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 Amishprn86 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Now, we may not have a lot of biolgy at school here, but from what I remember, humans aren't fungi and we don't have more then 2 sexs.

We have more than 2 sex chromosome combination, you are correct we are not orks.

yes, but having something else then XY or an XX is not having a different sex, it is being afflicted with a genetic disorder. I have a personality disorder, but that doesn't make me a different kind of human, just because it is geneticaly based.

Karol wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Now, we may not have a lot of biolgy at school here, but from what I remember, humans aren't fungi and we don't have more then 2 sexs.

We have more than 2 sex chromosome combination, you are correct we are not orks.

yes, but having something else then XY or an XX is not having a different sex, it is being afflicted with a genetic disorder. I have a personality disorder, but that doesn't make me a different kind of human, just because it is geneticaly based.

But I didn't say that, just said we have more than 2 pairs, many people dont even know this.

 Grimskul wrote:


You're a bigot, you're a bigot. Everyone gets to be called a bigot!

what is a bigot by the way, because my translator give me bigot as translation and the meaning of the word is so XIXth century, that it no way means the same in english as it does here and I have a feeling it isn't Churchils "British Invasion of German Occupied Territory".


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 Amishprn86 wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Now, we may not have a lot of biolgy at school here, but from what I remember, humans aren't fungi and we don't have more then 2 sexs.

We have more than 2 sex chromosome combination, you are correct we are not orks.

yes, but having something else then XY or an XX is not having a different sex, it is being afflicted with a genetic disorder. I have a personality disorder, but that doesn't make me a different kind of human, just because it is geneticaly based.

But I didn't say that, just said we have more than 2 pairs, many people dont even know this.

yes. we don't have more then 2, ergo we would have to have 2 or less, and we know we don't have 1. There for we can't have more then 2, and I only remember the more then 2, because on a biology lesson one type of fungi had like 1000+ .

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Olthannon wrote:
You are right, I had thought androgynous was synonymous with gender neutral. I guess Space Marines are therefore non-binary. Again though, that is the point I'm trying to make. It shouldn't matter that they were male to begin with, that seems a daft thing to hang up on in all of the 40k lore. It is in fact very much in keeping with the satirical aspect of 40k. It doesn't matter what you were, you are transformed into a genetically enhanced killing machine to combat the forces of the Imperium. It matters not from whence your genitalia hung, so long as the blood flows. Or something.

Not quite non-binary. Space Marines use male pronouns and masculine terminology, as well as following gender "rules" that place them as typically masculine - they are still "male", at least in terms of their gender identity.

I think the term you're looking for is agender, but they're not even that at present. Realistically, Space Marines *should* be asexual agender transhumans, but they're not portrayed as such.

Thank you, more than happy to be corrected on the proper vocab!

Karol wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:


You're a bigot, you're a bigot. Everyone gets to be called a bigot!

what is a bigot by the way, because my translator give me bigot as translation and the meaning of the word is so XIXth century, that it no way means the same in english as it does here and I have a feeling it isn't Churchils "British Invasion of German Occupied Territory".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Karol wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

Karol wrote:
Now, we may not have a lot of biolgy at school here, but from what I remember, humans aren't fungi and we don't have more then 2 sexs.

We have more than 2 sex chromosome combination, you are correct we are not orks.

yes, but having something else then XY or an XX is not having a different sex, it is being afflicted with a genetic disorder. I have a personality disorder, but that doesn't make me a different kind of human, just because it is geneticaly based.

But I didn't say that, just said we have more than 2 pairs, many people dont even know this.

yes. we don't have more then 2, ergo we would have to have 2 or less, and we know we don't have 1. There for we can't have more then 2, and I only remember the more then 2, because on a biology lesson one type of fungi had like 1000+ .

An unreasonable antagonistic person towards a group. AKA a prejudiced person. Normally towards groups outside their normal, example, LGTBQ+ and immigrants

Okey thanks, this makes a lot more sense ,then a person, most often a woman, who openly flounts their religious morality, while not really following them in their life or secretly opposing them. The whole thread makes a lot more sense now. thank you for the explanation.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.

Well, if nothing else, this thread has at least provided me with a new signature.

 Souleater wrote:
I do appreciate the mods keeping this topic open for discussion. And the folks have have taken the time to expand on the problem, rather than shouting down anyone that questions them.

I'm of the same opinion. I've been using Goonhammer to keep track of 40K tactics, and new armies for a couple years. I'm all cool with GH allowing opinion pieces in their site, but if mods are going to ban users that disagree with the hive mind they are trying to pass as part of the hobby I'm out, as such I have erased GH from my favorite list, and I'm planning never to return. Thought comforming through coercitive means is anathema to me.

M.


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 blood reaper wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.

What about "folx"?

I would rather be killed by sarin gas or ebola that use 'folx', 'folks', or any phrase inserting X's anywhere - literally the byproduct of cloistered academics.

LATINX!

M.

Tyel wrote:
If you want to play female marines, or trans marines, go nuts. I'm sure some people will go "nooo my fluff" - but overwhelmingly people won't care.

I however feel getting upset that established lore is reprinted is crazy.

I just think it was unnecessary for them to reprint it in that fashion. We can all clearly see that marines are all males. We don't need justification from a rulebook.

This isn't really about people playing with female marines. It's about legitimizing these dangerous fringe groups - intentionally or otherwise.

These sorts of divides ultimately lead to violence. We're dangerously close to Proud Boys lynching drag queens reading books to kids at a library. The next few years will be incredibly dangerous for those that are not cis white males.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
If you want to play female marines, or trans marines, go nuts. I'm sure some people will go "nooo my fluff" - but overwhelmingly people won't care.

