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Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN

Oh cool*, Becky in this article helps produce Est Sans Resultants from The Wargaming Company. I think she also illustrates a ton of their painting guides too!

It was also great to see the Great Wargaming Survey referenced. It is really just an internet survey and nothing "clinical" or "Scientific" but it is the best we have. I have participated in it several times a year. However, it is mostly Historical and "hard core" focused. Not a lot of casual wargamers or sci-fi/Fantasy types would be answering that!

I especially think Historical games such as Ancients and Nappies are going to be WAY behind the curve as these genres are typically "older", white men as exemplified by Peter Cushing! The article even calls out that most Historicals are aging Boomers.

I think the key sentence from the article is this, "This is a scene that favors the grognards first, and grognards tend to be suspicious and fearful of any perceived outsiders."

I have experienced this myself as a wargamer moving to a new area many times, and I am an old, white guy! I can only imagine how nightmarish it could be for someone who is not an old, white guy!

The article puts the onus on the companies to do more to be inclusive, but that might be a bit of a misunderstanding of the market. They do not control the venues (for the most part) that these games take place in. It is up to store owners and clubs to create these "safe-spaces" more than any Wargaming Company (with the possible exception of GW).

Anyone know how Clubs and the like are handling this issue?






*= Cool, is not the correct word, but it was neat to see her called out in the industry. Their company does nice work, and she is a big part of its success!

Do you like Free Wargames?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

In the past most clubs I've been in were small and tended to rely on you finding them rather than them finding you. They'd advertise in a local store and that might be about it. Online activity might be sporadic if at all (normally one person gets the bug, does a bunch of stuff, burns out and then its left to appear dead).

I very much think clubs could help themselves with a lot more advertising and event holding and such to drum up interest.




As for historical games as I see it they are in a trap whereby they are basically a much older generation which can find it very hard to attract new blood. Right now, as you say, they are doing fine because there's a nice big boomer population supporting them. However I think they could come unstuck as their aging population base continues to age and slip out of the hobby as they become too old to play or die.

It can result in a boom-bust cycle whereby the firms do well for now, but can end up busting and then falling apart because their market suddenly dries up very fast and the huge generation gap makes it very hard to replace them.

I will say that over the last 20-30 years "geeky" hobbies have become far more mainstream. Heck video games have gone from being super geeky to so mainstream you're likely considered odd if you don't game. Warhammer is still out there as being more geeky, but its far more around now than in hte past. Heck Larping has gone from a corner of the super geeky dnd players into a huge thing that's attracting a lot of non-standard geeks to its ranks.

   
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Yeah, it's pretty weird. I'm involved in a lot of 'nerd' communities, and wargaming is the one that has remained steadfastly hard-locked into the adult white dude demographic.

For a while, I went and played a few games of Necromunda at an artist makerspace that was really close to my old work location, and the demographic there was basically the same as in my city - 50% women, all colors pretty much represented, younger, visibly queer folks.

The group I help run though, is and has been since I started exclusively younger white and asian dudes between 20-40, generally with no or young kids.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

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Longtime Dakkanaut




South New Jersey

 Easy E wrote:
Anyone know how Clubs and the like are handling this issue?


It's something that I'm going to have to think about as a club president. I was voted into the role during the pandemic which means that we haven't had in-person meetings, but that should change soon.

Even at almost-30, I'm the youngest full member, with the general age probably being closer to around 50-60. The club's focus is mostly on historical gaming, with some dabbling in non-GW scifi and fantasy. The club's stance on that has been that there are plenty of shops that are pretty much dedicated to the mainstream games. Of course, this has meant chance of growth since younger hobbyists are more likely to join through those games.

I've been behind the push to get more visibility for the club. A dedicated forum instead of Facebook group (due to security concerns), but having an Instagram page, more local signage, actually going to events.

As to making it a safer space... well, the club is pretty much the average. Old, white and male, with the attitudes that come with it. The two women we've had involved have been spouses, but were already interested in the hobby on their own initiative (one was an avid train model hobbyist). Although we've lost one with her husband with the pandemic.

