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the_scotsman wrote:
So, I'm out of date on the thread here, are we talking about how someone should hold an objective with 300 points of grots for some reason instead of holding it with 300 points of vastly, VASTLY more durable Boyz+KFF Mek that can actually get anything done in the game?

Even if the stat shift for gretchin to Boyz was JUST T2-T4 it'd be worth 3pts.

But it's not, it's S2-S4, T2-T4, Sv7+-Sv6+, A1-A3/4, S3 gun-S4 gun, WS5+-WS3+, Ld4-Ld FREAKING THIRTY, no clan trait - clan trait, +ere we go, +Every ork aura, +can use stratagems.

it's absolutely fething laughable for 3 points.

You don't even get a bigger model footprint for the grots! EVEN if your point is "Oh but they block space" BOYZ ARE BETTER AT THAT JOB. Because yes, you get 3/8 more models, but they're on 25mms instead of 32mms!



I was talking about why the points changes to 3ppm Gretchin happened, and why other armies are fielding more bodies and fewer toys even before that price change. The "hit" to hordes. They're arguing something about why 480 grots + 600 or so more points of Orks, of which only 450 grots on average can be shot in 5 turns, and can't hold objectives for 2+ turns.

It started with someone pointing to a hypothetical SM list of 60 Tactical, and 30 Assault Marines - potentially post update? - vs the horde lists also post update? making them out of style/ineffective to which I made two and a half counter points:

Hordes could field more wounds than Space Marines can/could deal damage to, just in the troops slot. Someone else pointed out a horde army was about board control, I took it to an extreme roughly on par with a 90 body marine army.

SM Armies adapted to hordes with more bodies fewer toys.

The half point I haven't expanded on much - Horde armies have to adapt now too. The definition of horde armies is not fixed. It will ebb and flow from edition to edition.

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... and the entire argument is utterly stupid because orks can't bring 480 gretchin in the first place.

I think the highest we have ever seen was something around 250 and apparently marines can clear out those just fine in three turns of shooting.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/08 14:16:12


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Breton wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
So, I'm out of date on the thread here, are we talking about how someone should hold an objective with 300 points of grots for some reason instead of holding it with 300 points of vastly, VASTLY more durable Boyz+KFF Mek that can actually get anything done in the game?

Even if the stat shift for gretchin to Boyz was JUST T2-T4 it'd be worth 3pts.

But it's not, it's S2-S4, T2-T4, Sv7+-Sv6+, A1-A3/4, S3 gun-S4 gun, WS5+-WS3+, Ld4-Ld FREAKING THIRTY, no clan trait - clan trait, +ere we go, +Every ork aura, +can use stratagems.

it's absolutely fething laughable for 3 points.

You don't even get a bigger model footprint for the grots! EVEN if your point is "Oh but they block space" BOYZ ARE BETTER AT THAT JOB. Because yes, you get 3/8 more models, but they're on 25mms instead of 32mms!



I was talking about why the points changes to 3ppm Gretchin happened, and why other armies are fielding more bodies and fewer toys even before that price change. The "hit" to hordes. They're arguing something about why 480 grots + 600 or so more points of Orks, of which only 450 grots on average can be shot in 5 turns, and can't hold objectives for 2+ turns.

It started with someone pointing to a hypothetical SM list of 60 Tactical, and 30 Assault Marines - potentially post update? - vs the horde lists also post update? making them out of style/ineffective to which I made two and a half counter points:

Hordes could field more wounds than Space Marines can/could deal damage to, just in the troops slot. Someone else pointed out a horde army was about board control, I took it to an extreme roughly on par with a 90 body marine army.

SM Armies adapted to hordes with more bodies fewer toys.

The half point I haven't expanded on much - Horde armies have to adapt now too. The definition of horde armies is not fixed. It will ebb and flow from edition to edition.


So...the strategy you're advocating here is...for 3000pt games? can you demonstrate any way at all that your 3000 points of gretchins that you can't kill in 5 turns is in any way superior or more useful than 3000 points of, say, Guardsmen+Commanders (who ABSOLUTELY could demolish 3000 points of gretchin in 5 turns, seeing as a FRFSRF guard squad kills 12 gretchin per turn) or 3000 points of Ork Boyz?

