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It really needs to be repeated that IH were maintaining an absurdly high winrate while still having huge representation and having lots of newer and lower skill players piloting them. Drukhari on the other hand are still relatively rare to come across in a tournament setting and their wins recently have all come from established and high-ranked players.
This is not to say that there are 0 issues with Drukhari, clearly they are incredibly overtuned with some obvious FAQ-worthy interactions, but I just like to remind people to never solely look at winrates alone.
I also think that even if those FAQ things were addressed the army would still be performing about the same as they aren't what is carrying the army. Yeah, the Succubus doing 20 wounds is ridiculous, but it isn't winning games on its own. A lot of these recent wins have been using 20 ppm Reavers so that's a non-issue almost. Eviscerating Fly-By is problematic and doesn't fit with other 9th MW strats design-wise, but from talking to numerous DE players they all say its harder to make it actually work than it appears on paper.
What is carrying the army is a similar phenomenon to Sisters; incredibly aggressively priced units that allow you to trade favourably in practically every conceivable situation. Yes: Wyches do just melt to bolter fire, but even being the most expensive of the troops choices, 10 of them in a Raider is not that expensive and requires a not insubstantial investment to get rid of. Nothing in the game can really efficiently deal with a Raider with 10 Wyches in it, at least not en-masse and this is where the strength of the army (again, like Sisters) lies.
SemperMortis wrote: Rather, I would argue, the massive over reaction to a new codex doing well is...well, obvious. It literally happens every time a new codex gets dropped, sometimes the over reactions are justified, sometimes its just players needing a bit of time and a few smaller nerfs to equalize the field.
What other time did a codex come out with a win rate this strong?
SM 2.0?
Naa, IH broke the game, on release they won like 9 from 10 tournament with the last one winner being mix IH/WS.
It was something like 90% WR with only one player underperfoming, it needed like couple of nerfs to drop their WR till 80%.
Naa, IH broke the game, on release they won like 9 from 10 tournament with the last one winner being mix IH/WS.
It was something like 90% WR with only one player underperfoming, it needed like couple of nerfs to drop their WR till 80%.
Um. No.
IH broke the game, yes. But that "breaking" was a 70-ish percent win rate ("just under 73%"(1) in that fateful weekend before any nerfs), which was at the time unheard off.
- Grey Knights were the scourge of 5th edition and are to this day the basis of the Mat-Ward memes with a win rate of about 55%, which people back in the day considered utterly and historically broken.
- Ynnari peaked in the mid-to-high-60-ish% and anything over 60% up to that point was considered pretty bad.
- IH/Marines 2.0. broke the 70% barrier for a faction for the first time since stats were recorded for 40K.
In classic "frog-in-boiling-water"-manner, people these days don't even bat an eye anymore at armies sitting at 55% or so and some people even don't consider 60% quite as disastrous as people viewed that number it in the Ynnari-days.
SemperMortis wrote: Rather, I would argue, the massive over reaction to a new codex doing well is...well, obvious. It literally happens every time a new codex gets dropped, sometimes the over reactions are justified, sometimes its just players needing a bit of time and a few smaller nerfs to equalize the field.
What other time did a codex come out with a win rate this strong?
SM 2.0?
Naa, IH broke the game, on release they won like 9 from 10 tournament with the last one winner being mix IH/WS.
It was something like 90% WR with only one player underperfoming, it needed like couple of nerfs to drop their WR till 80%.
That's not how WR works. Drukhari won what, 5/6 recent tournaments? That's 83% "WR".
SemperMortis wrote: Rather, I would argue, the massive over reaction to a new codex doing well is...well, obvious. It literally happens every time a new codex gets dropped, sometimes the over reactions are justified, sometimes its just players needing a bit of time and a few smaller nerfs to equalize the field.
What other time did a codex come out with a win rate this strong?
SM 2.0?
Naa, IH broke the game, on release they won like 9 from 10 tournament with the last one winner being mix IH/WS.
It was something like 90% WR with only one player underperfoming, it needed like couple of nerfs to drop their WR till 80%.
That's not how WR works. Drukhari won what, 5/6 recent tournaments? That's 83% "WR".
....I'm not sure if this is a troll or not, but generally people don't take a tournament, look at what faction got first place, and then use that to determine that faction's "win rate". We'd be looking at like 30 data points in a month.
"Well lets see this month we've got space marines at three, drukhari at three harlequins at one tyranids at one death guard at three and necrons at two. How about the other factions jim?"
"well we just don't know john but this situation is looking pretty dire, no faction over a thirty three percent winrate and most of them we have no way to tell."
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
SemperMortis wrote: Rather, I would argue, the massive over reaction to a new codex doing well is...well, obvious. It literally happens every time a new codex gets dropped, sometimes the over reactions are justified, sometimes its just players needing a bit of time and a few smaller nerfs to equalize the field.
What other time did a codex come out with a win rate this strong?
