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the_scotsman wrote:I explained this so, so, SO many times, and you have proven time and time again that you are just more interested in talking to the imaginary version of my thoughts that exists only in your head, smudge. You're going on ignore until I stop participating in this thread, I'm sorry.

No worries.

Just a quick summary, for other folks who might be observing:

-Old marines do not statistically downgrade other factions' elite units by comparison, e.g. making Tau feel weak at long range by having better guns at 30" or making aspect warriors seem slow by throwing out more attacks, or making GSC seem like dinguses when marines' infiltration units get to show up the turn before AND get a 12" aura of 'now you can't use your regular ass deep strike anywhere near us'.

^That is what I was referring to when I said "things about primaris bug me that don't bug me about old marines"

Right. But Scouts ALSO get to show up the turn before, and in older editions, the LSS used to be able to disrupt deep striking/infiltration. As for "downgrading other factions" I'm personally of the opinion that all Marines, Primaris or not, should be at the Primaris tier - aka, small in number, but equal enough to stand against other factions' elite units. So, for me, that wasn't tied to the "Space Marine identity".

My examples 1, 2, and 3 from other marine players

^obviously subjective opinions that depend on the situation with the player's army. I never said that a theoretical person who had a heresy-style all boltguns all the time static marine gunline army would be able to easily incorporate primaris.

No, I'm asking if a 30k army is made up of what you'd call Space Marines.
If you think that a 30k style army is a 'Space Marine army', then why not Primaris?
If you don't think a 30k style army is a 'Space Marine army', then what are they?

But I am glad that you specify it's a *subjective* opinion, and not just "this is objectively what a Space Marine army should be".

It doesn't seem, to me, subjectively, like what GW has released so far for primaris is "just" their core units. It seems like there has been a crazy over-reliance on anti-infantry specialists and plasma specialists.

Intercessors - anti-light infantry specialists
aggressors - anti-light infantry specialists
inceptors - 1 build is anti-light infantry specialists
reivers - anti-light infantry specialists
incursors - anti-light infantry guns/all plasma guns
infiltrators - anti-light infantry specialists
invictus warsuit - all guns are anti-light infantry
redemptor dreadnought - anti-light infantry gun/plasma gun
Hellblasters - all plasma guns
Impulsor - all anti-light infantry guns

The only primaris units that break that mold are eliminators, 1 of the builds for the repulsor, 1 of the builds for the repulsor executioner, and suppressors. The number of times I have had to tell new players trying to start primaris armies since the start of 8th that the reason they're struggling is that they have one single anti-tank unit in the form of a squad of hellblasters that their opponents just shoot off the table turn 1 is absolutely crazy. It is only with the extremely recent release of the impulsor that any kind of mobile strategy has really been possible with primaris.

But they have it now, at least. I'd still call all those above units "core". They just happen to have a lot of bolter unit options, but at the same time, old Marines can *also* be called guilty of having mono-loadout armies. Primaris are getting more variety in their lineup, and right now, aside from a dedicated melee powerhouse, what is it they're lacking?

The entire reason people have had trouble adopting them is because they have been putting out weird crazy crap INSTEAD of the core units. Imagine if GW decided to release classic marines from nothing and they went

Wave 1:

Tactical marines, but with no special or heavy weapons
Whole squad of just plasma gunners
Tactical Terminators
Knife and Boltgun scout kit
Land Raider/LR Crusader
Dreadnought
Captain
Chaplain
Librarian
Apothecary
5 lieutenant sculpts

How do I kill tanks? Just take this 350pt transport for a couple lascannons? how do I move my models up the board? 350pt transport again? how do I do melee?

So GW says "DW fam we got you here's wave 2"

-New kit for shotgun scouts
-New kit for sniper scouts
-New kit for slightly different boltgun scouts
-New kit for heavy flamer/twin HB dreadnought
-New kit for captain on foot
-New kit for librarian on foot
-New kit for lieutenant

-Finally, a Rhino!

That fixes the problems you were having right :^)

I'd say you kill tanks with melee, but you should be aware that you also have access to a whole range of other units that can help (Predators and old Lander Raiders still exist in mono-Primaris Chapters, source, the Silver Templars).

Also, the 'sniper scouts' in wave two are capable of filling an anti-tank role.

I'd also like to point out that the Harlequins, Admech and GSC weren't exactly massively well equipped as initial ranges, as were the Deathwatch, IIRC. Not saying Primaris don't have gaps to fill, but they're hardly the ONLY victims of reduced initial ranges. Again - it's about consistency. They're still Space Marines. They could just do with more units.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey40k wrote:
Old marines were as bad as primaries as a baseline, I never denied that.

