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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Okay. A couple days off to think about things does wonders.

The core point here is NOT 'who should we attack for not welcoming women gamers into wargaming'?. It's 'how do we get more women into wargaming?', something that seems to have been lost along the way.

As a manager, I have found there are two general strategies to getting people to do what you want.

The first, most widely used, is negative reinforcement. Punishment. This ranges from scolding to termination. It generally gets lackluster results at best, as the person being punished feels wronged and, if they co-operate at all, do so grudgingly and in a lackluster manner. Hardly ideal under the best of circumstances.

Under these circumstances? Completely counterproductive. An employee at least has the motivation to work with you because they're being paid to. A game group? Scold them, punish them by chasing them out of a public venue, they retreat to their homes and play there. Women players remain unwelcome and the punished game group are even LESS willing to consider changing their minds.

The method I prefer to use as a manager is positive reinforcement. Rewards. Showing people how doing what I want will make things better for them - and not in a 'this is how you don't get fired' sort of way. But this requires understanding WHY they feel the way they feel. It's harder to do than just resorting to scolding and write-ups... but the results are well worth it. The worker comes on board fully. Instead of working in a lackluster manner not caring whether things fail, they are actively trying to make things succeed.

This is the place where you figure out how to make corporate's new policy that is... shall we say, less than optimal from the workers point of view?... into something functional and useful. Or at the very least, detail the EXACT places where it breaks down despite our best efforts and make that SPECIFIC information available for corporate's use in revising policy. And sometimes we're all surprised when what looked to us like a disaster waiting to happen actually works way better than we thought it would... but only IF we're all on board and willing to pull together and make it work.

All because I was able to get the workers to change their minds.

So. Apply this idea here. We want to get more women into wargames. Does scolding and punishing wargamers who don't want women in wargaming result in more women being accepted into wargaming?. No.

Does attacking those who agree with the goal of getting more women into wargaming because they have the background, experience, and empathy to understand why some people don't want women in wargaming get more women into wargaming? No. Indeed, it can drive someone who would be a friend and ally into becoming an opponent. Rather counterproductive, don't you think?

I get it. The male instinct is to charge straight in and attack. Show the girls we're aggressively trying to fix the problem. We want to be the knight-errant, charging in and chase off the metaphorical dragon.

But... isn't aggressive behavior toward 'the other' a good chunk of problem? I expect women are not very impressed by people claiming to be on their side engaging in the exact behavior they want to see changed. They don't want the dragon gone, they want to join the dragon in his games!

So what's the point of this aggressive behavior? Of attacking those who disagree? To paraphrase an earlier post, 'If your behavior does not fix the problem, change your behavior'.

To get a behavior to change, the very first step is getting the person to want to change. Attacking them does not accomplish this. Instead, you need to understand their point of view, and shape your approach based on that.

Going back to my earlier post on some wargamers having been exposed to mircoaggression - and even not-so-microagression - from the popular clique. To a wargamer whose whole and entire experience with women is nothing BUT microaggression is not going to feel any more positively about women than an African-American whose whole and entire experience with Caucasians is nothing but microaggression.

So the argument to get this person to accept a woman wargamer is not to argue they are wrong. Their personal experience is different; they will not agree with you and will simply entrench more firmly in their belief. You are no closer to the goal of getting more women into wargames.

Instead, you help them understand that women wargamers ALSO experience those micro( and not-so-micro )aggressions. If they're classmates, odds are they've suffered those aggressions at the hands of the same exact aggressors. Give them a common ground to meet on and build from there.

This is all the more important given most 'gamer geeks' are also heavily introverted. Unlike an extrovert, for whom building new relations is as easy as breathing, an introvert has to consciously WORK at it. The work is a lot easier when the other person is also an introvert - you 'get' each other better. And if their life experience of attempting to build new relationships is full of microaggressions from others, that work has a lot less (if any) reward to it. So the outsider coming into this environment has to bear this in mind. The best way to alienate an introvert is to demand friendship from them when they barely know you. It takes time to get close to even the most outgoing and socially experienced introvert.

