the codex" policy, but theyre still usable through the index as per usual.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Tiberius501 wrote: The fluff for it is that a group of Primaris Intercessors and their Lieutenant were performing a small scale assault on a planet, where a much larger threat has been discovered (which will be different depending on my opponent), so a Libararian dread leading some Archangels are coming down to relieve them.
Spoiler:
Not sure if it's particularly competitive haha, but it should be fun I think
--- [BATTALION]---
HQ - Sanguinary Priest w/ jump pack and power fist
- Primaris Lieutenant
TROOP
- 10x Intercessors w/ Auto boltrifles
- 5x Intercessors w/ normal boltrifles
- 5x Intercessors w/ normal boltrifles
It's sitting around 1970pts like that. Humming and harring over swapping out the priest and a Sanguinary Guard with the Sanguinor. That puts me at 1999-2001pts, depending on the price of the ancient. But with the priest aiding the guard with his +1 strength, they're wounding most infantry and elites on 2's on the charge, which is glory. But the Sanguinor would give them all extra attacks which would probably help more in the long run, so not sure haha
EDIT: planning on giving the ancient the 5+ disgustingly resilient standard relic, and my warlord (Libby dread) the +1 dmg warlord trait
Unfortunately they changed Death Masks on Sang Guard. It's the whole unit or no one. Still 2 ppm.
There's no confusion, they meant Advancing. You'd like it to allow shooting too, sure, but it seems that wasn't their intent.
Ok, why would i advance my baal pred D6+6 when i cannot fire any of my guns, because they all are heavy ?
Because... you put heavy flamers on it, so you need to get up the board in turn 1 so you're in range of something turn 2?
In range of being charged so I can't shoot you mean. Lucifer Engines are a joke. I really like the Dex, but the trifecta of fail is Dante, DC, and Baal Pred. Really bummed since that is a lot of our key stuff (especially DC).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/04 16:35:04
–The Harrower Artist, Game Designer, and Wargame Veteran
http://dedard.blogspot.com
Baal pred I can definitely agree (though in my index the Flamestorm at least is an assault weapon - did they FAQ that?) it's just terrible, no way to make it good for the high points cost. Gun to my head had to use them, I'd probably bring 4 preds, 2 baal with twin assault and two HBs, 2 4-las preds, and try to make use of Killshot which would be OK on the Baals....but theyre just so goddamn expensive.
Death Company though - what makes you say they're so bad? Seems like they've got a few things going for them, namely a fairly cheap character to give them that vital reroll on the charge, a number of solid stratagems, and good synergy with the Red Thirst rule since S4 is arguably the best strength to be at to make use of that rule. Just run 'em with Chainswords and the occasional Power Sword/Chainsword and stick em near Lemartes, and I'd think they'd go to town. Their little "move before the game starts" is after the determination of who gets the first turn, so if you have a good out of LOS spot to stash them upon deployment, then you're good to try and make use of the stratagem, otherwise deep strike them and they've got solid odds of getting in (or you can practically guarantee they get in with 3d6 charge.)
Bring in a character on a jump pack and give him the Angels Wings relic and you can even deny the enemy overwatch on the turn they come in.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Baal pred I can definitely agree (though in my index the Flamestorm at least is an assault weapon - did they FAQ that?) it's just terrible, no way to make it good for the high points cost. Gun to my head had to use them, I'd probably bring 4 preds, 2 baal with twin assault and two HBs, 2 4-las preds, and try to make use of Killshot which would be OK on the Baals....but theyre just so goddamn expensive.
I had to double check, but it's still heavy.
the_scotsman wrote: Death Company though - what makes you say they're so bad? Seems like they've got a few things going for them, namely a fairly cheap character to give them that vital reroll on the charge, a number of solid stratagems, and good synergy with the Red Thirst rule since S4 is arguably the best strength to be at to make use of that rule. Just run 'em with Chainswords and the occasional Power Sword/Chainsword and stick em near Lemartes, and I'd think they'd go to town. Their little "move before the game starts" is after the determination of who gets the first turn, so if you have a good out of LOS spot to stash them upon deployment, then you're good to try and make use of the stratagem, otherwise deep strike them and they've got solid odds of getting in (or you can practically guarantee they get in with 3d6 charge.)