But old marines had, as you acknowledged, specific units to chapters with more spice.

They rushed a whole replacement of old marines by primaries and hence they lack all the more special sculpts.

And in what way does that make Primaris Marines 'not Space Marines'? Unique units don't make Space Marines 'Space Marines'. Otherwise, that's just implying that Chapters that don't have unique sculpts simply don't exist or aren't worthy of being 'Space Marines'.

I'm not saying unique units/sculpts aren't nice, but they're not necessary.

I don’t really get what is your point, to be honest, besides npbeing argumentative.

My point is that a great many users are complaining about features of Primaris Marines, and seem to ignore that old Marines are equally guilty of the same complaints. There feels a like a lot of double standard and just hating on Primaris because they're new. By all means, subjective criticisms are fine by me, but there's a definite undercurrent in many (not all) comments that their criticism is based in objective fact and their version of Space Marines is "true" or "real".

I th8nk we mostly are in agreement.

I don't think we are.
Primaris Marines have faults, but old Marines are equally guilty of many. Any complaints about certain design features that apply to both should be explicitly named as "Space Marine problems" not "Primaris", for the sake of consistency.

No, primaris are most definitely not the same as old marines.

Several reasons for that:

1. Even in first edition, when marines were introduced, they added several chapter specific sculpts.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures_(Space_Marines)

Primaris marines have expanded by adding mostly generic non chapter sculpts. You say they are not "necessary"; honestly, I do not care whether you think it is necessary or not, it is just factually different.

2. While many new sculpts were added to SM, you could still use old sculpts. Primaris, instead, broke the mold.

You could use first edition deathwing terminators just fine and they performed throughout the editions. It is pretty obvious that primaris are meant to be a hard replacement to old marines.

Outside of chapter specific units without current replacement, I have yet to see a single tactical marine in a recent competitive list.

Besides that, because I do not want to get bogged down in that debate (what is competitive and what isn't), while you could use old / new sculpts and field the same IG unit throught 20 years of editions, quite clearly you cannot do the same with primaris. Either it is a newly bought primaris, or it isn't.

So defend primaris all you want; it is obvious from your posts that you like them in part because they fit better your idea of what a SM should be. But please, facts remain facts.

Grey40k wrote:
No, primaris are most definitely not the same as old marines.

Several reasons for that:

1. Even in first edition, when marines were introduced, they added several chapter specific sculpts.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Miniatures_(Space_Marines)

The link doesn't go anywhere?

Primaris marines have expanded by adding mostly generic non chapter sculpts. You say they are not "necessary"; honestly, I do not care whether you think it is necessary or not, it is just factually different.

But now they *DO* have unique sculpts. So, that "factual difference" is moot.

Give me a straight answer - is this a Space Marine army?

No Chapter specific units or bits in sight.

Space Marines are more than just the option for unique units and bitz. If that *were* true, it would imply that custom Chapters wouldn't be "Space Marines". I don't understand at all why you would care if Primaris do or don't have unique units or bits, because you don't need them in a Space Marine collection.

2. While many new sculpts were added to SM, you could still use old sculpts. Primaris, instead, broke the mold.

You could use first edition deathwing terminators just fine and they performed throughout the editions. It is pretty obvious that primaris are meant to be a hard replacement to old marines.

Not a fact though, is it? That's your beliefs and feelings, not a fact.

You're working on the assumption that, A, Primaris will replace all oldMarines, and B, that there won't be replacements for your Deathwing if that happens. Neither can be objectively proven, therefore are not factual assertions.

Outside of chapter specific units without current replacement, I have yet to see a single tactical marine in a recent competitive list.

Competitive 40k isn't the be-all-end-all of 40k though. I've played against and with plenty of oldMarines to tell me they're still in use.

Obviously, that's just my experience, but then, so is yours.

Besides that, because I do not want to get bogged down in that debate (what is competitive and what isn't), while you could use old / new sculpts and field the same IG unit throught 20 years of editions, quite clearly you cannot do the same with primaris. Either it is a newly bought primaris, or it isn't.

And? That's like saying "I can't play a Scout as a Tactical Marine, Scouts aren't real Space Marines".
Again, you are STILL working on the assumption that Primaris Marines will replace oldMarines and that oldMarines won't have any rules support afterwards. Can you prove that will be the case? No. Don't present it as a fact.

So defend primaris all you want; it is obvious from your posts that you like them in part because they fit better your idea of what a SM should be. But please, facts remain facts.

Yes, facts remain facts.