I speak of this from experience AS an introvert. Now, in my middle age, yes, I can talk to someone I just met and be friendly and socially agreeable. That doesn't mean I want to go out with you after the game for a casual drink or hang out at your house playing videogames or anything; I don't know you and won't be comfortable doing so. It takes time for the relationship to grow enough for me to actually comfortable with you, instead of feigning it in a socially acceptable manner.

As a young teenager? I was a total basket case around strangers. Took me years to get past it, well into my twenties.

The best description of how it works is that an introvert is really only comfortable alone by him( or her )self. To become their friend, you have to have spent enough time around them that you've become part of their definition of 'him( or her )self'. This is obviously not a fast process. But once you're part of that person's definition of themselves, the bond you forge there is very strong.

Sound unfair? Possibly. But the goal is not to push introverts OUT of wargaming, it's to get more women into wargaming. Taking the time to allow that bond to grow will turn those introverts from your opponent into a strong ally and friend.

And is that not the ultimate goal? For us all to be friends wargaming together?

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Bodt

Or, and hear me out here, we could simply allow women/girls who want to get into wargaming to enter the stores and buy the items they want/require, and leave it at that?

Simple as that. No social engineering required.
And we know it works because plenty of female wargamers/painters have already done it!


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Longtime Dakkanaut




 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Or, and hear me out here, we could simply allow women/girls who want to get into wargaming to enter the stores and buy the items they want/require, and leave it at that?

Simple as that. No social engineering required.
And we know it works because plenty of female wargamers/painters have already done it!

We've also heard multiple times that there's a certain "fragrance" inside a significant number of hobby stores that acts as a repellent for a lot of people (and apparently especially women). Reducing such hurdles could increase the amount of potential wargaming enthusiasts. And hear me out here, we could do the same for all kinds of issues and not just smell based complications.

We could try to improve the situation instead of assuming it's as good as can get. Some of these improvements might be more impactful for some groups than others (men/women, kids/adults,…). Because the status quo seems to caused by social engineering too, just in a way you don't seem to be able—or willing—to perceive or acknowledge.
   
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Bodt

Agree 100% about reisty folks, but what are you going to do about that? If people still smell in this age of abundant showers and soaps you're never going to change them, and the only way to stop them getting into events and shops would be a sniff check at the entrance barring folks who don't meet the standard.

But that's just one of those things. Sometimes you have to put up with things you don't like.

Disagree on the last point. No one has engineered wargaming/hobby spaces to be this way, it's just how it's evolved naturally. There is nothing stopping females from getting into the hobby. They are perfectly capable of learning the games and setting up clubs, same as everyone else.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/22 20:58:05


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St. Louis

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Agree 100% about reisty folks, but what are you going to do about that? If people still smell in this age of abundant showers and soaps you're never going to change them, and the only way to stop them getting into events and shops would be a sniff check at the entrance barring folks who don't meet the standard.

But that's just one of those things. Sometimes you have to put up with things you don't like.

Disagree on the last point. No one has engineered wargaming/hobby spaces to be this way, it's just how it's evolved naturally. There is nothing stopping females from getting into the hobby. They are perfectly capable of learning the games and setting up clubs, same as everyone else.

I mean, we don't let people who actively smell of urine and dead animals go to restaurants, I don't see why it should be any different for game stores.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Laughing Man wrote:
 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Agree 100% about reisty folks, but what are you going to do about that? If people still smell in this age of abundant showers and soaps you're never going to change them, and the only way to stop them getting into events and shops would be a sniff check at the entrance barring folks who don't meet the standard.

But that's just one of those things. Sometimes you have to put up with things you don't like.

Disagree on the last point. No one has engineered wargaming/hobby spaces to be this way, it's just how it's evolved naturally. There is nothing stopping females from getting into the hobby. They are perfectly capable of learning the games and setting up clubs, same as everyone else.