I think the biggest problem to tackle will be "locker room talk" that needs to be called out more often when we're gaming.

   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I know a few women who enjoy wargaming. In my experience most usually don't see a point in competing in an abstract game for imaginary bragging rights.

I have never seen any gender-based gatekeeping in my wargaming communities. Male gamers are happy to see girls/women that play.

   
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Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Cyel wrote:
I know a few women who enjoy wargaming. In my experience most usually don't see a point in competing in an abstract game for imaginary bragging rights.

I have never seen any gender-based gatekeeping in my wargaming communities. Male gamers are happy to see girls/women that play.


Yep - exactly.

The simple answer and I am sure it is the correct answer is most woman aren't interested in playing toy soldiers. Which is too bad because toy solider is lots of fun.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Xenomancers wrote:
Cyel wrote:
I know a few women who enjoy wargaming. In my experience most usually don't see a point in competing in an abstract game for imaginary bragging rights.

I have never seen any gender-based gatekeeping in my wargaming communities. Male gamers are happy to see girls/women that play.


Yep - exactly.

The simple answer and I am sure it is the correct answer is most woman aren't interested in playing toy soldiers. Which is too bad because toy solider is lots of fun.



And yet there's no genetic/mental reason that women shouldn't like playing toy soldiers. It's perhaps something that, at young age, just isn't presented to them nor something they are encouraged to consider as a possible hobby or interest. Through no single entity or persons "fault" just through how things are. Which in turn can create older women who have no interest in such things and thus introduce the next generation of women ot things that they like and not to things that they don't.

This is perhaps the most difficult "barrier" to entry. It's not the attitude of club members; the attitude of the industry or the members or the club or a million other such things; its the actual basic upbringing and simple desire to take part in the first place.

Breaking past that is hard because you're trying to target a market group that, at the outset, isn't interested. Bending over backward to accommodate them is unlikely to work because they still won't likely be interested and changing things to appease a non-target market means your actual target market suffers (or potentially can suffer) as a result.



I think the key is to have continual marketing and outreach programs that perhaps focus on other aspects. Focusing on the painting, building, hobbying side of things, for example. You don't have to make every customer a gamer and many times you can lure them in with creative freedom; cool models. You can lure parents in with a skill building hobby that helps develop hand eye coordination; artistic skills; social interaction. Something as simply as a bi-monthly open to all commers painting session and tutorial. With a free model and such for new people; a few group paints and brushes for them to use etc... Make painting night a normal every week event, perhaps alongside gaming or separate from it.

Use posters, perhaps even post photos of different people doing stuff at the club and ensuring that they display a range of genders, ethnicities, ages etc... as suits the group.



The other thing is sustaining it. I've seen plenty of groups and such do a big splash welcome day; then do nothing for a year. You have to keep going even if you don't get anyone new for a few months. Sustained marketing works (to a degree) and has a greater chance of improving things than one-off marketing. Heck look at Kickstarter - those KS that do marketing once or twice and never again tend to fail, flounder or otherwise tick over only just; those that do constant run up marketing and heavy marketing during - that sustained and broad impact - often do far far better.

   
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Dakka Veteran



London

 Xenomancers wrote:
Cyel wrote:


I have never seen any gender-based gatekeeping in my wargaming communities. Male gamers are happy to see girls/women that play.


Yep - exactly.

The simple answer and I am sure it is the correct answer is most woman aren't interested in playing toy soldiers. Which is too bad because toy solider is lots of fun.



Just like women don't play computer games (well they do now).

And of course it is historically odd - Kriegspiel was popular in upper middle class drawing rooms with both sexes. Though as this paper notes that was possibly a reaction to Imperial attitudes and the normalisation of continuous military commitments overseas. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3787497?seq=1

Maybe that is a factor? Wargaming is a militaristic pastime and that often defaults to being of interest to men (as that is who is is marketed towards and is the primary recruiting field) in between periods of populations getting whipped up and all in line to support a war. Though the Imperial experience shows it can be marketed just as well to women.