I have the Codex. They're OK, but Vets do their job better, cheaper, and with a 3++ from Storm Shields. When Berzerkers got redone, the Blood Angels community was expecting something to change with them to bring them more in line. That didn't happen which was a real bummer. Double activation, a 5+ FNP, or a point reduction would have been welcome. FNP was our rule before anyone else had it. It started at a 4+, went to a 5+, and now a 6+. I'm just bitter. They weren't touched from the Index. Copy paste. I'll still use them as it's my favorite unit, but they're glass cannons now. Berzerkers are cheaper and do more. It's stupid.
the_scotsman wrote: Bring in a character on a jump pack and give him the Angels Wings relic and you can even deny the enemy overwatch on the turn they come in.
There are a lot of great combos. No doubt. Our key 3 units needed some love that they didn't get. Still the best Dex we've had in a long time. I can work with this.
–The Harrower Artist, Game Designer, and Wargame Veteran
http://dedard.blogspot.com
Huh. That's strange. I don't have the codex in hand, but I am sitting here with my Index on the profile of the Baal Pred and the Flamestorm Cannon is printed as "Assault D6", but when you look at it in the Space Marines Wargear List in the back it's listed as "Heavy D6".
Maybe it got FAQed.
You're talking about Vanguard Veterans I assume? 2ppm less, lose out on Black Rage and access to Lemartes/move before the game starts stratagem. I dunno, I'm not seeing it, the Death Company would seem to be massively more able to get into combat, and then they dish out 25% more damage when they get there for 10% more points. You can drop vanvets and use the 3d6 assault stratagem, but the max unit size is 10. I'd rather have 15 Death Company with Lemartes to maximise the use I get out of the stratagem.
They're certainly more glass cannon against anti-elite weapons with the lack of storm shields, but for an alpha strike unit I'm going to dump most of my cp's into I think I'd rather have the increased damage and unit size cap.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess we will just have to wait until Chapter Approved 2018 for a decent amount of point reductions. Or not. I am not counting on it.
Yeah they barely reduced the points on furiosos, DC dreads, librarian dreads, sanguinary guard, intercessors, aggressors, whirlwinds, drop pods, vindicators, all the terminator characters, assault terminators, stalkers, inceptors, or librarians AT ALL.
When will GW release a codex with a decent number of points decreases? barely ANYTHING got buffed!
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
This is the way DA and BA should have always been. I play a vanilla biker list. Used to be White Scars, now I count them as Salamanders. They've been Shelved for the time being... I'm on th e lookout for any good SM combos.
I have the Codex. They're OK, but Vets do their job better, cheaper, and with a 3++ from Storm Shields. When Berzerkers got redone, the Blood Angels community was expecting something to change with them to bring them more in line. That didn't happen which was a real bummer. Double activation, a 5+ FNP, or a point reduction would have been welcome. FNP was our rule before anyone else had it. It started at a 4+, went to a 5+, and now a 6+. I'm just bitter. They weren't touched from the Index. Copy paste. I'll still use them as it's my favorite unit, but they're glass cannons now. Berzerkers are cheaper and do more. It's stupid.
While I agree with a lot of your thoughts, I think the DC are quite a bit better than your giving them credit for. In comparison to Zerkers, they are 1 point more expensive, or 4 with JP. Zerkers have a slightly better statline with the extra 1 str, but don't DC have the red thirst which is really even better than their higher str as the DC will hit on 3+ all the way up to T7 with chain/power swords. this gets better with axes for only 4 points. With JPs you don't need to pay the Rhino tax. Berzerkers get chainaxes and that's it, DC can take a wide array of wargear. They are slightly more survivable after they getinto CC with 6+ FnP, which is where my biggest beef is. I remember the 4+ sang priest days, but I would be good with 5+ at least on them. DC can get more attacks easier I believe. They both come with 2 base attacks and have a 3rd with chainswords, but DC get the 4th attack when charging from black rage and an easy 5th attack from unleash rage, plus if you have characters like Lemartes, which i'm sure everyone will be using with DC, buffs them even more. I probably missed some things too but there are my thoughts off the top of my head.
I never believed they were just going to copy and paste the Berzerker double attack. I was hoping for a slight change but I still think they are a pretty damn good unit.
Now let me go bitch about the gakky DA preview....
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Not gonna lie, this is probably gonna be better than the Vanilla Codex, AND it looks like the Dark Angels one is gonna be better too.
Not for Ravenwing or Deathwing....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/04 22:27:04
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess we will just have to wait until Chapter Approved 2018 for a decent amount of point reductions. Or not. I am not counting on it.
Yeah they barely reduced the points on furiosos, DC dreads, librarian dreads, sanguinary guard, intercessors, aggressors, whirlwinds, drop pods, vindicators, all the terminator characters, assault terminators, stalkers, inceptors, or librarians AT ALL.