I mean, we don't let people who actively smell of urine and dead animals go to restaurants, I don't see why it should be any different for game stores.


Do wargamer shop people smell of urine and dead animals? No...
Would a bad BO person be told to leave any other shop? I suppose it depends on the shop.

Personal Hygene is a touchy subject for peeople, because, its, well.. personal.

I wonder if an adoption of "Personal Hygine Required in this shop" or other such notice in doors/windows of GW stores and 3rd party shops would have any positive effect.
Not sure how common this is tbh. 1/3 shops ? 1/2 communities?
Would such notice not ostracize the hobby from main stream passers by more so than it is already? I can fully imagine people walking past seeing the sign and sniggering.

The fact this is remotely necessary is kind of cringy..
We know this problem isn't stricly tied to Wargaming. This is an issues at MGT, and all manner of nerdy conventions as well as Gyms.

I think its a very good question. How exactly would you effectively get people to shower/step up their hygiene game?

I think the best approach would be take someone I was playing with, off to the the sides make sure nobody else can hear, and just say " hey.. This is a bit awkward. But we gotta share this space, and in the nicest possible way, just gotta tell you man, you could really do with a shower."

If it turns out to be a medical issue (some people have this) Id apologise profusely I guess.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 01:17:41


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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


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 Laughing Man wrote:
 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Agree 100% about reisty folks, but what are you going to do about that? If people still smell in this age of abundant showers and soaps you're never going to change them, and the only way to stop them getting into events and shops would be a sniff check at the entrance barring folks who don't meet the standard.

But that's just one of those things. Sometimes you have to put up with things you don't like.

Disagree on the last point. No one has engineered wargaming/hobby spaces to be this way, it's just how it's evolved naturally. There is nothing stopping females from getting into the hobby. They are perfectly capable of learning the games and setting up clubs, same as everyone else.

I mean, we don't let people who actively smell of urine and dead animals go to restaurants, I don't see why it should be any different for game stores.


Agreed. No need to be rude about it, but yes. Some people need to be politely asked to go home and shower before coming inside. May not solve private club issues, won't even touch private groups playing at home, but public venues really should be more aware of this. Not least of which because most adult guy gamers hate stinky gamers too.

I have a friend (he wasn't part of the Game Nite group) with a medical condition that caused him to sweat heavily at the slightest excuse. But he didn't smell because he showered two or more times every day, and used strong deodorants. It can be done! As has been said, there's really no good excuse for body odor funk in modern America.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Argive wrote:

We know this problem isn't stricly tied to Wargaming. This is an issues at MGT, and all manner of nerdy conventions as well as Gyms.


To be fair, there's a darn good reason a gym smells of fresh sweat. That's rather the point of going to the gym in the first place, to work up a sweat. Although if the gym staff has anything on the ball, they'll be cleaning, disinfecting, and deodorizing as much as is reasonably possible to keep that aroma from becoming funk.

And there's a wee bit of difference between the unpleasant smell of fresh sweat, and the funk of someone marinading in their own smells for weeks or more.

I think its a very good question. How exactly would you effectively get people to shower/step up their hygiene game?

I think the best approach would be take someone I was playing with, off to the the sides make sure nobody else can hear, and just say " hey.. This is a bit awkward. But we gotta share this space, and in the nicest possible way, just gotta tell you man, you could really do with a shower."

If it turns out to be a medical issue (some people have this) Id apologise profusely I guess.


We agree, No need to be rude, no need to publicly embarrass the poor (likely very socially awkward) person. Odds are when they realize you can smell them they'll be plenty embarrassed enough. That's pretty much the perfect way to handle it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 01:33:22


CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
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Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Having been that guy before, it's because you don't think anyone can smell you.
You can't smell yourself (I assume because you're used to it), and everyone else is even further away from you than your own nose is, so they definitely can't smell you. No one's mentioned anything, which is even more evidence that it's not an issue.
You sort of need someone to shatter that assumption for you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 07:30:18


 
   
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Often it's not even that they need a shower, it might be a jacket that they don't wash frequently enough, or maybe it's an issue of the deodorant they use not working.
   