SM 2.0?
Naa, IH broke the game, on release they won like 9 from 10 tournament with the last one winner being mix IH/WS.
It was something like 90% WR with only one player underperfoming, it needed like couple of nerfs to drop their WR till 80%.
That's not how WR works. Drukhari won what, 5/6 recent tournaments? That's 83% "WR".
....I'm not sure if this is a troll or not, but generally people don't take a tournament, look at what faction got first place, and then use that to determine that faction's "win rate". We'd be looking at like 30 data points in a month.
That's exactly what I said, I said (That's NOT how WR works). and then when I used the term wrongly intentionally I put it in quotation marks ("WR"). The poster I was quoting was conflating Drukhari's 70% WR with Iron Hands getting first place in 8/10 GTs. If you want to compare how many GTs the faction wins that's fine if you want to compare win rate that is fine, but you should compare apples to apples when possible.
Naa, IH broke the game, on release they won like 9 from 10 tournament with the last one winner being mix IH/WS.
It was something like 90% WR with only one player underperfoming, it needed like couple of nerfs to drop their WR till 80%.
Um. No.
IH broke the game, yes. But that "breaking" was a 70-ish percent win rate ("just under 73%"(1) in that fateful weekend before any nerfs), which was at the time unheard off.
- Grey Knights were the scourge of 5th edition and are to this day the basis of the Mat-Ward memes with a win rate of about 55%, which people back in the day considered utterly and historically broken.
- Ynnari peaked in the mid-to-high-60-ish% and anything over 60% up to that point was considered pretty bad.
- IH/Marines 2.0. broke the 70% barrier for a faction for the first time since stats were recorded for 40K.
In classic "frog-in-boiling-water"-manner, people these days don't even bat an eye anymore at armies sitting at 55% or so and some people even don't consider 60% quite as disastrous as people viewed that number it in the Ynnari-days.
How can you post this vid and claim that? It`s clearly said that exlucing mirrors IH had 78% WR.
It`s annoying that you post a source and than try to squee the results to benefit your point.
Now try to exclude IH vs other SM, what will happen 80-90% WR ?
Drukhari winning 4 from 9 GT is obviously concerning, but we are far away from codex SM 2.0 and Drukhari are not 20% of the played lists.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/04/28 12:01:27
- Grey Knights were the scourge of 5th edition and are to this day the basis of the Mat-Ward memes with a win rate of about 55%, which people back in the day considered utterly and historically broken.
LoL so GK players are suffering with under design and option removal, for stuff which nowadays is considered the avarge good army win rates. I don't know why, but it made me happy. So strange,because I should not be. Thank you for the information mr Sunny, you made a boring day of school fun.
That's not how WR works. Drukhari won what, 5/6 recent tournaments? That's 83% "WR".
But that is okey, just like the 60%+ of harlequins, it is only the 50%+ win rates of mass played armies which seemed to be the problem in w40k.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Bosskelot wrote: It really needs to be repeated that IH were maintaining an absurdly high winrate while still having huge representation and having lots of newer and lower skill players piloting them. Drukhari on the other hand are still relatively rare to come across in a tournament setting and their wins recently have all come from established and high-ranked players.
This is not to say that there are 0 issues with Drukhari, clearly they are incredibly overtuned with some obvious FAQ-worthy interactions, but I just like to remind people to never solely look at winrates alone.
I also think that even if those FAQ things were addressed the army would still be performing about the same as they aren't what is carrying the army. Yeah, the Succubus doing 20 wounds is ridiculous, but it isn't winning games on its own. A lot of these recent wins have been using 20 ppm Reavers so that's a non-issue almost. Eviscerating Fly-By is problematic and doesn't fit with other 9th MW strats design-wise, but from talking to numerous DE players they all say its harder to make it actually work than it appears on paper.
What is carrying the army is a similar phenomenon to Sisters; incredibly aggressively priced units that allow you to trade favourably in practically every conceivable situation. Yes: Wyches do just melt to bolter fire, but even being the most expensive of the troops choices, 10 of them in a Raider is not that expensive and requires a not insubstantial investment to get rid of. Nothing in the game can really efficiently deal with a Raider with 10 Wyches in it, at least not en-masse and this is where the strength of the army (again, like Sisters) lies.
You are right in your analysis, but without those liquifiers the capability of DE to trade would reduce significantly.
Which probably means that Tyel is right. We either get a no change FAQ, if we are lucky something is done with the succubus. And down the line in a year or year and a half GW will do a spring FAQ that nerfs DE real hard.
Because there is no way, that GW wants to miss on the sells of a hyped up army.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Naa, IH broke the game, on release they won like 9 from 10 tournament with the last one winner being mix IH/WS.
It was something like 90% WR with only one player underperfoming, it needed like couple of nerfs to drop their WR till 80%.
Um. No.
IH broke the game, yes. But that "breaking" was a 70-ish percent win rate ("just under 73%"(1) in that fateful weekend before any nerfs), which was at the time unheard off.