Facts like you don't need unique sculpts or kits for your Chapter.
Facts like we don't know what's going to happen with oldMarines and if they will or won't be given rules support in the future.

If you want to bring facts in, let's only use actual facts, yes?



Just to reiterate my point - Primaris Marines are still Space Marines. That is all.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Probably very few Chaos Marines have been around for 10,000 years, and those that have are probably not part of your standard CSM squads.

Maybe not 10000 years, but longer than most loyalists and definitely more than primaris. But not generally 10000 due to warp timey wimey stuff. But some legions are still primarily composed of veterans of the Heresy and Scouring.

Maybe so, but IMO that doesnt mean auto-vet. Survival over long periods of time doesn't necessarily mean they're operating at peak performance, it could also mean they havent been fighting constantly and have lost their edge. I'm all for the system in which CSM vary greatly from less-than-loyalist to greater-than-loyaliat depending on how you point them out. I'm just against the notion that ALL CSM default to better-than-loyalist.

But more to the point, I'm VERY against a paradigm in which the default loyalist is superior to the default CSM. Unfortunately that's the paradigm we're in now.

I don’t think 10000 years have passed for all CSM as I expect time flows differently in the warp. Just a guess but I prefer the idea that a strong core of CSM are from the HH days thus maintaining a burning desire to finish what Horus started and not accept defeat. It doesn’t feel like new traitors would be so committed to the cause of heresy and the black legion. Also the new fluff seems to suggest that the fallen were a full legion when cast into the eye of terror and I don’t think that many have been caught or killed, so they would all be from HH.

I don’t think veteran status really the issues I just think GW never made CSM different enough considering the influence of the chaos gods. They shouldn’t be better or worse but have different abilities with strategical strengths and weaknesses.

Grey40k wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

That the "new" marines have a different aesthetic is quite obvious to the objective observer, and also that they went with a different flavor. From an old decaying force full of flaws (marine chapters had their special imperfections) and holding on to old but better technology (e.g. plasma, floating vehicles), to a new force which is much cleaner (in looks and also no flaws), and a renaissance of the imperium that now is in the offensive (as opposed to desperately barely holding and decaying).

See this is what I do not agree with or even see where you are comning from.

Primaris look exactly like the decades of marines i have in my collection - most of them without ornate decoration. Only specific elite units, characters or upgrades were ornate.

The things that look much less like traditional marines are Centurions, Baby Carriers etc.

Oh I do not disagree entirely. It is more nuanced but it amounts to the same, in the end.

Where we agree: tactical marines, the regular guys, were not nice sculpts for my taste. Primaris are pretty much the same in that regard, adding some more poses and what not.
In part, primaris look more "standardized" and less "ornate" / "gothic" because they rolled them out without the chapter and unique unit sculpts. So all are interecessors, and not blood claws or sanguinary guard or what not.
I guess that in time this can be corrected, but it further reinforces the idea of simpler / generic that they have right now.

Besides that, it is quite clear to me that there is a change in the lore/fluff. That's the part about changing from losing to winning, from using old better relics to getting newer better technologies.

Combine that with the obvious cash grab (primaris can only use primaris stuff, primaris being made more competitive, etc.) and you get a whole bunch of angry people.
.

Well its pretty much ALL standard Marines (Tcs, Assault, Devs, Bikes) have been plain from the very beginning till now. The outlyers are the elite or Chapter spectifc marines which are and have always been the exception to the standard.

Deathwatch, Blood Claws, Sang Guard are elites and unusual hence the extra art, relics, scrolls whatever

There are already Chapter specific upgrades - which of course no other faction or race gets - ever.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Well its pretty much ALL standard Marines (Tcs, Assault, Devs, Bikes) have been plain from the very beginning till now. The outlyers are the elite or Chapter spectifc marines which are and have always been the exception to the standard.

Deathwatch, Blood Claws, Sang Guard are elites and unusual hence the extra art, relics, scrolls whatever

Exactly. The fact that the core of most Space Marine lists (at least, classic ones, that everyone raves about) were made up of the vaunted Tacticals and Assaults and Devastators should be enough to emphasise the point that Space Marines aren't defined only by their unique units.

I remember when there were no upgrade kits and sprues, and when the only difference between Imperial Fists and Ultramarines was a paint scheme.

Would a primaris fit in standard terminator armour and therefore be in the deathwing for example? Also if a primaris enters terminator armour would the be any better than a standard marine in terminator armour as it’s the suit that gives all the buffs

the_scotsman wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Autocannons are anti light infantry?

I swear to god there is some kind of vast illuminati conspiracy dedicated to taking my responses in this thread and responding to them as if I said the opposite thing to what is just got finished saying. It's uncanny.