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Dakka Veteran



London

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

Disagree on the last point. No one has engineered wargaming/hobby spaces to be this way, it's just how it's evolved naturally. There is nothing stopping females from getting into the hobby. They are perfectly capable of learning the games and setting up clubs, same as everyone else.


So I would argue that wargame groups and associated ecosystem are more welcoming of men than women, with women being the white elephant in terms of people dealing with them. So it isn't yet a case of let them come if they want to, because it isn't a fair level of access. the argument of let them come if they want to of course has a fairly negative history when it comes to women doing stuff that was regarded as for men.

then you cross into professional wargames and there getting women to participate is a critical business requirement and the traditional route of recruiting wargamers doesn't work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Las wrote:
I think all of the reasons brought up in this thread certainly contribute to the discrepancy. I do also think that the comparisons to other tabletop games (RPGs, boardgames) are not as applicable as many people think.

The elephant in the room when it comes to wargames is in the tile. War. Women, on average, are less interested in war as a concept (I have no data on this, it's just my first-hand experience). Obviously, there are many who are (about 1/4 of my professors on the subject back in university were women). I would also note that the subject matter of violence (say, in a dungeon crawl RPG or board-game) is not the same as war.

I'm just skeptical that the wargaming population would ever, or necessarily should strive to be, reflective of the population gender-wise.


So what are comparable activities?

Female interest in war has varied over time, currently it is seen as not for girls, but in the past (especially 18th and 19th century) women were encouraged to support militarism and send their sons off to participate. And indeed lots played wargames (see previous article links).

And no there shouldn't be an effort to get X numbers of Y people in. Wargaming, my favourite hobby, should just be as easy to get into for others as it was for me. And hopefully some are decent people and fancy a game!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 13:54:07


 
   
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The_Real_Chris wrote:
So I would argue that wargame groups and associated ecosystem are more welcoming of men than women, with women being the white elephant in terms of people dealing with them. So it isn't yet a case of let them come if they want to, because it isn't a fair level of access. the argument of let them come if they want to of course has a fairly negative history when it comes to women doing stuff that was regarded as for men.
As something of a side thought on this - i'm curious how many people here got into the hobby via anything formally organised.

The majority, if not all of the players I started out with at the very start of my wargaming were local players at home or in school with next to no time spent in any game store or hobby shop save in and out with impatent parents to pick something off the shelf that had been seen in a magazine. Board games like space quest and blood bowl, and the boxed starter 2nd edition set were entry points but there was no 'ecosystem' save that which we made for ourselves, and the social expectations of others.

What percentage of players actually get into the hobby via playing games in an actual brick and mortar shop these days I wonder? In all my time personally in the hobby i've played exactly half of a bloodbowl game inside an actual store.
And relatedly, how significant are games with broader availability to bringing players in - space crusade for instance, and GWs recent push on computer games.
   
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Hogtown

The_Real_Chris wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Las wrote:
I think all of the reasons brought up in this thread certainly contribute to the discrepancy. I do also think that the comparisons to other tabletop games (RPGs, boardgames) are not as applicable as many people think.

The elephant in the room when it comes to wargames is in the tile. War. Women, on average, are less interested in war as a concept (I have no data on this, it's just my first-hand experience). Obviously, there are many who are (about 1/4 of my professors on the subject back in university were women). I would also note that the subject matter of violence (say, in a dungeon crawl RPG or board-game) is not the same as war.

I'm just skeptical that the wargaming population would ever, or necessarily should strive to be, reflective of the population gender-wise.


So what are comparable activities?