Your entire point here appears to be "A skew list can be effective, because of the reasons skew lists are effective" which....yep. Sure.

Usually, though, you don't make your skew lists out of units that are bad. 2000 points of Eldar Wraithlords have some advantages, the whole list is T8 3+, so they make bolters pretty pointless, but they don't do a particularly great job killing anything and they're pretty easy to destroy with antitank weaponry because at the end of the day, WL's are just not a great unit all-round, so unsurprisingly you gain fewer advantages taking 2000 points of them than you do taking 2000 points of some better heavy unit like Knights.

So far, we have seen a couple of horde armies winning in 9th. Ghazghkull+120ish boyz, tons of plaguebearers and nurglings, arguably I guess VH sisters as well you could call a horde list?

But very few, comparatively to the massive number of elite infantry based armies.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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Breton wrote:


Already did the math, a SM army that averages 10 points per shot, 2000 points is 200 shots, hitting 67%(134), wounding 67%,(89.78) 0% saves - you get 90(89.78) grot casualties per turn. From the entire army. 16x30 grots is 480 grots. 5x90 casaulties is 450. An entire unit of grots isn't even being shot at, assuming you eradicate one unit before shooting the next. I mean we all know not the whole army will be in range of not the whole army every turn, we're doing concept math. What's going to happen is a couple damaged units would be around. Well that and the 560 points of whatever else they pair with the Grots. Maybe more than a couple if folks continue to demand their Aggressors in a concept list of 60 Tacs and 30 Assaults, because that means they're also taking the eradicators/heavys/whatever who pay a lot more than 10 points a shot.


What are Tactical Marines right now? 18ppm right? They also get 2 shots at 30 if they don't move. That would be 1 shot per 9pts. When you start adding in other flavors like the aforementioned aggressors, if they don't move they can push out 12+2D6 shots for 40ppm which against Hordes is better than 1 shot per 2pts, Intercessors are 1 shot per 10 but can be 6.7ish if you give them assault bolt guns. Regardless, I think 10 is way to much, but lets roll with it to prove the point.

2k marines puts out 200 shots, assuming we are completely ignoring required HQs that allow re-rolls that is 134 hits, however your math is wrong here, it is not 89.78 grot casualties, because those Marines are not wounding on 3s, they are in fact wounding on 2s, so that is 111 wounds a turn. Which based on grotz current price is 555pts gone or over 1/4th the army if they only took grots. If we went by the old (still too expensive) 3ppm that is 333pts gone or 1/6th of the giant horde, But of course this also ignores other obvious factors like Morale. If split between the many mobs you could easily force all 16 of those Grot mobs into morale checks. Remember, LD4, so kill 4 and they have a 83% chance to fail morale and lose guaranteed 1 model and likely another 16% of whatever is left. Sticking with the math though, if you kill just 333pts of Grotz a turn you have effectively destroyed the front ranks and kept them off the forward objectives, by turn 2 you should be close enough to engage in CC with the grotz and that is when those Space Marines start earning back those points even more quickly. Grots hit on 5s and wound on 6s in CC where as Marines hit on 3s and wound on 2. On the charge those 1 shot per 10pt intercessors are getting 3 attacks, sergeant is 5, so a 5 man intercessor squad has 17 attacks for about 12 hits and 10 wounds for 8-9 dead grotz assuming you somehow managed to get 30 grotz into CC at FULL strength they get 30 attacks for 15 hits (+1 to hit for 20+ models) and a grand total of...2.5 wounds which results in .83 wounds so not even 1 dead model. Again, even assuming the lower average of 8 dead grotz and assuming the old price of 3ppm, those 5 intercessors are now killing 24pts of models in CC a turn while receiving less than 1 wound a turn by a mob that is almost theoretically unable to use all its attacks.