When will GW release a codex with a decent number of points decreases? barely ANYTHING got buffed!
Only four of those things are BA only. The others were effectively changed in Chapter Approved anyway. Thanks, GW for not gaking on us like last edition by charging us more points for the same thing because we paint our models red.
Death Company, Baal Predators, and Commander Dante all remain overpriced at best, hilariously so at worst. Our Strategems that allow our army to run as thematically appropriate are all overpriced. The Baal Predator doesn't even work in its current form. Yay, it can advance a ton, for what?!
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess we will just have to wait until Chapter Approved 2018 for a decent amount of point reductions. Or not. I am not counting on it.
Yeah they barely reduced the points on furiosos, DC dreads, librarian dreads, sanguinary guard, intercessors, aggressors, whirlwinds, drop pods, vindicators, all the terminator characters, assault terminators, stalkers, inceptors, or librarians AT ALL.
When will GW release a codex with a decent number of points decreases? barely ANYTHING got buffed!
Only four of those things are BA only. The others were effectively changed in Chapter Approved anyway. Thanks, GW for not gaking on us like last edition by charging us more points for the same thing because we paint our models red.
Death Company, Baal Predators, and Commander Dante all remain overpriced at best, hilariously so at worst. Our Strategems that allow our army to run as thematically appropriate are all overpriced. The Baal Predator doesn't even work in its current form. Yay, it can advance a ton, for what?!
Yeah I'm pretty amazed that it feels like there are a lot of people that lived inside a hibernation bubble and only paid attention to the BA specific index portion. NONE of those units are "new" as they're still Space Marine units and Blood Angels have the Space Marine keyword so if you really wanted to use Stalkers (which people dont) then you could include them in your BA list with no problems. Also almost all those "reduced cost" units are still bad and won't see play unless the person doesn't own any other models.
What I notice is not the lazy copy/paste of existing units and calling them "new" but the lack of changes to our ACTUAL unique units such as DC, Baals, etc which just feel incredibly lackluster. Having to spend a ton of CP to make DC playable is really an insult when Berserkers are good with their standard entry.
Not gonna lie, this is probably gonna be better than the Vanilla Codex, AND it looks like the Dark Angels one is gonna be better too.
You may not be lying but that's still an absurd statement. Are you discounting Guilliman? BA is like 95% the same as Ultramarines but without the Primarch which is way better than +1 to wound in some fight phases.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/04 23:09:15
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Saying that DC suck because they need CP to be usefull... and then you said that Berzerkers are good by their standard entry?
Berzerkers are good, no doubt, but even putting them in rhinos isn't good enough for the competitive tables.
If you see Berzerkers in competitive tables is because the Alpha Legion Stratagem, so yeah, they are comparable with DC.
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
casvalremdeikun wrote: I guess we will just have to wait until Chapter Approved 2018 for a decent amount of point reductions. Or not. I am not counting on it.
Yeah they barely reduced the points on furiosos, DC dreads, librarian dreads, sanguinary guard, intercessors, aggressors, whirlwinds, drop pods, vindicators, all the terminator characters, assault terminators, stalkers, inceptors, or librarians AT ALL.
When will GW release a codex with a decent number of points decreases? barely ANYTHING got buffed!
Only four of those things are BA only. The others were effectively changed in Chapter Approved anyway. Thanks, GW for not gaking on us like last edition by charging us more points for the same thing because we paint our models red.
Death Company, Baal Predators, and Commander Dante all remain overpriced at best, hilariously so at worst. Our Strategems that allow our army to run as thematically appropriate are all overpriced. The Baal Predator doesn't even work in its current form. Yay, it can advance a ton, for what?!
Yeah I'm pretty amazed that it feels like there are a lot of people that lived inside a hibernation bubble and only paid attention to the BA specific index portion. NONE of those units are "new" as they're still Space Marine units and Blood Angels have the Space Marine keyword so if you really wanted to use Stalkers (which people dont) then you could include them in your BA list with no problems. Also almost all those "reduced cost" units are still bad and won't see play unless the person doesn't own any other models.
What I notice is not the lazy copy/paste of existing units and calling them "new" but the lack of changes to our ACTUAL unique units such as DC, Baals, etc which just feel incredibly lackluster. Having to spend a ton of CP to make DC playable is really an insult when Berserkers are good with their standard entry.
Not gonna lie, this is probably gonna be better than the Vanilla Codex, AND it looks like the Dark Angels one is gonna be better too.