The invictor warsuit can take either a twin auto cannon or a heavy flamer.

So again, are autocannons anti light infantry?

Personally I never shot them at kabalites or fire warriors before and if I am I probably already won. You make the claim the invictor is anti light infantry even though it can take a S7 2Dmg main gun, has a S14 3Dmg melee weapon, and yes a few S4 weapons that are mounted on basically every other vehicle, and has a better chance of getting into melee than all other dreadnoughts. Also if autocannons are anti light infantry than how do suppressors break the mold?

I was going to eat them so when the GW Thought Police kick in my door to destroy all the things they don’t currently sell, they’ll find it already destroyed from within.

They caught me once with 8th Ed Warhammer. I barely survived the Ducking Stool once, they won’t catch me flat footed ever again!

mrFickle wrote:
Would a primaris fit in standard terminator armour and therefore be in the deathwing for example? Also if a primaris enters terminator armour would the be any better than a standard marine in terminator armour as it’s the suit that gives all the buffs

Despite the single size of the models there is a range of heights and builds in the Astartes so Terminator armour absolutely could fit a Primaris but GW seems sadly diinsterested in making this prefering their own types of heavy armour.

Keep using them is the honest answer.

The long and the short of it is that Primaris were what got me back into 40k.

I liked marines years ago, when I was a kid and the third ed starter was a-calling. Over the years, marines drifted in design, getting more and more elaborate to the point that to me, they felt less marine and more taberknackle.

Primaris were a shift as opposed to a drift. Definitely. For me though, in the right direction. For me, gw did a great job. They managed to simultaneously reboot marines and refresh them whilst simultaneously maintaining the core aesthetics of what made marines marines. At least to me. I've yet to see a Primaris I don't like. Love the models. They are what I wish marines were when I first got into the game half a lifetime ago. Aggressors are what terminators ought to look like. Incessors are what assault marines should be. I love the vehicles. They float not with fancy anti gravity but by something akin to weaponised contempt by just punching the ground really hard. Bolters and big ass shoulder pads are what makes marines. Chainswords to a lesser extent, but ever since I have played, combat knives were just as much a thing as chain weapons. Shrug.

I like the clean look. To me, it's not new. There's enough of a throwback to the old rtb01 and second ed marines that to me they are not dissimilar, and to me, the mk of armour the Primaris armour most visually reflects is the mkiv, which is probably my favourite old mark of armour. Also nice and clean. Not all marines are gothic techno-barbarians with skulls on top of skulls, and loads of unnecessary flash. and for what it's worth, none of that stuff can't be incorportated anyway, if you are anyway handy or willing to convert. I play Raptors. I have absolutely no time for the gothic guff. And as a Raptors player, mine are a chapter that have been known to reinvent themselves over and over again, are a chapter known for a less than stellar adherence to the codex, and are a chapter that to me, would be one to wholeheartedly embrace the opportunity to change and bring onboard the new Primaris.

In terms of my old marines, what I have are actually, technically newer than my Primaris. I got lucky with some battle at calth and burning of prospero buys after I'd jumped back in and was able to put together a bunch of mkiii and mkiv marines to go alongside my Primaris. I will continue to field them, along with my Primaris vanguard.

The discussion is whether the aesthetic of primaris is different from that of "old marines".

The point I made is that yes, it is different. Not because the tacticals vs intercessors are very different; they are both plain and similar in the amount of detail.

The difference is coming from a host of chapter specific units that were released from the beginning (1st edition) with marines, and which have NOT been released with primaris.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Portal:Miniatures

This is a hard fact, you can see the list of all marine miniatures here and their edition.

Now, one could argue that more chapter unique sculpts would be added over time. I guess they will do that, over the years.

But as we stand Primaris are just an alternative line to existing marines (fast attack, troop, transport, dread, etc.), with no unique chapter specific options (for the most part).

This is what it is. How fast they will make the old marine range obsolete (like they killed tacticals), how many unique sculpts will come, will we get more "flaws" associated to primaris. All of those we cannot know.

 Mr Morden wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Would a primaris fit in standard terminator armour and therefore be in the deathwing for example? Also if a primaris enters terminator armour would the be any better than a standard marine in terminator armour as it’s the suit that gives all the buffs

Despite the single size of the models there is a range of heights and builds in the Astartes so Terminator armour absolutely could fit a Primaris but GW seems sadly diinsterested in making this prefering their own types of heavy armour.