So long as you are piling in and repositioning your models after each CC phase you will easily push those grotz off the objective turn 2, at most turn 3 and own them for the rest of the game with the grotz unable to get close enough to even contest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 14:42:33


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the_scotsman wrote:


So...the strategy you're advocating here is...for 3000pt games? can you demonstrate any way at all that your 3000 points of gretchins that you can't kill in 5 turns is in any way superior or more useful than 3000 points of, say, Guardsmen+Commanders (who ABSOLUTELY could demolish 3000 points of gretchin in 5 turns, seeing as a FRFSRF guard squad kills 12 gretchin per turn) or 3000 points of Ork Boyz?
I'm not advocating for it so much as using as an example of why. 2,000 480 = 1440 Other than you only get half or so the Boyz and the "hit" people discuss primarily focused on grots going from X to almost 2X and not being worth 2X?

Your entire point here appears to be "A skew list can be effective, because of the reasons skew lists are effective" which....yep. Sure.
No, My point is if your opponent adapts you have to as well, and balance suggests 2000 points should be able to deal with 2,000 points except 2000 points of marines can't shoot up 2000 points of grots on top of which 480 ObSec Grots beats 60 ObSec Tactical Marines, heck 1440 points of 480 ObSec Grots beats the equal points 120 Tactical Marines when it comes time to Count ObSec Models on the objective. I skewed even further to prove the point but everyone is drowning in the grots. When you score the game in models, but buy the models in points, a horde list has a place because they have more models to score with. Being able to take more models than the other guy can shoot if he shoots every time all the time just makes it easier to see. I thought. Hordes aren't going anywhere as long as you can buy three or more scoring models for the price of 1 - and we score in models not points. As long as 6 grots mooning 5 intercessors inbetween turns control the objective.... I don't know of another way to put this concept.


Usually, though, you don't make your skew lists out of units that are bad. 2000 points of Eldar Wraithlords have some advantages, the whole list is T8 3+, so they make bolters pretty pointless, but they don't do a particularly great job killing anything and they're pretty easy to destroy with antitank weaponry because at the end of the day, WL's are just not a great unit all-round, so unsurprisingly you gain fewer advantages taking 2000 points of them than you do taking 2000 points of some better heavy unit like Knights.

Usually the skew lists want or at least care about their damage dealt. If someone wants to do it, they're welcome to but it wasn't relevant to my point. 480 grots are going to kill some marines. Every marine they kill is going to result in more than the what 30? 31? that should mathematically be alive ending up alive? the other 500-600 points is going to kill some marines. Every marine they kill, more grots. Every shot they take away from the grots.. more grots. I feel like a WoW raid leader. More Grots. More Grots. Many Whelps.


So far, we have seen a couple of horde armies winning in 9th. Ghazghkull+120ish boyz, tons of plaguebearers and nurglings, arguably I guess VH sisters as well you could call a horde list?

But very few, comparatively to the massive number of elite infantry based armies.
The horde lists will adapt. Possibly even before the new Codex. Definitely (again) after. Someone's going to take the Ghaz list and tweak it. Someone else will tweak that. Yet another - maybe even the first guy will have an epiphany over some unused or used differently unit and then everyone will copy that for a few months.

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....is the fundamental misunderstanding here that you don't know grots are 5ppm?

5x480 = 2400 pts.

Also, in order for it to matter that those grots might be difficult to remove, they have to actually establish board control vs the marines. and they have nooooooooooooo way of doing that.

Practically every marine list that exists now starts on the objectives. They start in control of the midboard with invictors, scouts, infiltrators, and inceptors. You have to get them off.

Grots physically cannot do that. it takes an entire 2000 point grot army to remove a 5-man infiltrator squad in cover, granting that you can possibly get all 400 of them within 12" range of just that one squad.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 15:19:31


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
....is the fundamental misunderstanding here that you don't know grots are 5ppm?

5x480 = 2400 pts.


I think the argument is for why grots shouldn't be 3 points... because people would take 480 grots and then auto-win.

I mean they wouldn't, because... playing the game, but that's the argument.
   
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Tyel wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
....is the fundamental misunderstanding here that you don't know grots are 5ppm?

5x480 = 2400 pts.


I think the argument is for why grots shouldn't be 3 points... because people would take 480 grots and then auto-win.

I mean they wouldn't, because... playing the game, but that's the argument.


I mean, maybe grots would be a slight problem at 3ppm in 9th...I kind of doubt it, having played a couple of test games with my grot army prior to the point leak, where their extremely slow speed and extremely low killing power for the points meant they basically couldn't get on objectives to control them.