- Grey Knights were the scourge of 5th edition and are to this day the basis of the Mat-Ward memes with a win rate of about 55%, which people back in the day considered utterly and historically broken.
- Ynnari peaked in the mid-to-high-60-ish% and anything over 60% up to that point was considered pretty bad.
- IH/Marines 2.0. broke the 70% barrier for a faction for the first time since stats were recorded for 40K.
In classic "frog-in-boiling-water"-manner, people these days don't even bat an eye anymore at armies sitting at 55% or so and some people even don't consider 60% quite as disastrous as people viewed that number it in the Ynnari-days.
Ad-mech hard counter drukhari by having a slightly lower than %50 winrate against them. I’m sure that goes up on bowling ball setups.
Also the fact that people consider 5th ed Grey knight the must OP army of 5th is 1 of the 2 main reasons I’m positive that most weren’t playing competitively. The other reason is that many consider it the most balanced edition of the game btw. Leafblower guard, blood angle Razorback spam, spacewolf longfang spam, necron flying circus, and demons screamer/flamer builds were far more OP and I can guarantee scored more than a 55% winrate.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/28 12:16:26
addnid wrote: We orks had the SSAG that when taken as deathskulls was utterly broken. GW never fixed that, and I hope they won’t make that kind of mistake again (not fixing I mean, the mistake of releasing the stuff, we know they will never stop repeating hah hah).
Any such thing as a SSAG deserves to be FAQed, regardless of whether the faction will still be good without it.
We know Druka will still be good even with the nerfs we are calling for
it is kind of unclear what nerfs "we" are calling for.
we're all on the same page regarding razorflail/compedge interaction and 10pt reavers obviously, I'm gonna call that 'obvious tier'
Something about Dark Technomancers, rework it somehow, suggestions range from reasonable to Xenomancers on kind of a sliding scale.
Then you've got people asking for point nerfs to....seems like mostly Succubus, Raiders, Wyches, Incubi, Hellions, Drazar, whatever's been showing up in these competitive lists.
And then you've got 'everything in the book of rust is broken, delete the whole thing it's super crazy imbalanced.'
Just so we're clear here on what we're discussing, the book of rust content for the cult of strife is 3 warlord traits, 8 stratagems, and 4 relics. Similar setup to a Space Marine codex supplement, but fewer traits, relics, and stratagems, no psychic powers obviously, no super-doctrine and no chaplain..thing.
Stratagems:
Art of the Kill: 2CP/3CP if 11+ models, reroll wounds in the fight phase
Deadly Exemplar: 1CP, when a cult of strife succubus kills a monster or a character in melee, until the end of the battle all units are within range of her 'reroll 1s to hit in melee' ability
Dance of Death: 1CP, when moving a cult of strife unit (really matters only on wyches and succubi, the only cult of strife units without FLY) you can move through terrain
Flawless Approach: 1CP when charging, no overwatch or set to defend.
Invigorated by Evisceration: 1CP when a CoS unit destroys an enemy unit in melee, they get a 4++ until the end of the opponent's turn
Blade Well Placed: 2CP, unit in melee gets to have an extra AP.
Hekatrix of the Crucibael: 1CP give a Hekatrix (a sergeant) the dark lotus toxin, the garland of spite or morvaine's whip
Pick them Apart: 2CP cult of strife can fall back and shoot+charge. (side note, hilariously this exact stratagem is available to all Drukhari, "Cruel Deception" except that you can choose to pay 1CP if you only want to shoot or only want to charge)
^Of the stratagems, the only one I've ever heard anyone say is particularly crazy is Invigorated by Evisceration, which you can use on stuff like Hellions or Reavers who don't typically have access to a 4++ defense. So you could limit it to Wyches only, in which case it's "they keep their 4++ invuln save and don't have to try and keep 1-2 enemies alive to stay protected" or you could make it 2CP and keep it anybody.
Otherwise, most of these are kind of straight up just worse than base codex options. I've already mentioned Pick them Apart is worse Cruel Deception, but the base codex cult of strife stratagem is "wyches get to fight again for 2CP". All the offensive stratagems here are worse than that. The best one, Art of the Kill, is identical to the Haemonculus Covens generic stratagem "Torturer's Craft" except that that one costs 1CP or 2CP, and this costs 2CP or 3CP. Deadly Exemplar could be kind of powerful in a full 100% cult of strife army, assuming you're able to kill a character with a succubus in melee and then not just have your opponent trade and kill her.
Relics:
Morvaine's Agonizer: has the exact stats of a normal agonizer, but you get to select 1 unit in the enemy unit, and rather than engaging in a roll-off to see if they can fall back, they just don't get to fall back.
Garland of Spite: Melee attacks by the bearer automatically hit (instead of hitting on 2s) and the bearer can select 1 enemy model within engagement range and halve their attack characteristic, rounding up.