I can't for the life of me remember the name but in the first Uriel ventris book one of the Ultramarines was so tall he couldn't fit in normal armour and a set of Terminator armour had to be customized just for him. It would probably be along the same lines as that

Grey40k wrote:
The discussion is whether the aesthetic of primaris is different from that of "old marines".

The point I made is that yes, it is different. Not because the tacticals vs intercessors are very different; they are both plain and similar in the amount of detail.

So, the actual core of a typical Space Marine army, and the most easily identifiable units from the Space Marine faction? Surely these are the most important units in terms of faction design?

I would care far more about nailing the design and aesthetic on the actual core units of the army first than worrying about the totally optional, non-core units that not everyone will even use depending on their choice in Chapter.

The difference is coming from a host of chapter specific units that were released from the beginning (1st edition) with marines, and which have NOT been released with primaris.

The Chapter specific units that not every Chapter has, and the ones that typically exist only to supplement the actual core of the Space Marine army?

In terms of priority of getting done, I'd put them pretty low, personally. If you think they're more important, by all means - but that doesn't make them *factually* important or key to the Space Marine aesthetic or design.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Portal:Miniatures

This is a hard fact, you can see the list of all marine miniatures here and their edition.

Now, one could argue that more chapter unique sculpts would be added over time. I guess they will do that, over the years.

But as we stand Primaris are just an alternative line to existing marines (fast attack, troop, transport, dread, etc.), with no unique chapter specific options (for the most part).

I missed the part where having unique Chapter options was essential in being a Space Marine.

I hasten to remind you that I very much remember when the only difference between Ultramarines and Imperial Fists was a paint scheme. Was I not playing Space Marines back then?

This is what it is. How fast they will make the old marine range obsolete (like they killed tacticals)

They haven't "killed" Tacticals any more so than when Scouts and Bikers "killed" Tacticals when Scouts and Bikers were the more popular Troops choices. You can still buy Tacticals, and many people still use them.
If Intercessors are meta-popular right now, they will simply be one more link in the long chain of Tacticals being passed over in favour of cheaper/more effective units in the competitive scene.

how many unique sculpts will come, will we get more "flaws" associated to primaris. All of those we cannot know.

Great. So, in the meantime, let's start using facts, and working on what we know for now.

We *know* that there are unique sculpts and ways to make your Primaris look more ornate/specific to a First Founding Chapter. We *know* that you can still use old sculpts if you still want to. We *know* that Primaris Death Company and such similar units exist, and have been integrated into things like the Ravenwing/Deathwing. We also *know* that you don't need unique sculpts to have a Space Marine army.

Grey40k wrote:
The discussion is whether the aesthetic of primaris is different from that of "old marines".

The point I made is that yes, it is different. Not because the tacticals vs intercessors are very different; they are both plain and similar in the amount of detail.

The difference is coming from a host of chapter specific units that were released from the beginning (1st edition) with marines, and which have NOT been released with primaris.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Portal:Miniatures

This is a hard fact, you can see the list of all marine miniatures here and their edition.

Now, one could argue that more chapter unique sculpts would be added over time. I guess they will do that, over the years.

But as we stand Primaris are just an alternative line to existing marines (fast attack, troop, transport, dread, etc.), with no unique chapter specific options (for the most part).

This is what it is. How fast they will make the old marine range obsolete (like they killed tacticals), how many unique sculpts will come, will we get more "flaws" associated to primaris. All of those we cannot know.

There are already Chapter specific upgrades which is more than any other subfaction than Marines gets which is another hard fact.

Yeah there are no WULFWULF Wulfen or similar but they are ultra specific elite units not the main army and nothing to do with basic marines

 fraser1191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Autocannons are anti light infantry?

I swear to god there is some kind of vast illuminati conspiracy dedicated to taking my responses in this thread and responding to them as if I said the opposite thing to what is just got finished saying. It's uncanny.

The invictor warsuit can take either a twin auto cannon or a heavy flamer.

So again, are autocannons anti light infantry?

Personally I never shot them at kabalites or fire warriors before and if I am I probably already won. You make the claim the invictor is anti light infantry even though it can take a S7 2Dmg main gun, has a S14 3Dmg melee weapon, and yes a few S4 weapons that are mounted on basically every other vehicle, and has a better chance of getting into melee than all other dreadnoughts. Also if autocannons are anti light infantry than how do suppressors break the mold?

Fair enough - in my mind, the other main weapon it could take was a heavy bolter, rather than an autocannon. Clearly, another 1/2 of 1 kit that includes an antitank gun defeats the general premise of the crazy fraction of the overall primaris range armed with S4-S5 high ROF weaponry and nothing else. Surely I must have imagined all those new players who started a primaris army and got to 1500 points or so with 10 hellblasters and a single redemptor fist that never makes it to combat as the sum total of all their dedicated antitank weaponry, with the rest of their army being intercessors, buff bubbles for the intercessors, aggressors with boltguns, inceptors with boltguns, reivers with boltguns, inceptors with boltguns, etc.