...but they're not that. Your opponent doesn't need to table you to win the game, they just need to keep you off the objectives.

The entire reason that plaguebearers, ork boyz, guardsmen and nurglings are still decent units in an edition that's hostile to light infantry in general is that they're

1 - durable for the cost
and
2 - either have the option of just appearing where they want to be, OR they want to be in a big melee scrum, OR they have easy mobility options to actually get them on top of objectives so you have to remove them from there.

Gretchin aren't any of those things, at 3ppm or 5ppm. at 3ppm you can argue they're decently durable, compared pound for pound with nurglings, boyz, etc, but they can't actually get to objectives and if you charge at them with a squad of nearly anything, the gretchins will lose enough models that they're no longer holding the point against you.

Any unit that doesn't fulfil criteria 1 and some criteria of 2 currently in the game is not useful in 9th. Fire Warriors, GSC neophytes and Skitarii, fine durability, do NOT want to be in melee so holding objectives midboard with them sucks. Guardians, Cultists, wyches, kabal warriors, Tzaangors, non-nurgle lesser daemons? Very efficient to scoop them off the board with boltguns thanks to the new point costs.

i'm not of the opinion that 9th ed is FUNDAMENTALLY broken for hordes, I dont' think systemically it is, I just think GW massively overswung the pendulum with a ton of units and point costs are just going to get sillier when marines double their wounds. Like seriously? 18ppm tactical marine vs 10ppm guardian? That's just asinine.

The point costs were just done in a way that was gakky. Maybe gretchin should be 3ppm. Maybe they should be 4ppm. Theyre definitely at least 1ppm (20%) overcosted currently, which is enough to put pretty much any unit in the dumpster in 40k.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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the_scotsman wrote:
....is the fundamental misunderstanding here that you don't know grots are 5ppm?

5x480 = 2400 pts.
How much were they before the "hit"? That is the subject of this thread.


Also, in order for it to matter that those grots might be difficult to remove, they have to actually establish board control vs the marines. and they have nooooooooooooo way of doing that.

Practically every marine list that exists now starts on the objectives. They start in control of the midboard with invictors, scouts, infiltrators, and inceptors. You have to get them off.
No you don't. You have to outnumber them. You're on the objective 12" away on Turn 1? So I can walk 5, shoot you somewhere less than 120 times, charge on average ~7, pile in, and outnumber you to also be on the objective turn 1 with more ObSec than you have?

Grots physically cannot do that. it takes an entire 2000 point grot army to remove a 5-man infiltrator squad in cover, granting that you can possibly get all 400 of them within 12" range of just that one squad.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyel wrote:


I mean they wouldn't, because... playing the game, but that's the argument.


I happily admit I'd rather watch grass grow than play this game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 15:58:57


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Breton wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
....is the fundamental misunderstanding here that you don't know grots are 5ppm?

5x480 = 2400 pts.
How much were they before the "hit"? That is the subject of this thread.

How about discussing whether a 1 pt increase would have been enough instead then? Do you think bringing 90+ Gretchin would be the meta way to play Orks if they had "only" gone up 33% in cost?
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Breton wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
....is the fundamental misunderstanding here that you don't know grots are 5ppm?

5x480 = 2400 pts.
How much were they before the "hit"? That is the subject of this thread.

How about discussing whether a 1 pt increase would have been enough instead then? Do you think bringing 90+ Gretchin would be the meta way to play Orks if they had "only" gone up 33% in cost?

I'd say they should go to 5 and get a boost. I'd say the best thing they could have done is based scoring/controlling on something other than model count, like points/PL value, either of the unit, or of the models in range - play testing would have to hammer that one out I'm not sure how that would fall with giant based Knights and such..

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Breton wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Breton wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
....is the fundamental misunderstanding here that you don't know grots are 5ppm?

5x480 = 2400 pts.
How much were they before the "hit"? That is the subject of this thread.

How about discussing whether a 1 pt increase would have been enough instead then? Do you think bringing 90+ Gretchin would be the meta way to play Orks if they had "only" gone up 33% in cost?