Grave Lotus Toxin: +1 to S and D of all melee weapons used by the bearer
Glaive Exquisite: S+2 Ap-5 D2, +1 to wound if attacking enemy units with LD8 or more, if the bearer fought but did not attack enemy units with LD8 or more, she suffers 1 MW.
We all know the Grave Lotus toxin interaction with the Razorflails making them Damage 2 and then double-doubling with the Competitive Edge trait, but on its own the Grave Lotus doesn't actually stack up to many other available relics damage-wise. You could make a S+3 AP-3 D2 Archite glaive, for example, but the Glaive Exquisite and the Dancer's Edge (which any succubus can have) are both better than that and have special abilites. The best use for it other than Razorflails would be S+1 AP-2 D3 Shardnet and Impaler, which is kind of a strength 4 thunder hammer?
Comparing to some random relic melee weapons from Codex SM that I don't often hear about in competitive play:
Benediction of Fury: S+2 AP-2 D3, Extra mortal on a 6 to wound.
Burning Blade: S+3 AP-5 D2, similar to the Glaive except he's always strength 7 instead of strength 5 and sometimes +1 to wound, that's gonna work out the same fairly often.
Scimitar of the Great Khan: S+1 AP-3 D2, on a wound of 6 does 4 damage
Glaive of Vengeance: Sx2 AP-3 D3d
I'd say these seem reasonably comparable.
Warlord traits:
Competitive Edge: gain a number of bonus attacks equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the Inflict Damage stage. We know this one is broken when applied to Razorflails due to the multiplication, it actually does not deal as much damage as two of the standard traits (+2 attacks, and Wound Roll of 6 Causes Mortal Wounds Equal To Damage) when applied to most relic/normal weapon builds.
Matchless Agility: -1 to hit and wound the warlord
Master Executioner: Warlord rerolls wound rolls
So I don't know. You've got one good defensive trait, one bad offensive trait (RR wounds is worse than the two generic traits mentioned earlier against basically all targets) and one good offensive trait (better vs heavily defended targets than the competing generic succubus traits)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: Which probably means that Tyel is right. We either get a no change FAQ, if we are lucky something is done with the succubus. And down the line in a year or year and a half GW will do a spring FAQ that nerfs DE real hard.
Because there is no way, that GW wants to miss on the sells of a hyped up army.
GW is already missing on the sells of a hyped up army. They're literally 100% out of stock and have been since before the codex was even released. You cannot buy drukhari from games workshop right now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 12:22:26
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Also obviously ironhands were more of a problem than drukarki, but that gap can be measured by degrees not meters.
Finally to add to why people have strong biases in these threads, a lot of it comes down to basic human behavior of putting their value of being right in their opinions over others ands gravitating towards extremes. I am absolutely guilty of former, but do better with the latter (because I put too much of my own value in knowing what the truth is, and extremes cloud that.)
To that end you have many people gravitate towards extremes like “GW is absolute rubbish at balancing their rules. Each codex increases power creep to the 9th degree. Why isn’t SM being nerfed enough so that I never have to see them on the table.” Vs “People also overreact when new codex’s come out, So what if this book consistently beats every other army in a competitive setting? The meta will adjust and everything will be fine.” The truth however, exists in the middle of “GW is generally pretty good at making balanced and interesting rules, but bad mistakes/ outside influences will cause big problems for the game we all love (or at least love to hate) from to time to time.”
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 12:36:35
- Grey Knights were the scourge of 5th edition and are to this day the basis of the Mat-Ward memes with a win rate of about 55%, which people back in the day considered utterly and historically broken.
LoL so GK players are suffering with under design and option removal, for stuff which nowadays is considered the avarge good army win rates. I don't know why, but it made me happy. So strange,because I should not be. Thank you for the information mr Sunny, you made a boring day of school fun.
That's not how WR works. Drukhari won what, 5/6 recent tournaments? That's 83% "WR".
But that is okey, just like the 60%+ of harlequins, it is only the 50%+ win rates of mass played armies which seemed to be the problem in w40k.
I mean, be amused by this if you like, but it is just kind of a lie.
We did not have actual collected data for tournament win-rates in 5th edition. GK getting a 55% winrate was data from the 2011 NOVA open tournament only, which I'm guessing the poster here found from the same google search I did.
Also worth noting the player numbers: 136 non-GK space marines, 58 GK, 160 players on everything else combined.
This tournament also took place six months after the release of the GK codex, unlike these results (and the IH results being discussed) which took place 2 weeks after the release of the codex.
So, one tournament, six months after the meta had adapted to the book, with 1 in 5 players playing GK and over 2 in 3 playing power armor, GK got a 55% winrate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/28 12:48:39
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
How can you post this vid and claim that? It`s clearly said that exlucing mirrors IH had 78% WR.
It`s annoying that you post a source and than try to squee the results to benefit your point.