And we are seeing a lot of shifts. Having so many women in games clubs now is very different to the 80s when the current wave of interest started to take off.

And on the gatekeeping. Yes I have seen that lots. Women getting obvious amounts of undue attention. Getting questioned more than a man (understandable, she is more of an oddity than a committed Tau player). Being treated in a different way. If you are self conscious in a new setting all of that is magnified.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another fun history piece about the original golden age of gaming... https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23337486.2019.1659626?scroll=top&needAccess=true

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/08 17:03:31


 
   
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MN

From my experience with Networking groups and churches, the simplest thing is to have a "Welcome Group" who's sole job for the day is to talk to and interact with anyone new and make them feel welcome.

If this group rotates, then the next time a new person comes back; they meet more new people until pretty soon they know at least a half dozen folks every time they show up.

Of course, you need to get them in the door first!

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Easy E wrote:
From my experience with Networking groups and churches, the simplest thing is to have a "Welcome Group" who's sole job for the day is to talk to and interact with anyone new and make them feel welcome.

If this group rotates, then the next time a new person comes back; they meet more new people until pretty soon they know at least a half dozen folks every time they show up.

Of course, you need to get them in the door first!


Very true, but a welcome group or person (depending on group size) is a very good and simple idea. Sometimes just having someone who knows its their "job/duty" to perform the welcoming and help people get settled helps a lot. It gives them a clear direction and it gives the new person a clear first port of call to talk to about new questions. Even if the group as a whole is very friendly, its easy for a new person to get overlooked or feel adrift and not quite sure what's going on or who to talk to about things. Esp if the organiser (or those who appear to organise) is already running around doing other stuff.



I think when it comes to people "acting different around women" you're not really going to remove that save by introducing more women who do stick around. Clearly any group has to weed out the extremes of negative behaviour, but there's a whole lot of grey in the middle where its harder to just go in and "change attitudes".

   
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I had a nice lady walk up and start asking me questions about the 40k game I was playing. She was a Dnd player she told me.

I gave her a nice detailed description and she said she was interested in getting involved. That wasn't the first time something like that has happened while playing 40k. So some women are interested - it's just that most aren't.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
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This article frames the question as if it's the problem and the responsibility of "wargamers" that women aren't playing. It also goes out of it's way to make a point that they're mostly white so the particular type of dogma being pushed here is obvious.

I will risk saying that there are questions to be asked about the female gamer's motivations and how their presence changes the group dynamic; imo, at best, for her the game is just a pretext to get together and hang out not the main interest. That's fine but don't get upset when power gamer Timmy who just wants to get on with the game gets annoyed when gamer-girl doesn't know the rules or just wanders off from the table.

With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.

   
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I know this sounds pretentious, but living in southern California I often forget just how pervasive and severe the racism/sexism is in a lot of this country. I read articles like this and it feels like looking back in time, except it isn't. It just makes me feel so deeply disappointed towards society.

Certainly the situation is improving, at least, and some areas do not struggle in the manner described. The adage 'you get what you pay for' comes to mind.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

 Irkjoe wrote:
With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.




What makes wargaming and miniature model hobbying different from DnD, Larping, Streaming, Video Gaming, shooting, football, wrestling, rugby, rowing, hiking, kayaking, kickboxing, judo, archery, gymnastics, swimming, running and billing other things?


   
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 Irkjoe wrote:
This article frames the question as if it's the problem and the responsibility of "wargamers" that women aren't playing. It also goes out of it's way to make a point that they're mostly white so the particular type of dogma being pushed here is obvious.
With all due respect, this sounds like what racists say to dismiss people raising concerns about racism.

I will risk saying that there are questions to be asked about the female gamer's motivations and how their presence changes the group dynamic; imo, at best, for her the game is just a pretext to get together and hang out not the main interest. That's fine but don't get upset when power gamer Timmy who just wants to get on with the game gets annoyed when gamer-girl doesn't know the rules or just wanders off from the table.
You 'risk' making a number of explicitly sexist assumptions?