I'd say they should go to 5 and get a boost. I'd say the best thing they could have done is based scoring/controlling on something other than model count, like points/PL value, either of the unit, or of the models in range - play testing would have to hammer that one out I'm not sure how that would fall with giant based Knights and such..

Assuming no rules changes, as has been the case thus far, do you think 3, 4 or 5 pts is more fair? Let's agree that it is possible that Codex Orks for 9th edition will make changes that makes them worth 5, 6 or even 7 pts. But are they worth 5 pts now?
   
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Breton wrote:



I happily admit I'd rather watch grass grow than play this game.


So no offense meant here my dude, but why make claims in the first place then?

Because if you actually played the game you might realize just how easy it is for you to use even a 5-man obsec unit to prevent a more numerous unit from gaining access to an objective if the more numerous unit can't remove models from your unit.

You either

1) put your units 3" away towards your board edge, preventing the enemy from using the extra movement via a charge move to get in

or

2) put your units 3" away towards your opponent's board edge, preventing them from getting within 3" by blocking them.

The leading edge of an Invictor Warsuit's base can be nearly 6" away from an objective, and it's fairly easy to keep even a 30 model unit from being able to get anything within 3" if they don't have a super easy charge roll (they won't turn 1) or if they can't destroy you and get your model out of the way. new coherency makes it MUCH MUCH harder to get anywhere via pile in/consolidate moves. Obsec doesn't even factor into it.

If you won't actually play the game in question and evidently hold it in total disdain, why do you think you're galaxy-brained enough to be smarter than everyone who does play the game and says that horde armies were hit way too hard with the new edition?

Marines, Custodes, and Harlequins currently make up about 60% of the competitive pool despite being 3/24 factions for a reason, and it ain't because people haven't come up with some thing that you have because you're a certified sooper genius.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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 vict0988 wrote:
Breton wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
Breton wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
....is the fundamental misunderstanding here that you don't know grots are 5ppm?

5x480 = 2400 pts.
How much were they before the "hit"? That is the subject of this thread.

How about discussing whether a 1 pt increase would have been enough instead then? Do you think bringing 90+ Gretchin would be the meta way to play Orks if they had "only" gone up 33% in cost?

I'd say they should go to 5 and get a boost. I'd say the best thing they could have done is based scoring/controlling on something other than model count, like points/PL value, either of the unit, or of the models in range - play testing would have to hammer that one out I'm not sure how that would fall with giant based Knights and such..

Assuming no rules changes, as has been the case thus far, do you think 3, 4 or 5 pts is more fair? Let's agree that it is possible that Codex Orks for 9th edition will make changes that makes them worth 5, 6 or even 7 pts. But are they worth 5 pts now?

I think all of the points changes are an early release of the codex. I don't think much of anything that went up in price is worth the points it went up. I think they should get a boost to get to be worth 5. I think they gave us these new points so we make a bunch of new lists and gripe about paying more for less, then when the new codexes drop our lists won't change much, but our stuff will get better fooling us into thinking we got something for nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Longer answer:

I don't think this is going to happen, but I were GW, and kind of a jerk, I'd make the Grots 5ppm, I'd change the Grot blasters from a 12" pistol to a 18-30" Assault 1 depending on where I'm landing with 44" table edges, then I'd split the boys into Shoota Boys and Choppa Boys.

I'd do this for a couple reasons, some because it's good for balance, fluff etc, and some because I'm GW and I want to sell more kits.

The sneaky cowardly gits who like to plink from the back rows before they run away should have something more fitting for that role. Fluffy and good for Orks.

Splitting the boys will sell kits to people who had mixed mobs or such Hey, I'm GW remember?

It also gives you a third Troops choice something Orks are pretty thin on while allowing more variety in rules and strats for two different brands of boys.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/08 17:01:57


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The only thing that could make them worth of 5 points would be having Grot Shields as a free ability in their datasheet. Maybe not on 2+ like the stratagem but at 4+. I would never consider them otherwise.

In 3rd edition Shoota and Slugga boyz were actually two different kind of troops (orks had 6 troops in that codex!) with their own datasheet and even a different point cost. I wouldn't mind that considering that I never mix them up, but honestly I don't see how this would make any difference.