You may not be lying but that's still an absurd statement. Are you discounting Guilliman? BA is like 95% the same as Ultramarines but without the Primarch which is way better than +1 to wound in some fight phases.
I'll 100% give you one thing: The Baal Pred is hot garbage. That unit in 8th is a Defiler for certain. But saying Death Company got no change when you now have a melee focused chapter tactic that specifically peaks in effectiveness at S4 and half a dozen stratagems that work amazingly well on them is just goofy. Also, since when do Khorne Bezerkers not cost you 1cp per squad to make them playable? how many rhino-rush bazonkers are you seeing in your meta?
Unique BA units that got changes:
-Gabriel Seth
-Captain Tycho
-Tycho the lost
-DC Dreads
-Astorath
-Sanguinary Guard
-Furioso Dreads
-Librarian Dreads
Unique BA units that did not see any changes:
-Dante
-Baal Pred
-Sang Priest
-Corbulo
-Mephiston (oh, other than the WC5 power that lets him move 18", but I'm sure that doesn't make him more playable)
-Sanguinor
-Sang Ancient
even if you don't count new Warlord Traits, Relics, stratagems, psychic powers, the new chapter tactic, or any units that are from Codex Space Marine as well, an absolute crapton of stuff got buffed.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
bobafett012 wrote:While I agree with a lot of your thoughts, I think the DC are quite a bit better than your giving them credit for. In comparison to Zerkers, they are 1 point more expensive, or 4 with JP. Zerkers have a slightly better statline with the extra 1 str, but don't DC have the red thirst which is really even better than their higher str as the DC will hit on 3+ all the way up to T7 with chain/power swords. this gets better with axes for only 4 points. With JPs you don't need to pay the Rhino tax. Berzerkers get chainaxes and that's it, DC can take a wide array of wargear. They are slightly more survivable after they get into CC with 6+ FnP, which is where my biggest beef is. I remember the 4+ sang priest days, but I would be good with 5+ at least on them. DC can get more attacks easier I believe. They both come with 2 base attacks and have a 3rd with chainswords, but DC get the 4th attack when charging from black rage and an easy 5th attack from unleash rage, plus if you have characters like Lemartes, which i'm sure everyone will be using with DC, buffs them even more. I probably missed some things too but there are my thoughts off the top of my head.
galas wrote:If you see Berzerkers in competitive tables is because the Alpha Legion Stratagem, so yeah, they are comparable with DC.
Berzerkers comparable with Death Company? Berzerkers vs. Death Company is a slaughter. I'm going to quote someone from B&C, because he said it more concisely than I could:
Berzerkers with chainaxes in a rhino are, point for point, still better than anything we can muster even with the new dex. Having a unit that can put out 6 (8 on the charge if they are WE) Str6 -1AP per model for 17 pts a pop is ridiculously efficient and scary.
bobafett012 wrote:I never believed they were just going to copy and paste the Berzerker double attack. I was hoping for a slight change but I still think they are a pretty damn good unit.
I didn't either.
the_scotsman wrote:That unit in 8th is a Defiler for certain. But saying Death Company got no change when you now have a melee focused chapter tactic that specifically peaks in effectiveness at S4 and half a dozen stratagems that work amazingly well on them is just goofy. Also, since when do Khorne Bezerkers not cost you 1cp per squad to make them playable? how many rhino-rush bazonkers are you seeing in your meta?
Unique BA units that got changes:
-Sanguinary Guard
Fair enough. Death Company got a bit better, but their Power Level is laughable. I get why it is the way it is, but the unit needs a rework. At least give them fearless back. They die in droves.
What changed with the Sanguinary Guard? I'm not seeing it unless you are referring to point changes and the entire unit needing to take a Death Mask.
–The Harrower Artist, Game Designer, and Wargame Veteran
http://dedard.blogspot.com
Berzerkers comparable with Death Company? Berzerkers vs. Death Company is a slaughter. I'm going to quote someone from B&C, because he said it more concisely than I could:
Berzerkers with chainaxes in a rhino are, point for point, still better than anything we can muster even with the new dex. Having a unit that can put out 6 (8 on the charge if they are WE) Str6 -1AP per model for 17 pts a pop is ridiculously efficient and scary.