Weirdly, in other limited factions, which I play a ton of, they're purposefully designed to have flexible loadouts to allow them to perform multiple roles. I play Genestealer Cults. Guess what my basic dudes can take?

flamers
webbers
stubbers
shotguns or autoguns
sergeant combat weapons and combat buffing accessories
mini-lascannons
grenade launchers
seismic cannons

Oh man, I'm playing Harlequins, I only have one troop choice how should I attack tanks? Oh, I'll just put some melta pistols on them, the upgrade that every one of them can optionally take. I can make them expensive and hunt elites, give them pistols and hunt tanks, or keep them cheap as an anti-chaff unit.

When they released Skitarii with a super-tight, limited model range, what did they give them in the first wave?

1) An infantry unit with a ton of weapon options that lets them do everything bar melee
2) A dedicated melee light infantry unit (that can also infiltrate)
3) An anti-light tank melee unit that can be built as an anti-light tank ranged unit
4) A medium tank that can be an anti-air weapon, an anti-tank specialist, or an anti-elite unit

Small, tight model range, but thanks to multikits and squad upgrades, all the roles were covered fairly well.

Craftworld Eldar with highly specalised elite units are very similar and they have been one of my favourite lore and imagery since they came out in White Dwarf.

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Would a primaris fit in standard terminator armour and therefore be in the deathwing for example? Also if a primaris enters terminator armour would the be any better than a standard marine in terminator armour as it’s the suit that gives all the buffs

Despite the single size of the models there is a range of heights and builds in the Astartes so Terminator armour absolutely could fit a Primaris but GW seems sadly diinsterested in making this prefering their own types of heavy armour.

I can't for the life of me remember the name but in the first Uriel ventris book one of the Ultramarines was so tall he couldn't fit in normal armour and a set of Terminator armour had to be customized just for him. It would probably be along the same lines as that

Tyberos from the Carcharadons is another good example. Dudes huge, don't see why terminator armour couldn't be modified similarly for primaris. The Black Dragons also have to modify their armour for some of the Dragon Claws, who get primaris sized (or bigger) sometimes.

This whole thread is getting odd. If you like primaris, play them. If you don't, don't. I don't like daemon engines and don't play them in my Night Lords. I've never had to have a multi page argument about it with other csm players.

the_scotsman wrote:
Weirdly, in other limited factions, which I play a ton of, they're purposefully designed to have flexible loadouts to allow them to perform multiple roles. I play Genestealer Cults. Guess what my basic dudes can take?

flamers
webbers
stubbers
shotguns or autoguns
sergeant combat weapons and combat buffing accessories
mini-lascannons
grenade launchers
seismic cannons

Most of those are just more anti-infantry (flamers, stubbers/autoguns/shotguns, webbers) with even less variation than the Primaris bolt rifles (at least auto bolt rifles can go for chaff clearing and stalkers can go for heavy-infantry threat, which you seemed to ignore), both GSC and Primaris Sergeants can go for combat buffing weapons and abilities (so, bit inconsistent there with your comparison), grenade launchers are available to Intercessors too, the Seismic Cannon is just a better grenade launcher, dealing with the same rough range of targets but with more predictability - the only truly role-breaking thing the Neophytes get is the mining laser - and by that same degree, Intercessors can just count their Sergeant's thunder hammer as their "single" role-breaking weapon, if that's all it takes.

Oh man, I'm playing Harlequins, I only have one troop choice how should I attack tanks? Oh, I'll just put some melta pistols on them, the upgrade that every one of them can optionally take. I can make them expensive and hunt elites, give them pistols and hunt tanks, or keep them cheap as an anti-chaff unit.

Primaris Intercessor Sergeants with thunder hammers are capable of killing tanks at close range too. I thought you were talking about needing proper 24"+ ranged options, not getting into melee range.

When they released Skitarii with a super-tight, limited model range, what did they give them in the first wave?

1) An infantry unit with a ton of weapon options that lets them do everything bar melee

Whereas Intercessors have a ton of weaponry that let them engage chaff, standard, and MEQ enemies, as well as threaten heavy vehicles in melee.

2) A dedicated melee light infantry unit (that can also infiltrate)

With Primaris, many units are decent at melee simply due to weight of attacks, and infiltration is covered by Reivers deep striking initially, then followed up by the entire Phobos range. But, more power weapons would be nice.