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 Blackie wrote:
The only thing that could make them worth of 5 points would be having Grot Shields as a free ability in their datasheet. Maybe not on 2+ like the stratagem but at 4+. I would never consider them otherwise.

In 3rd edition Shoota and Slugga boyz were actually two different kind of troops (orks had 6 troops in that codex!) with their own datasheet and even a different point cost. I wouldn't mind that considering that I never mix them up, but honestly I don't see how this would make any difference.


Honestly, If I am paying 5ppm for a useless grot Id want a hell of a lot more then the ability to eat a wound for another unit, especially when its only a 50% chance. If GW is hellbent on keeping Grotz at 5ppm then they need at a minimum a 24' grot blasta, preferably with some upgrades you can get, as well as a 5+ save and T3.

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Gretchin used to be t3. And goblins were always t3 in Warhammer fantasy. Anyone remember when grits went to t2?
   
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SemperMortis wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
The only thing that could make them worth of 5 points would be having Grot Shields as a free ability in their datasheet. Maybe not on 2+ like the stratagem but at 4+. I would never consider them otherwise.

In 3rd edition Shoota and Slugga boyz were actually two different kind of troops (orks had 6 troops in that codex!) with their own datasheet and even a different point cost. I wouldn't mind that considering that I never mix them up, but honestly I don't see how this would make any difference.


Honestly, If I am paying 5ppm for a useless grot Id want a hell of a lot more then the ability to eat a wound for another unit, especially when its only a 50% chance. If GW is hellbent on keeping Grotz at 5ppm then they need at a minimum a 24' grot blasta, preferably with some upgrades you can get, as well as a 5+ save and T3.


So you want 5 point almost-guardsmen? They should be T3, never should have been T2, and stay 6+. You're kind of stuck with Shootas being 18, so you almost have to make the grot blaster 24, and leave their BS5+ instead of 4+ like termaguants which brings me to the next thing: I'd give them a LD based special rule for when around larger Ork units probalby using Hive Mind/Synapse Creatures - toned down because I think Synapse went a little overboard (Maybe use the Synapse LD for tests instead of auto-pass + ) - as a base then orkify it. Grots have lost a lot of their flavor, even if/when they're good they're still boring.

Another idea is to bundle the Runtherd with the Grots in such a way that the more grots you take the cheaper (to potentially free) the runtherd gets. Start off with the LT system - or the TFC/Techmarine Gunner. You buy them together, but they set up and theoretically act independently as I think GW isn't going to do mixed stat units - RIP Crusader Squads - and make sure the free runtherd can't get spammed/abused. One part of this I don't like is the Runtherd is the source of the Grot funny business, so he's sniper bait. Give him the ability originate a Grot Shield on a 3+ against anything that ignores Look Out Sir!

Basically I figure Termaguants went to 5, and they're better than Grots. Grots need some boosts - in flavor, and without invalidating a different Ork choice: Meaning they need longer range shooting - definitely not a pistol - befitting their cowardly nature, neither more accurate or "better" than Shoota Boys but different. I like S2 T3 for the comparison to guardsmen. They need a "more afraid of the ork than of the space marine" leadership mechanic. The statlines are a little different, Grots would have a 24" spike rifle instead of an 18" but I think they still need a teeny tiny small really small boost beyond that. I mean they're not even but there's not a giant gulf if they fix all that. DDD is better than Hail of Living Ammunition but I'm not sure enough better. Maybe 18" grotblasters + a Camo Cloak effect? Immunity to Blast i.e. Blast weapons still roll instead of getting maxed out because they're already cowering in the ground? Something.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/09 04:50:09


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 argonak wrote:
Gretchin used to be t3. And goblins were always t3 in Warhammer fantasy. Anyone remember when grits went to t2?


No idea. They have already been T2 in my 4th edition codex.

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They were T3 (and also S3 like boyz!) in 2nd edition, became T2 since the 3rd edition codex.


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TBF, orks also once upon a time hit on 4s upwards, like guardsmen...

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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Breton wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
The only thing that could make them worth of 5 points would be having Grot Shields as a free ability in their datasheet. Maybe not on 2+ like the stratagem but at 4+. I would never consider them otherwise.