I assume that you're referring to my point that TTRPGs and boardgames as categories are too broad to be compared to wargaming. I gave a few examples of comparable subcategories of those (avalon hill or the many hex-based military games, roleplaying games set in wars). I would also add to that tactical military strategy video games like Total War, RTS games like Starcraft, Company of Heroes or Dawn of War, or grand strategy games that are about war like Hearts of Iron. I would hazard a guess that men who play these games outnumber women by a large percentage. On the modelling front, the closest thing would be non-game scale military modelling.


The_Real_Chris wrote:

Female interest in war has varied over time, currently it is seen as not for girls, but in the past (especially 18th and 19th century) women were encouraged to support militarism and send their sons off to participate. And indeed lots played wargames (see previous article links).

And no there shouldn't be an effort to get X numbers of Y people in. Wargaming, my favourite hobby, should just be as easy to get into for others as it was for me. And hopefully some are decent people and fancy a game!


On your first point, what you're referring to is not the same as interest in war. Enthusiasm for war in the militarist societies of Europe in the 19th century was socially engineered and enforced by consensus dictated from the top down. It was, in fact, the result of strict social codes that served a political purpose and actually harshly segmented military affairs away from women. Most obviously by excluding them from military service and education. I would confidently argue that there are more women expressing interest in military history and war today as a result of the opening of our society than at the height of European militarism.

Further, support for war as policy and the supremacy of the military as a political institution is not synonymous with personal interest in war as a concept.

On your second point, I couldn't agree more.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/23 14:54:50


 
   
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Bristol (UK)

A.T. wrote:
As something of a side thought on this - i'm curious how many people here got into the hobby via anything formally organised.

Speaking for myself, although I was introduced to 40k through school I was cemented in the local GW.
1hr after school once a week, with kids that were more interested in messing around than playing games, meant very little playing actually happened in school. Instead, I played at the newbies games nights on Saturdays in the local GW store, then graduated to the more usual games nights on Sundays.
In hindsight I wouldn't recommend it, but honestly if you were introduced to it through friends you might even know that independent stores or games club even exist - I didn't when I was starting out. Even after I joined Dakka I thought "FLGS" would only refer to a GW and that that was what everyone was doing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/23 14:45:49


 
   
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As something of a side thought on this - i'm curious how many people here got into the hobby via anything formally organised.
.

Not I said the Turnip guy, more or less lucky rolls on the random encounter table, had one mate from Primary school who was into likewise the FF books and all things Tolkien

My local nerdherd formed out of a guy that knows a guy cascade early in secondary school, started with rpgs AD&D and Warhammer RPG and moved onto 40k having seen it pushed in White Dwarf, we didnt have a hobby shop in the shire till the mid-90s other than some GW minis in the model shop, the nearest GW was a 2hr train ride (I think, any other Devon hobbits confirm GW Torquay was before Exeter or Plymouth ?)

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I got my start playing with a friend, but as someone who really likes to teach new players, I'd wager a decent majority of people I've pulled in have come from playing in public and talking people up in the middle of my game and offering demos. Board/Card/RPG players stopping what they're doing to watch are a huge audience in my experience.
   
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So a comment about venue aesthetics. In my town there's a game store that's rough and improved inside. The gaming area looks like a large unfinished attic, because it is. The other store has always tried to give a polished vibe, clean, well lit, and continues to improve and refine it's decor and looks. This latter shop I would say has a much higher ratio of female gamers present on a given day.

There's something about making a venue look like a place a civilised human being would be at that may be helpful in reminding humans to act civilised.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




queen_annes_revenge wrote:Disagree on the last point. No one has engineered wargaming/hobby spaces to be this way, it's just how it's evolved naturally. There is nothing stopping females from getting into the hobby. They are perfectly capable of learning the games and setting up clubs, same as everyone else.
If we accept "evolved naturally" then we also have to acknowledge that a lot of stuff that has evolve naturally is not optimal, could be actually bad, could be improved upon, or is even an evolutionary dead end that may not survive into the future.

So why not try to make things better in some way? It's a better attitude than shrugging and just ignoring everything that's the slightest bit out of your comfort zone.
   