If a squad of DC charge those Berzerkers, they are toast, and likewise, if the Berzerkers charge the DC, they are toast. When models are rolling that many attacks, whoever charges wins. They don't need 8 or even 6 attacks a piece to beat a squad of DC. TBH, i'm not sure what your saying the DC should be able to do and for what cost. they are only 4 PPM more than berzerkers. would you be satisfied if they had 5+ FNP? what about 4+ FnP? what about STR 5 instead of 4? 3 attacks base instead of 2? none of that stuff is really going to keep them alive vs a full squad of Berzerkers charging and striking first.
Sure I miss the old DC from 5th but i also remember when JPs on them were like 15 points per model and basically unusable so i'm glad for being able to run them with JP. I also remember when they just ran towards the closest model every turn. We've had some bad iteration and rules for these guys. Currently they aren't that bad. They could use a slight tweak for sure, but overall, i'm pretty happy with them. Then again, i'm no waac or heavy tournament player either so maybe it's just me.
theharrower wrote: Fair enough. Death Company got a bit better, but their Power Level is laughable. I get why it is the way it is, but the unit needs a rework. At least give them fearless back. They die in droves.
What changed with the Sanguinary Guard? I'm not seeing it unless you are referring to point changes and the entire unit needing to take a Death Mask.
Probably the point changes. they were pretty significant though. 2 points off the sang guard, 6 off the angelus bolter and 1 off the encarmine sword. So a drop of 9 points per model is pretty nice. A 10 man squad for 350 points isn't the worst thing in the world for flying terminators
Sure I miss the old DC from 5th but i also remember when JPs on them were like 15 points per model and basically unusable so i'm glad for being able to run them with JP. I also remember when they just ran towards the closest model every turn. We've had some bad iteration and rules for these guys. Currently they aren't that bad. They could use a slight tweak for sure, but overall, i'm pretty happy with them. Then again, i'm no waac or heavy tournament player either so maybe it's just me.
Doubtful it's just you. The Death Company has a long and storied history of being underpowered, grossly overpriced or both.
This iteration seems fairly reasonable all told, and has several layers of buffs that can be applied, from auras, to psi powers to stratagems.
Berzerkers comparable with Death Company? Berzerkers vs. Death Company is a slaughter. I'm going to quote someone from B&C, because he said it more concisely than I could:
Berzerkers with chainaxes in a rhino are, point for point, still better than anything we can muster even with the new dex. Having a unit that can put out 6 (8 on the charge if they are WE) Str6 -1AP per model for 17 pts a pop is ridiculously efficient and scary.
If a squad of DC charge those Berzerkers, they are toast, and likewise, if the Berzerkers charge the DC, they are toast. When models are rolling that many attacks, whoever charges wins. They don't need 8 or even 6 attacks a piece to beat a squad of DC.
This.
In a Berzerker vs Death Company comparison, it is pointless to say "one unit kills the other better" because, either way, whoever charges/attacks first will win due to the other units likely being totally wiped. Likewise, it's easy to say that Berzerkers with chainaxes are worthless if they don't go first and you're able to kill the rhino 1st turn.
Overall I'm liking all the new stuff we're getting, a great chapter tactic that encourages a different style of play than is available in the standard marine codex and some general point drops on some of our unique units/wargear especially our dreads.
Whilst the Baal still seems pretty unplayable people calling our the DC as useless need to take a chill pill. They are a very effective CC unit with good weapon, movement and deployment options for a reasonable price. Are they as good as Zerkers at what Zerkers do best? NO but why should they be, Zerkers quite rightly have an excellent rule that makes them probably the best infantry assault unit in the game. Because they exist it doesn't make DC rubbish, comparing units to the best in the game at a specific roll is a poor way of evaluating a unit especially as the units are quite different in terms of loadout and special rules. Zerkers for instance are rubbish at deepstriking and moving up ruins and over impassable terrain where as DC with packs are great at that, zerkers must be rubbish ;-)
The red thirst is really good. I guess you can make a close combat “CT” very powerful because marines aren’t all that great in CC to start with.
It seems pretty decent for the basic primaris guys. Others have talked already (rightly) about how much it improves dedicated close combat units. The other thing it does is to turn ok-ish close combat guys into pretty good ones. Reivers, intercessors and (I guess) hellblasters are all made significantly more dangerous in combat by this.
I think you could quite legitimately field a whole bunch of primaris guys, so that you’d have respectable firepower, durability and cc power. It’s a very different kind of army to one based around guys with one wound, hundreds of attacks in cc but negligible shooting.
Lucifer Engines are a joke. I really like the Dex, but the trifecta of fail is Dante, 
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 
Renegades - 
8,000pts
3,000pts
3,000pts
6,000pts
2,000pts
1,000pts