In 3rd edition Shoota and Slugga boyz were actually two different kind of troops (orks had 6 troops in that codex!) with their own datasheet and even a different point cost. I wouldn't mind that considering that I never mix them up, but honestly I don't see how this would make any difference.


Honestly, If I am paying 5ppm for a useless grot Id want a hell of a lot more then the ability to eat a wound for another unit, especially when its only a 50% chance. If GW is hellbent on keeping Grotz at 5ppm then they need at a minimum a 24' grot blasta, preferably with some upgrades you can get, as well as a 5+ save and T3.


So you want 5 point almost-guardsmen?


Uh. *Checks points cost of guardsmen* yes?

Like actually no, really what I actually want is just grots to have their current rules but be costed by someone without a rail spike through their brain. My personal solution was: OK, it seems like grots are worth about 3.5pts. And the main balance concern people have is A) a 30-point troop unit is gonna force out ork boyz and B) 30 points for an obsec unit that can score a point seems low.

OK, fair, fine, how about this:

5ppm for the first 10
you can add 10 more models for 3ppm
you can add 10 more models for 2ppm

10 gretchins: 5ppm
20 gretchins: 4ppm
30 gretchins: 3.33ppm

A 30-man unit size gives you the extra whopping S2 combat attack, it also means you'll be losing grots to morale a whole lot more as only 3 casualties is required to nearly guarantee a failed test and an attrition test on 27 models. It makes them nearly impossible to protect with KFFs, another commonly levied concern (oh, but they always have a 5++ against shooting because everything in an ork army is always under a kff all the time!) and they can still only secure 1 objective.

now, you can run large quantities of gretchins as a unit that might conceivably be worth somewhere near its point cost vs other units, or, you can run small numbers of gretchins purely as a supplementary force to an army of orks, holding objectives in the back or existing for the sole purpose of grot shields.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/09 11:21:21


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the_scotsman wrote:
Breton wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
 Blackie wrote:
The only thing that could make them worth of 5 points would be having Grot Shields as a free ability in their datasheet. Maybe not on 2+ like the stratagem but at 4+. I would never consider them otherwise.

In 3rd edition Shoota and Slugga boyz were actually two different kind of troops (orks had 6 troops in that codex!) with their own datasheet and even a different point cost. I wouldn't mind that considering that I never mix them up, but honestly I don't see how this would make any difference.


Honestly, If I am paying 5ppm for a useless grot Id want a hell of a lot more then the ability to eat a wound for another unit, especially when its only a 50% chance. If GW is hellbent on keeping Grotz at 5ppm then they need at a minimum a 24' grot blasta, preferably with some upgrades you can get, as well as a 5+ save and T3.


So you want 5 point almost-guardsmen?


Uh. *Checks points cost of guardsmen* yes?

if you pay the same pts price , are affected by similar traits and effects, ya, i am with scotsman on this one.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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Agree. It's hilarious that you think paying the price of a guardsman for something that is *almost* a guardsman is unreasonable.

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 Jidmah wrote:
Agree. It's hilarious that you think paying the price of a guardsman for something that is *almost* a guardsman is unreasonable.

well we could allways switch out the rules for cultists and their profile with that for a guardsmen. that way atleast a 5 pts guardsmen would be justified, because he would have no traits and a worse SV then the more expensive cultists.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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I think that's just conscripts.

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 Jidmah wrote:
I think that's just conscripts.

Conscripts and Guardsmen are still the same price
   
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 Jidmah wrote:
I think that's just conscripts.


conscripts still have better SV then cultists and traits, which makes cultists at 6 ppm even more memeworthy.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vict0988 wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:
I think that's just conscripts.

Conscripts and Guardsmen are still the same price

i mean the granularity is better now, considering that in 8th we also had militia and mutants share the same pts then them ....

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/09 13:11:28


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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 Jidmah wrote:
Agree. It's hilarious that you think paying the price of a guardsman for something that is *almost* a guardsman is unreasonable.


My bad, for some reason I thought guard infantry were 8. Hell I think Guardsmen probably should be 7 or 8.

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I don't think anyone would be complaining if they were.

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