Now try to exclude IH vs other SM, what will happen 80-90% WR ?
Drukhari winning 4 from 9 GT is obviously concerning, but we are far away from codex SM 2.0 and Drukhari are not 20% of the played lists.
? So doing "normal" stats IH on pre-first-emergency-nerf had a 72-ish% win rate. Doing "normal" stats, Drukhari have a 74-ish% win rate. Percentages will change similarly, once you start excluding mirror-matches of both, obviously.
Not sure what's squeezing there.
Only if you'd compare a non-Mirror-match IH statistic vs. a include-mirror-matches-Drukhari statistic, would Iron Hands actually be worse. But that's obviously a dumb comparison.
I don't know if anyone is arguing that drukhari don't need emergency nerfs in their 2-week FAQ. The only question is where the feth that is (hopefully taking longer because theyre making some balance adjustments)
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
addnid wrote: We orks had the SSAG that when taken as deathskulls was utterly broken. GW never fixed that, and I hope they won’t make that kind of mistake again (not fixing I mean, the mistake of releasing the stuff, we know they will never stop repeating hah hah).
Any such thing as a SSAG deserves to be FAQed, regardless of whether the faction will still be good without it.
We know Druka will still be good even with the nerfs we are calling for
it is kind of unclear what nerfs "we" are calling for.
we're all on the same page regarding razorflail/compedge interaction and 10pt reavers obviously, I'm gonna call that 'obvious tier'
Something about Dark Technomancers, rework it somehow, suggestions range from reasonable to Xenomancers on kind of a sliding scale.
Then you've got people asking for point nerfs to....seems like mostly Succubus, Raiders, Wyches, Incubi, Hellions, Drazar, whatever's been showing up in these competitive lists.
And then you've got 'everything in the book of rust is broken, delete the whole thing it's super crazy imbalanced.'
Just so we're clear here on what we're discussing, the book of rust content for the cult of strife is 3 warlord traits, 8 stratagems, and 4 relics. Similar setup to a Space Marine codex supplement, but fewer traits, relics, and stratagems, no psychic powers obviously, no super-doctrine and no chaplain..thing.
Stratagems:
Art of the Kill: 2CP/3CP if 11+ models, reroll wounds in the fight phase
Deadly Exemplar: 1CP, when a cult of strife succubus kills a monster or a character in melee, until the end of the battle all units are within range of her 'reroll 1s to hit in melee' ability
Dance of Death: 1CP, when moving a cult of strife unit (really matters only on wyches and succubi, the only cult of strife units without FLY) you can move through terrain
Flawless Approach: 1CP when charging, no overwatch or set to defend.
Invigorated by Evisceration: 1CP when a CoS unit destroys an enemy unit in melee, they get a 4++ until the end of the opponent's turn
Blade Well Placed: 2CP, unit in melee gets to have an extra AP.
Hekatrix of the Crucibael: 1CP give a Hekatrix (a sergeant) the dark lotus toxin, the garland of spite or morvaine's whip
Pick them Apart: 2CP cult of strife can fall back and shoot+charge. (side note, hilariously this exact stratagem is available to all Drukhari, "Cruel Deception" except that you can choose to pay 1CP if you only want to shoot or only want to charge)
^Of the stratagems, the only one I've ever heard anyone say is particularly crazy is Invigorated by Evisceration, which you can use on stuff like Hellions or Reavers who don't typically have access to a 4++ defense. So you could limit it to Wyches only, in which case it's "they keep their 4++ invuln save and don't have to try and keep 1-2 enemies alive to stay protected" or you could make it 2CP and keep it anybody.
Otherwise, most of these are kind of straight up just worse than base codex options. I've already mentioned Pick them Apart is worse Cruel Deception, but the base codex cult of strife stratagem is "wyches get to fight again for 2CP". All the offensive stratagems here are worse than that. The best one, Art of the Kill, is identical to the Haemonculus Covens generic stratagem "Torturer's Craft" except that that one costs 1CP or 2CP, and this costs 2CP or 3CP. Deadly Exemplar could be kind of powerful in a full 100% cult of strife army, assuming you're able to kill a character with a succubus in melee and then not just have your opponent trade and kill her.
Relics:
Morvaine's Agonizer: has the exact stats of a normal agonizer, but you get to select 1 unit in the enemy unit, and rather than engaging in a roll-off to see if they can fall back, they just don't get to fall back.
Garland of Spite: Melee attacks by the bearer automatically hit (instead of hitting on 2s) and the bearer can select 1 enemy model within engagement range and halve their attack characteristic, rounding up.
Grave Lotus Toxin: +1 to S and D of all melee weapons used by the bearer
Glaive Exquisite: S+2 Ap-5 D2, +1 to wound if attacking enemy units with LD8 or more, if the bearer fought but did not attack enemy units with LD8 or more, she suffers 1 MW.