3) An anti-light tank melee unit that can be built as an anti-light tank ranged unit

Anti-light tank is performed by Hellblasters, and plasma Inceptors, and later by Suppressors.

4) A medium tank that can be an anti-air weapon, an anti-tank specialist, or an anti-elite unit

So, a Repulsor? Anti-air by sheer number of shots, anti-tank with the las-talon, anti-elite by sheer shooting and las-talon.

Small, tight model range, but thanks to multikits and squad upgrades, all the roles were covered fairly well.

I'm not seeing my difference then with the Primaris. Between Repulsors, Intercessors, Hellblasters, Inceptors and Aggressors, I'd say the army was pretty well rounded. Other units came later to round out niche gaps. The only real gap I think Primaris have is a dedicated fast melee unit with power weaponry. If I'd been in charge of Primaris design, I would have given Reivers power weapons - mauls, axes and swords - and I think we'd have had a very nice base there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
This whole thread is getting odd. If you like primaris, play them. If you don't, don't. I don't like daemon engines and don't play them in my Night Lords. I've never had to have a multi page argument about it with other csm players.

It's because as well as not playing them, some (not all) people like to announce how Primaris aren't "real" Space Marines, for inconsistent reasons that always seem to incriminate other Space Marines.

I fully agree with you that, if you don't like Primaris, just don't play them. No-one's forcing you to. If you don't like their design, no-one's saying you have to. Just don't do the whole "they're not REAL Marines" thing.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Craftworld Eldar with highly specalised elite units are very similar and they have been one of my favourite lore and imagery since they came out in White Dwarf.

Yeah, it's too bad they now feel like disposable chaff for the most part. Good ol' super-agile howling banshees with their..fewer attacks than a basic space marine bashing with a rifle butt :^)

Howling Banshees, Dire Avengers, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Swooping Hawks have been shoved down into El Cheapo Chaff squad territory. If you want to fight space marines 1-on-1 in close combat now, even if it's not a close combat marine unit, it better be a character, mounted on a jetbike, or a wraith or grotesque type thing.

But hey, maybe next CA they'll drop aspect warriors down to sub-10pts! You can have a huge tyranids-esque horde of dire avengers! Woooo!

Yes it can be easy to gloss over most Primaris as having mostly S4-5 weapons because they do. I play Primaris quite a bit and that's by far my biggest complaint (well second biggest, but most relevant). I honestly can't speak for new Primaris players, I kinda shut myself off to figure them out for myself. But yes I quickly used devastators to off set their weakness, or twin autocannon dreads since hellblasters and plasma inceptors wasn't/isn't enough. I'd call eliminators more of a stop gap till there's an actual long range AT option

As for Primaris having limited options, why don't Eldar get the same flakk? DA have no options at all barring the exarch, same for Striking scorpions, etc, etc. Not trying to have a gotcha moment or anything just a simple question since I've seen people make the comparison before.

Skitarii are my second love, their kits are amazing their army designs are on point and they managed to make an amazing army with only 4 kits not including ad mech technically. I'll never not love ruststalkers

I think everything is really jumbled with Primaris currently, I think the Vanguard weren't planned and rushed. My reasoning for this is there was a pod cast with Goodwin saying that reavers were massively popular in comparison to other kits. So I'd say the second wave was to compliment the line at the time but then they rushed out a new kit with Phobos Armour to capitalize. Flimsy at best but it's still my theory. Incursors should have had shotguns since they're "close support" not weak melee rules for a non melee unit, the LT's are poorly designed either from incompetence or from being rushed.

Of course that chapter specific sculpts matter in a discussion about whether they are different than old marines or not! That is precisely, from a looks perspective, the main difference.

Grey40k wrote:
Of course that chapter specific sculpts matter in a discussion about whether they are different than old marines or not! That is precisely, from a looks perspective, the main difference.

Chapter specific sculpts make up a tiny proportion of Space Marine sculpts, and are completely optional. Surely any discussion of Space Marine aesthetics should be dominated by how much a Space Marine looks like the majority of other Space Marine sculpts, not by their similarity with a handful of rare and optional units?

As you seem to claim, if the main difference between Primaris and oldMarines is that Primaris don't have any Chapter specific sculpts, that's an incredibly minor complaint. Considering that MOST Chapters don't have any kind of Chapter specific sculpt, I think it's very fair to say that Primaris are more than welcome in the Space Marine lineup, if that's the main difference between them.

@the_scotsman: I've speculated openly that the Primaris units being so heavily anti-infantry/anti-light-vehicle was a deliberate move on GW's part.