With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.
If they are confronted by misogyny we don't really know.

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 Overread wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.




What makes wargaming and miniature model hobbying different from DnD, Larping, Streaming, Video Gaming, shooting, football, wrestling, rugby, rowing, hiking, kayaking, kickboxing, judo, archery, gymnastics, swimming, running and billing other things?



Aggressively testosterone-fuelled marketing designed by people who aren't aware that anyone other than twelve-year-old boys exists?

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London

 Irkjoe wrote:
With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time *snip*



You can literally use that line for any 'geeky' thing of the last 40 years. Look how many now assume women will be involved in whatever numbers compared to say the 80's. If you told me then I would walk into a board game meetup in London 30 years later and find more than half of the people there were female I would have scoffed. And if you peruse the papers linked above you see how women were involved in the Edwardian and Victorian era's where Kriegspiel and its ilk were seen as a sophisticated thing to do in your drawing room.

It is a issue not for us, assuming we can get opponents, but for companies that want to sell more. GW would love to flog toys to girls as well as boys as it grows their market. They I think go out of their way to try and employ more women because they have a ruthless desire to flog stuff to as many people as possible and hope that will assist them in their valiant sales efforts..
   
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Brainy Zoanthrope






Just some push back, relax.

@overread There's a big difference between consuming media, athletics, art, and more technical things. They aren't alike at all and I think differences in preference are a factor in male/female ratio in everything. You don't see many female engineers and physicists for the same reason you don't see female wargamers; maybe most women are interested in more practical things than spreadsheets, stats, and army lists. That's also why there seem to be many more on the hobby side of things imo.

@NinthMusketeer I don't think observable differences is any more of a sexist assumption than what you're pushing and all the lefty media articles in the world extrapolating their bad anecdotes onto every "white male" gamer to frame us all as sexist racist wargamers is evidence. You will get people doing this in literally every field and hobby, asserting that everything must be 50/50 or it's misogyny.
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Overread wrote:
 Irkjoe wrote:
With respect, maybe most women aren't that interested in this stuff and don't want to spend their free time with the genetic abyss of warhammer night.




What makes wargaming and miniature model hobbying different from DnD, Larping, Streaming, Video Gaming, shooting, football, wrestling, rugby, rowing, hiking, kayaking, kickboxing, judo, archery, gymnastics, swimming, running and billing other things?



Aggressively testosterone-fuelled marketing designed by people who aren't aware that anyone other than twelve-year-old boys exists?


I think that's looking at it from the wrong end.

I reckon most of us had these interests instilled in us when we were young, by our parents, our teachers, our friends, our community... long before the wargame marketing ever came along. Change happens slowly because to shift the bell curve of interest levels it has to be done at that level, not the marketing department of some company who's just trying to figure out the best way to make money.

The marketing departments are just going after the people most likely to buy (and that's not to say there's people outside of that scope who would buy, but you market to the centre of the bell curve, not the edges of it).

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/06/11 05:35:24


 
   
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Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Interesting how quickly the article starts talking about "white guys".

So I guess we're not just misogynists, but white supremacists also.

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Maybe the OP should have put up some kind of trigger warning because this has very quickly devolved into political rhetoric that is just paraphrasing a certain platform. I'll admit I could have phrased things better in my own post but still, it feels like some people are looking for an excuse to get offended and turn this into a rant against their perceived foes. Those straw men went up so fast they must have been ready-made.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Interesting how quickly the article starts talking about "white guys".

So I guess we're not just misogynists, but white supremacists also.
You did not read the article.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/06/09 07:03:43


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Longtime Dakkanaut




Only the people who get unhealthily rosy cheeks when talking about their FOW Panzer Lehr or think that Imperium is right. Somehow chuds are drawn to the easiest points of entry.

But yeah, women weren't interested in RPGs until they were, women weren't into video games until they were....and in all those instances you have raving Old Boys just spout nonsense online how the femoids ruin their man cave's feng shui.
Change doesn't take long once the gatekeepers get broom to the head to behave.
   
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Women aren't super interested.