We all know the Grave Lotus toxin interaction with the Razorflails making them Damage 2 and then double-doubling with the Competitive Edge trait, but on its own the Grave Lotus doesn't actually stack up to many other available relics damage-wise. You could make a S+3 AP-3 D2 Archite glaive, for example, but the Glaive Exquisite and the Dancer's Edge (which any succubus can have) are both better than that and have special abilites. The best use for it other than Razorflails would be S+1 AP-2 D3 Shardnet and Impaler, which is kind of a strength 4 thunder hammer?
Comparing to some random relic melee weapons from Codex SM that I don't often hear about in competitive play:
Benediction of Fury: S+2 AP-2 D3, Extra mortal on a 6 to wound.
Burning Blade: S+3 AP-5 D2, similar to the Glaive except he's always strength 7 instead of strength 5 and sometimes +1 to wound, that's gonna work out the same fairly often.
Scimitar of the Great Khan: S+1 AP-3 D2, on a wound of 6 does 4 damage
Glaive of Vengeance: Sx2 AP-3 D3d
I'd say these seem reasonably comparable.
Warlord traits:
Competitive Edge: gain a number of bonus attacks equal to the number of attacks that did not reach the Inflict Damage stage. We know this one is broken when applied to Razorflails due to the multiplication, it actually does not deal as much damage as two of the standard traits (+2 attacks, and Wound Roll of 6 Causes Mortal Wounds Equal To Damage) when applied to most relic/normal weapon builds.
Matchless Agility: -1 to hit and wound the warlord
Master Executioner: Warlord rerolls wound rolls
So I don't know. You've got one good defensive trait, one bad offensive trait (RR wounds is worse than the two generic traits mentioned earlier against basically all targets) and one good offensive trait (better vs heavily defended targets than the competing generic succubus traits)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote: Which probably means that Tyel is right. We either get a no change FAQ, if we are lucky something is done with the succubus. And down the line in a year or year and a half GW will do a spring FAQ that nerfs DE real hard.
Because there is no way, that GW wants to miss on the sells of a hyped up army.
GW is already missing on the sells of a hyped up army. They're literally 100% out of stock and have been since before the codex was even released. You cannot buy drukhari from games workshop right now.
This could be just be anecdotal, but in my experience “blade well place” and “art of the kill” are significantly better than the fight again strat in most situations. (Unless I’m crazy and the fight again happens immediately) and not at the end of the fight phase). Wyches main weakness is getting hit back, so being able to front-load all your damage (same with any other cult unit). That way you kill your target before it swings back. Otherwise wyches will often have the play pattern of ; charge in, kill some of the opposing unit, lose a good chunk of the squad in return, and debate on whether or not the fight again strat is worth it.
Vs wyches charge in, pop art of kill and/or blade well place, and whipe out the opposing unit.
How can you post this vid and claim that? It`s clearly said that exlucing mirrors IH had 78% WR.
It`s annoying that you post a source and than try to squee the results to benefit your point.
Now try to exclude IH vs other SM, what will happen 80-90% WR ?
Drukhari winning 4 from 9 GT is obviously concerning, but we are far away from codex SM 2.0 and Drukhari are not 20% of the played lists.
? So doing "normal" stats IH on pre-first-emergency-nerf had a 72-ish% win rate. Doing "normal" stats, Drukhari have a 74-ish% win rate. Percentages will change similarly, once you start excluding mirror-matches of both, obviously.
Not sure what's squeezing there.
Only if you'd compare a non-Mirror-match IH statistic vs. a include-mirror-matches-Drukhari statistic, would Iron Hands actually be worse. But that's obviously a dumb comparison.
You are joking right ? Did you listen to the video you posted ?
Dont`t you realize that SM are couple of times more used factions and for that reason there are alot more mirrors ?
IH HAD 78% WR including games vs other space marines.
This most broken Drukhari weekend, drukhari have less than 70% WR excluding mirrors.
Do you try to convince people that minimal 8% WR is nothing when one of the factions i used couple of times more ?
Just stop posting stats and stick to your personal opinion please.
the fight again does not happen immediately. It is also limited only to Wyches, while Art of the Kill and Blade Well Placed could be used by Hellions, Reavers and Succubi, so they are more options.
I guess I just have a difficult time saying that RR wounds for 2CP on a 10-wych unit is all that crazy. Generally, if you equate rr to wound to +2 to wound (which it's usually pretty close to, percentage-wise) most stratagems are +1 to wound for 1CP, rr to wound for 2CP, fight again for 3CP.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
GW definitely needs to take a measured approach to this, not a knee jerk reaction. I don't care what people are saying, it is still too early (discount it all you want). Players have been going to tournaments recently with the mindset of how to tackle elite, durable infantry, Period. They are packing low shot, high damage weapons for AT duty. No one was planning on having to counter newkhari, no one. Their armies are completely unsuited for tackling the new threat.