Early in 8th my local group was very sure that Primaris were a bad investment and Classic Marines were the way to go, in large part because the Primaris range was so lacking in anti-tank and fast attack options. What I found over the first several months was that Classic Marines couldn't effectively handle hordes and medium vehicles with invuln saves, and that 8th favored exactly those units.

Cue Primaris.

It would be easy enough to see that as a cynical cash-grab, forcing existing players to buy into the new hotness to cover a gap in their old collections created by the changes in 8th and also forcing new players to buy kits out of the old range to cover the gaps in the Primaris line in the meantime.

It's also possible (if a bit harder) to see it as GW trying to thread the needle of rebooting their most popular model range without alienating a significant chunk of their customer base in the process.

There's a third possibility that few people talk about though, that GW deliberately created the Primaris line to compliment the classic line and has no intention of dropping either. It's unlikely, but not impossible, and it would explain why the two lines cover each other's weaknesses the way they do.

Grey40k wrote:
Of course that chapter specific sculpts matter in a discussion about whether they are different than old marines or not! That is precisely, from a looks perspective, the main difference.

No its irrelevant because they are the unusual ones - special models made for special units - they used to be represented with conversions and eventually got models but for MANY years there was nothiing. There are already upgrade packs for Primaris if you want to make up these unsual / elite units. However the majority of the range remains pretty much plain - same as Primaris.

Otherwise all those basic bikers, Tacs, Devs and Assault Marines are somewhoe not real Marines.

Where do you stand on Centurions and similar retconed BS

You can't have it both ways

GW had to make something like Primaris as there is only so many slightly different marine units that they could do. God knows they did enough of that before they excreeted Centurions.

Grey40k wrote:
Of course that chapter specific sculpts matter in a discussion about whether they are different than old marines or not! That is precisely, from a looks perspective, the main difference.

I collect Raptors. I don't have any olstartes (or newstartes) chapter specific sculpts. Are they not real marines?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Would a primaris fit in standard terminator armour and therefore be in the deathwing for example? Also if a primaris enters terminator armour would the be any better than a standard marine in terminator armour as it’s the suit that gives all the buffs

Despite the single size of the models there is a range of heights and builds in the Astartes so Terminator armour absolutely could fit a Primaris but GW seems sadly diinsterested in making this prefering their own types of heavy armour.

I can't for the life of me remember the name but in the first Uriel ventris book one of the Ultramarines was so tall he couldn't fit in normal armour and a set of Terminator armour had to be customized just for him. It would probably be along the same lines as that

Tyberos from the Carcharadons is another good example. Dudes huge, don't see why terminator armour couldn't be modified similarly for primaris. The Black Dragons also have to modify their armour for some of the Dragon Claws, who get primaris sized (or bigger) sometimes.

This whole thread is getting odd. If you like primaris, play them. If you don't, don't. I don't like daemon engines and don't play them in my Night Lords. I've never had to have a multi page argument about it with other csm players.

I just find it interesting because terminators aren’t considered primaris marines but could be primaris marines if you wanted them to be.

mrFickle wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

mrFickle wrote:
Would a primaris fit in standard terminator armour and therefore be in the deathwing for example? Also if a primaris enters terminator armour would the be any better than a standard marine in terminator armour as it’s the suit that gives all the buffs

Despite the single size of the models there is a range of heights and builds in the Astartes so Terminator armour absolutely could fit a Primaris but GW seems sadly diinsterested in making this prefering their own types of heavy armour.

I can't for the life of me remember the name but in the first Uriel ventris book one of the Ultramarines was so tall he couldn't fit in normal armour and a set of Terminator armour had to be customized just for him. It would probably be along the same lines as that

Tyberos from the Carcharadons is another good example. Dudes huge, don't see why terminator armour couldn't be modified similarly for primaris. The Black Dragons also have to modify their armour for some of the Dragon Claws, who get primaris sized (or bigger) sometimes.

This whole thread is getting odd. If you like primaris, play them. If you don't, don't. I don't like daemon engines and don't play them in my Night Lords. I've never had to have a multi page argument about it with other csm players.

I just find it interesting because terminators aren’t considered primaris marines but could be primaris marines if you wanted them to be.

We could see primaris (read true scale) terminators in the future. I doubt gw would get rid of something as iconic as terminators.

Terminator is probably not IP.

Interminablator is however free for GW to copyright... my money is on that. Or maybe Interminable armor...

terminator is a nickname anyway, their offical name is Indomatus pattern Tactical dreadnought armor.

We already have Cataphracti terminators. it'd be easy eneugh to give us Primaris Bellgerator Terminators or something.