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St. Louis

 RegularGuy wrote:
So a comment about venue aesthetics. In my town there's a game store that's rough and improved inside. The gaming area looks like a large unfinished attic, because it is. The other store has always tried to give a polished vibe, clean, well lit, and continues to improve and refine it's decor and looks. This latter shop I would say has a much higher ratio of female gamers present on a given day.

There's something about making a venue look like a place a civilised human being would be at that may be helpful in reminding humans to act civilised.

Honestly I'm surprised that men play in an unfinished attic.
   
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Devon, UK

 Turnip Jedi wrote:

, the nearest GW was a 2hr train ride (I think, any other Devon hobbits confirm GW Torquay was before Exeter or Plymouth ?)


It was indeed, by some margin IIRC. I remember insisting on dragging both parents and grandparents in search of it one year around 1990 while down in the English Riviera for a show. I think it was Little and Large, but it may have been Bobby Davro.

Exeter didn't open until I was out of school and earning money in a Saturday job, so maybe 94/95? Used to take the 3 hour bus ride, only to the have to kill 7 hours before the 3 hour bus ride back.

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So how do we make Yankee Candle more appealing to men I wonder?

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 Laughing Man wrote:
 RegularGuy wrote:
So a comment about venue aesthetics. In my town there's a game store that's rough and improved inside. The gaming area looks like a large unfinished attic, because it is. The other store has always tried to give a polished vibe, clean, well lit, and continues to improve and refine it's decor and looks. This latter shop I would say has a much higher ratio of female gamers present on a given day.

There's something about making a venue look like a place a civilised human being would be at that may be helpful in reminding humans to act civilised.

Honestly I'm surprised that men play in an unfinished attic.


My first apartment was a shotgun layout, but had an unfinished attic. It was the only place there was enough room to wargame in the place. Having said THAT, even the little caveish game room at Ogre games was far superior, much less a nice game room like at the Fantasy shops or Game Nite.

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 BlackoCatto wrote:
So how do we make Yankee Candle more appealing to men I wonder?


Whats a yankee candle?

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "


 Eonfuzz wrote:


I would much rather everyone have a half ass than no ass.


"A warrior does not seek fame and honour. They come to him as he humbly follows his path"  
   
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pontiac, michigan; usa

 Argive wrote:
 BlackoCatto wrote:
So how do we make Yankee Candle more appealing to men I wonder?


Whats a yankee candle?


I'm sure there are plenty of women that think of warhammer the same way.

I just don't get the urge to get women into the hobby. You'd think the over-excitement to add them to the group and treat them extra special or different would turn them off wargaming or make others resent them for being treated differently.

In my gw the wargaming dudes got all excited but the gw manager made sure even the slightest misstep around one female newcomer wouldn't be tolerated. She basically left after some months despite massive effort to get her to stay (including massive amounts of models practically just given to her during the holidays). I can't help but wonder if people would put this much effort into people in general that enjoyed the hobby (men or women or whatever) if they wouldn't succeed much more.

I'm just worried you guys care more about getting women in the hobby rather than getting people that enjoy the game into the hobby or maintaining loyal years long fans.

The few ladies that do play in my experience are at best casual gamers or only play because their significant other or son plays the game. I think painting tends to be more popular for them. Honestly I just don't think girls care about it. Don't get me wrong it does happen it's just rare.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/06/24 04:57:24


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 BlackoCatto wrote:
So how do we make Yankee Candle more appealing to men I wonder?


Easy.

Belgian waffle and vanilla cupcake.

That's literally all you need.

My wife loves a good candle. I'd be in there often enough getting a new one. Had a chat with the lassie behind the counter, joking that we both know which candles the other will like, because I dislike the scents she likes and vice versa. She said in her experience most guys were drawn far more to sweet scents like the two above, and women were drawn far more to the fruity and fresh ones.

So I compromised and got both. I've got mine in my hobby room upstairs and herself has got hers in the living room where we both watch TV.