For sure FAQ the obvious (Reavers, succubus with CoS trait, DT with autohit weapons), but leave the rest alone (unless maybe cap Eviscerating flyby to 10), until we see more data.
I want to see that second round of data, when players are considering Drukhari as a major opponent, and are planning to counter it. If that dataset sees the winrate drop, great. If it stays the same or increases, then yes, let's have the discussion. Interestingly, counters to drukhari will also inadvertently hit Quin win rates too.
Drukhari are so different to what's been winning 9th so far, there was no question that a good Drukhari codex was going to shift the meta. However, that does not mean broken, not yet. Broken is when armies are designed with playing vs those lists and still lose heavily nonetheless.
the_scotsman wrote: I don't know if anyone is arguing that drukhari don't need emergency nerfs in their 2-week FAQ. The only question is where the feth that is (hopefully taking longer because theyre making some balance adjustments)
I encourage everyone to send a polite email to 40KFAQ@gwplc.com and ask them to release the FAQ.
I admittedly have only played against Cult of Strife 1 time, but my experience was that the CoS stuff outside of the 1 combo isn't particularly amazing.
The CoS trait is I would say a bit worse than the competing other two traits:
CoS: +1 to charge if no other units are in engagement range of target units, always fight first
Cursed Blade: +1 to strength, save of 6 causes a mortal wound to the attacker
Red Grief: +2 to advance rolls, reroll charge rolls
Available custom trait halves: +1 to wound vs Vehicles and Monsters in melee, enemy rolls 2d6 takes the highest for morale tests, always move through terrain, all units cause a MW on a 6 when charging
so while theyve got more options in terms of stratagems than the other cults, they start from a baseline of dealing significantly less damage compared to either custom traits or cursed blade.
When I played against them, for example, my opponent burned a CP to stop me from overwatching when he could have led in with a transport first but didn't want to give up needing a 6 to get in. Then he used the RR wounds stratagem to wound me 58% of the time instead of 33% - but if he'd been playing Cult of the Cursed Blade he could have charged in with the transport first to deny/eat overwatch, then charged in with the wyches and wounded me 50% of the time, spending 0cp instead of 3cp to do so.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
Bosskelot wrote: It really needs to be repeated that IH were maintaining an absurdly high winrate while still having huge representation and having lots of newer and lower skill players piloting them. Drukhari on the other hand are still relatively rare to come across in a tournament setting and their wins recently have all come from established and high-ranked players.
This is not to say that there are 0 issues with Drukhari, clearly they are incredibly overtuned with some obvious FAQ-worthy interactions, but I just like to remind people to never solely look at winrates alone.
I also think that even if those FAQ things were addressed the army would still be performing about the same as they aren't what is carrying the army. Yeah, the Succubus doing 20 wounds is ridiculous, but it isn't winning games on its own. A lot of these recent wins have been using 20 ppm Reavers so that's a non-issue almost. Eviscerating Fly-By is problematic and doesn't fit with other 9th MW strats design-wise, but from talking to numerous DE players they all say its harder to make it actually work than it appears on paper.
What is carrying the army is a similar phenomenon to Sisters; incredibly aggressively priced units that allow you to trade favourably in practically every conceivable situation. Yes: Wyches do just melt to bolter fire, but even being the most expensive of the troops choices, 10 of them in a Raider is not that expensive and requires a not insubstantial investment to get rid of. Nothing in the game can really efficiently deal with a Raider with 10 Wyches in it, at least not en-masse and this is where the strength of the army (again, like Sisters) lies.
This is what gets me.
LVO 2019 was...
Castellan
Ynnari
Castellan
Castellan
Ynnari
Tau
Chaos
Eldar
And right now with DE pulling the same WR we have...
Knights
Admech
Custodes
DE
or
Nids
T'au
Custodes/AM DG
or
DE Admech
Harlies
CSM/TS
Is it 9th missions that keep DE from sweeping everything? Bad matchups? Difficulty getting high scores in some games? Perhaps if LVO or Adepticon were happening right now it would be different?
It is very hard to judge the real situation.
It is clear that at the moment DE are very very strong. Potentially broken strong. Point is that there are 3-4 dubious interactions right now that are surely boosting this efficency. I would wait the first FAQ and if those interactions are fixed, give it a month of time to stabilize before calling for nerfs.
It really is hard, yes.
I suspect the best approach will be to start taking apart lists that are placing well. See what the common elements are. Then look at those lists in play. Is it a specific unit or units that are overperforming in practice, or is it the army as a whole? Are DE achieving a certain set of secondaries too easily, or able to block their opponent from doing so over efficiently?
After that, we're still left with variables that it's difficult to account for: DE being a rarer, exotic army. The prevalence of Marine lists at any events, and the DE 'counter' factor to such lists. Covids impact on event turnout in many locations.
It's a worthwhile starting point at least.
I'm encouraged by the fact that I'm yet to come across a fellow Drukhari player that doesn't want balance also. We want an army that can perform, but we also want to win or lose based on our play - not based on a set of rules that makes the result almost a foregone conclusion.