We're also in a hobby about endless war against anyone who's different. Let's not pretend this doesn't attract a far, far, far higher proportion of bigots than in the general population (crossref: the thread where poeple absolutely lost their gak over there being 2 women for every 3 men in the new Stormcast line)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/06/09 07:47:28


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I like the idea of a welcome group. I tried out the local gaming group a few years ago, and while no one was actively rude, there was no attempt to engage with me so it felt rather unwelcoming. I had my pre arranged game and the guy was friendly, I tried going back the next week and he wasn’t there, so I was back to square one. I didn’t go back.

Im not shy as such, but everyone there was totally absorbed in their own little table groups making it hard to insinuate without butting in.

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Bristol (UK)

I totally agree on the welcome group.
I've been to several board game groups that clearly already had their own group, were happy playing games amongst themselves, and made no attempt to engage newcomers.
So I never really got into any of them and ultimately stopped trying.

This is more difficult for wargames though, for boardgames it's easy to include a new person in a group, you play with half a dozen people at once and can get to know several people.
Whereas with a wargame that's less easy as it's only 1v1 normally and "just turn up" doesn't really work due to the need to provide an army.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Way back at uni the game group there settled on a simple system. Whilst it was more boardgame than wargame focused, the setup was such that if you weren't playing a boardgame, or you were waiting for one to start you'd generally play Magic the Gathering with others. MTG being pretty fast "in general" compared to board games; and being very quick to setup and take apart.

It gave something to fill in the time between games or when you were waiting or if people were just seeing who turned up for the week and such.

Of course it could have its own issues and I think it worked well because we had a few good players and then a bunch of newbies and a few intermediates. So in general whilst you could end up beginner Vs pro (which was normally a forgone conclusion); you'd often get enough games against those of a similar skill. The skill spread worked well.


I think for wargames having some general short/fast games to muck around with can help. Perhaps Underworld or such. The idea being, again, its fairly easy and quick to setpu on a single table and you can get some gaming in whilst waiting for a big game to start up and such.

   
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Bristol (UK)

I agree, one of the gaming groups I was in had a copy of Star Realms, although that was normally used for people who finished games early.
We had a Facebook group and made sure to include people in pre-arranged games that way.
   
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New Jersey, State of Perfection

I always find it hilariously ironic browsing through these threads where people insist there isn't any sort of misogyny or gender issues in the community while also insisting that the reason there aren't more women is because women are somehow inherently uninterested.

Look in the fething mirrors guys, *you* are the problem. Its not that women aren't interested in playing with toy soldiers, its that women aren't interested in playing toy soldiers *with people like you*.

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Bristol (UK)

It's a nice sentiment but I don't think the data we have supports that, at all.
I actually find the idea that men and women think exactly the same to be somewhat ludicrous, it's just so clearly not the case.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

There are differences, the question is how many are the result of nature and how many are the result of nurture.


How many girls and women are not interested in Warhammer because of a fundamental difference in the structure of their mind and how they perceive the world; and how much of it is the result of how they were brought up. What they were introduced too, encouraged, discouraged, shown, presented and such.

That line is a very hard one to draw and its only now that we are starting to appreciate that some of the "nature" elements that were assumed innate within things (not just humans but animals too); are in fact the result of nurture and the environment they grow up in.





Yes there will be differences, but when I look at the world and I see men and women loving almost the same things to varying degrees, I get the idea that there is no magical natural barrier against wargames for women. Just as there's no barrier for men liking knitting.

Some of them are "artificial" barriers built up over time, some when we are super young and don't even remember being taught or learning them; some are subtle and not overtly taught and are the result of kids picking stuff up off those around us.



And as noted before, DnD and video games were both big areas that were once 100% male dominated. They were things that women would "never be interested in" and that girls weren't even presented or marketed too as things they could be interested in. Today we 100% know that both DnD and Videogames are just as interesting to girls and women as to boys and guys. Sure there are variations in what games both groups like; but even there we see plenty of guys playing the Sims and girls playing CoD etc...

   
 
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