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Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I used to play in a sort of back-room storage wine cellar type place. Complete with stripped walls and piled bricks in the entrance way (although the actual gaming space was prettied up a bit with camo nets on the walls). Very dingey, very cramped.
I couldn't find it until a member described it as "if you think you're walking into a drug den, that's the place". I found it instantly.

Independent gaming stores work on really thin margins, the much nicer one I go to at the moment is operating at a loss.

I can definitely see how this sort of thing might be more likely to deter women. In general consumer habits show that they're more likely to be driven by aesthetics, whereas men are more prone to disregarding those and focus on function.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 09:23:08


 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

 BlackoCatto wrote:
So how do we make Yankee Candle more appealing to men I wonder?


Well, probably a different topic, but sales of scented candles to men are increasing and the companies are fairly confident of their sales angles (often marketed to men as ways to improve your chances with women...). Personally I think they are a fire hazard and threat to civilisation, but no one can see me when I decry them through all the smoke.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 flamingkillamajig wrote:


I just don't get the urge to get women into the hobby. You'd think the over-excitement to add them to the group and treat them extra special or different would turn them off wargaming or make others resent them for being treated differently.

I'm just worried you guys care more about getting women in the hobby rather than getting people that enjoy the game into the hobby or maintaining loyal years long fans.

The few ladies that do play in my experience are at best casual gamers or only play because their significant other or son plays the game. I think painting tends to be more popular for them. Honestly I just don't think girls care about it. Don't get me wrong it does happen it's just rare.


Well I would completely disagree with treating them differently, the idea is for people to be treated in an equally welcoming way. There shouldn't be a barrier for my daughter to come in and shop and game in the same way if she goes into Primark the customers are treated the same (with equal contempt, bad example). Those other retail experiences are the norm, the, for example, strange comments in a game shop are not. Clubs are a little different because they are social constructs, but there are plenty of ways to get mixed environments to be as normal as mono gender. The upshot of that is my daughter likes all my different boardgames, loves wargames especially the professional stuff (I have tried to highlight the easy money out there for women in that field), but wouldn't dream of doing anything miniature wargame related.

The exception to the special treatment of course is if you had a business reason to. If a games shop had data that having a cadre of women customers would increase the numbers of females playing and their overall customer numbers that would make sense. But GW experimented with female managers and the like and didn't see any difference in who came in and bought stuff. I think this is out of our knowledge bank, but it would be interesting to know how historically male or female shops widen their user base to include more of the opposite genders. It of course happened in stuff like pubs as well, where you had a combination of societal change in what was considered acceptable mixed with business change to accommodate women as well (cue historic grumbling about one of the toilets just being for women and they barely use it because none come in etc. etc.).

On your last point women of course did play wargames in the 19th century, but as has been somewhat discussed this was part of a culture that promoted warlike activities across Europe. See WW1 as to why this may have been a mistake and participation of both genders in wargames dropped sharply after WW1, but pretty much disappeared amongst women. Perhaps all we need is a return to justifying colonial adventures to the masses through massive government messaging on the superiority of our nation over anyone who looks different.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/24 10:11:03


 
   
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Battlefield Tourist




MN

 BlackoCatto wrote:
So how do we make Yankee Candle more appealing to men I wonder?


I like Yankee Candle.

- They are a good way to make your place smell nice.
- Plus, the ambience lighting of candles can be great too.
- Finally, the power grid in my area is a bit crap, so they double as back up heat and light sources.

What's your point?

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Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

I like the woodsy candles, like pine needle-ish, but I'm not above a nice vanilla.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
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 Flinty wrote:
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Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought





BlackoCatto wrote:So how do we make Yankee Candle more appealing to men I wonder?
Tell men that it's okay to like nice smells and buy them in candle form. That's pretty much it.


They/them

 
   
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Pleasant Valley, Iowa

For me the real aversion to candles is less their innate charms - I like warm lighting and pleasant smells - and more about that I am a clumsy dumbass who doesn't need any more avenues for inadvertent fires.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
 
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