All good questions.
From what I have looked at for lists it is rare to not have at least two of the three big ones ( Razorflail, DT, 10 point Reavers ). A very small handful have none and still do well. Those I need to go back and look at again, but I am fairly certain featured lots of Brides and Wyches. I'll poke around again a bit later.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/28 13:40:09
Incidentally it didn't matter because I was playing Deathwatch and I had embedded terminators and storm shields in heavy cover, so he killed 1 terminator and 1 storm shield vet with his 3CP expenditure, and then the remaining 8 marines punched 7 wyches to death and the rest ran away, and the squad kept shooting on my next turn.
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah probably. Full DT would get completely fething demolished by comp quinns. Just utterly destroyed. Also any of the weird funky skew lists like nids with the un-attackable harridan or DG with morty or Necron silver tide would probably just eat it for lunch as well.
The DT detachment that everyone is just slapping into their comp DE lists is actually just patrol, Drazar, 3x wrack squads, and the Raiders are DT if theyre not taking BH or Obrose.
That's it. but that exact same detachment appears in like 6 or 7 of the top placing drukhari lists from the last week. Nobodys bothering to bring liq grots or cronos engines at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post: its a weird, unfun skew list that I dont want to result in units and options that aren't otherwise Op getting point bumps.
they could just straight up delete DT for all i care, it's not interesting and I feel the same level of sympathy for someone who built a 2000 point army around it as i do for someone who built like a Guard infinite daemon summoning loop army in 7th ed.
I really don't care what they do - I think it would work better like this. They can chose to deal a mortal wound to themselves and their target unit any time they successfully wound something.
Would you play a Marine chapter where that was the whole Chapter Tactic? Deal 1 mortal wound to the target and the firing unit? You just made a very silly suggestion.
It's only silly until you realize...they have a 5+ FNP. The raiders don't but it's still a big advantage to be able to trade mortals when you know what the stakes are.
+1 to Wound and damage is obviously too good. Even +1 to wound or damage would be too good. It was just an idea anyhow - Perhaps it should come with a +1 str to the weapon being used...kinda like...infernals imperial knights.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/28 13:54:49
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Daedalus81 wrote: Is it 9th missions that keep DE from sweeping everything? Bad matchups? Difficulty getting high scores in some games? Perhaps if LVO or Adepticon were happening right now it would be different?
It's just weird...
I suspect no army will achieve the level of dominance in 9th because the turn 1 advantage remains massive - and I feel this is no different for DE.
Then you have that if the DE are mainly taking choppy units (characters, incubi, wyches) - you can always fail a run of easy charges and consequently lose the game.
So even if DE were the best faction in the game right now regardless of matchup, you probably still wouldn't expect them to win every tournament out there - or at least not until they make up a far greater percentage of the playerbase.
Daedalus81 wrote: Is it 9th missions that keep DE from sweeping everything? Bad matchups? Difficulty getting high scores in some games? Perhaps if LVO or Adepticon were happening right now it would be different?
It's just weird...
I suspect no army will achieve the level of dominance in 9th because the turn 1 advantage remains massive - and I feel this is no different for DE.
Then you have that if the DE are mainly taking choppy units (characters, incubi, wyches) - you can always fail a run of easy charges and consequently lose the game.
So even if DE were the best faction in the game right now regardless of matchup, you probably still wouldn't expect them to win every tournament out there - or at least not until they make up a far greater percentage of the playerbase.
Fast movement and fly keyword...typically you'll do better going second. Don't have the data but it is likely DE still do really well going second.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Xenomancers wrote: Fast movement and fly keyword...typically you'll do better going second. Don't have the data but it is likely DE still do really well going second.
If you are playing someone who can't touch your raiders - or the terrain allows you to successfully hide them - then sure.
Daedalus81 wrote: Is it 9th missions that keep DE from sweeping everything? Bad matchups? Difficulty getting high scores in some games? Perhaps if LVO or Adepticon were happening right now it would be different?
It's just weird...
I suspect no army will achieve the level of dominance in 9th because the turn 1 advantage remains massive - and I feel this is no different for DE.
Then you have that if the DE are mainly taking choppy units (characters, incubi, wyches) - you can always fail a run of easy charges and consequently lose the game.
So even if DE were the best faction in the game right now regardless of matchup, you probably still wouldn't expect them to win every tournament out there - or at least not until they make up a far greater percentage of the playerbase.
I don't know that the turn 1 advantage is as pronounced for those who deploy conservatively. A lot of games I've played are very cagey early on ( depends on the opponent's list ). The scoring at the end of the game has also been a huge change. It really changes the calculus of your final actions.
That said if we took the Nids vs DE earlier in the thread and the DE player went second he'd probably be in a world of hurt, because he deployed on the line and out in the open.
So, not necessarily the design of the game, but the choices of the player.