I however feel getting upset that established lore is reprinted is crazy.

I just think it was unnecessary for them to reprint it in that fashion. We can all clearly see that marines are all males. We don't need justification from a rulebook.

This isn't really about people playing with female marines. It's about legitimizing these dangerous fringe groups - intentionally or otherwise.

These sorts of divides ultimately lead to violence. We're dangerously close to Proud Boys lynching drag queens reading books to kids at a library. The next few years will be incredibly dangerous for those that are not cis white males.

I have an honest question: is it permissable or acceptable in this day and age to have a faction within a fictional setting like 40k that is entirely male?

I'm not saying trans people don't face prejudice and that's obviously not a good thing, but I can't quite see how space marines being male have anything to do with it.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's not something I've ever felt particularly strongly about personally but the Spess Mehreens are in fact the face of the setting and it's off-putting to exclude over half of the population for being represented in them for such childish reasons tbh.

The face of the setting being segregated for no good reason is perfect for 40k/The Imperium. What part of "dystopia" don't you understand?

This I agree with.

I'm totally pro female Custodes though, I think that would be a nice counterpoint.

Female Custodes would've been a fantastic idea. Just a couple extra heads and you're ready to go.

Unfortunately I seen what people want with their female Marines (so big tits in armor in an all female Chapter wearing what might as well be makeup) so I'll pass until that weirdness does.

Imagine being so mentally fragile that you cant allow a fictional setting to have a male-only faction. I guess the Sisters of Battle are promoting hate and bigotry against males because it's a female faction.

Seriously though if you are so mentally unstable that a fictional universe cannot have a procedure that only works on males, you need to spend less time playing board games and more time getting yourself some help

Space Marines being all-male probably wouldn't be an issue if they weren't also the de facto face of the setting, game, franchise, and company as a whole.

They're the poster boys (literally), and that puts them under more scrutiny for issues like representation.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's not something I've ever felt particularly strongly about personally but the Spess Mehreens are in fact the face of the setting and it's off-putting to exclude over half of the population for being represented in them for such childish reasons tbh.

The face of the setting being segregated for no good reason is perfect for 40k/The Imperium. What part of "dystopia" don't you understand?

This I agree with.

I'm totally pro female Custodes though, I think that would be a nice counterpoint.

Female Custodes would've been a fantastic idea. Just a couple extra heads and you're ready to go.

Unfortunately I seen what people want with their female Marines (so big tits in armor in an all female Chapter wearing what might as well be makeup) so I'll pass until that weirdness does.

My friend is making a female Custodes army using 3D printed heads and it just looks awesome. The rest is just standard Custodes body. Imagine I might do something similar myself when I want to make a Custodes Kill Team.

I personally have put a lot of female heads on my CSM models. It's just fun to have variety.


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 catbarf wrote:
Space Marines being all-male probably wouldn't be an issue if they weren't also the de facto face of the setting, game, franchise, and company as a whole.

They're the poster boys (literally), and that puts them under more scrutiny for issues like representation.

Pretty much this.

Im not a 40K or GW games player but as an outsider who just loves the models and lore, it’s all very simple.

Existing lore/Sex/gender/science/chromosomes/trans/female SM/Male SM. It doesn’t matter. What matters and will drive any of this is GWs ability to make money or avoid losing money.

If it was provable that there is an untapped market of people out there who would buy into 40K if only GW allowed female SM then trust me, GW would have incorporated female SM ages ago to expand their market share and profits. There simply isn’t that provable group that would make it worth any effort that GW would need to put in.

Conversely there is probably more evidence that people are either neutral or against the move and its more likely that GW would lose customers, something that GW is looking to avoid.

People who want GW to change the existing fluff and include FM Space Marines, im sorry your demographic just isn’t large enough to make GW money or outweigh the losses they would make if they did include FM Space Marines.

That's not to say there isn't a market out there. So many amazing people making STLs for this. Heads, torsos etc. But as a company, its just not worth it for GW.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
I do appreciate the mods keeping this topic open for discussion. And the folks have have taken the time to expand on the problem, rather than shouting down anyone that questions them.

I'm of the same opinion. I've been using Goonhammer to keep track of 40K tactics, and new armies for a couple years. I'm all cool with GH allowing opinion pieces in their site, but if mods are going to ban users that disagree with the hive mind they are trying to pass as part of the hobby I'm out, as such I have erased GH from my favorite list, and I'm planning never to return. Thought comforming through coercitive means is anathema to me.

M.


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 blood reaper wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.

What about "folx"?

I would rather be killed by sarin gas or ebola that use 'folx', 'folks', or any phrase inserting X's anywhere - literally the byproduct of cloistered academics.

LATINX!

M.

All hispanic people I know (and I'm in CA) are liberal as all hell and hate this term. It's a bunch of middle class white people with no struggle in their lives butchering a language for their own benefit of feeling good.

How do you even pronounce it?
Latin X sounds like a mediocre rapper and Latinks doesn't even sound like its from a romance language, which is what Spanish is. It's an ugly word that actually sounds like some sort of slur.
It's just not a good term.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
I do appreciate the mods keeping this topic open for discussion. And the folks have have taken the time to expand on the problem, rather than shouting down anyone that questions them.

I'm of the same opinion. I've been using Goonhammer to keep track of 40K tactics, and new armies for a couple years. I'm all cool with GH allowing opinion pieces in their site, but if mods are going to ban users that disagree with the hive mind they are trying to pass as part of the hobby I'm out, as such I have erased GH from my favorite list, and I'm planning never to return. Thought comforming through coercitive means is anathema to me.

M.

I've been hovering over the GH site all day waiting for my comment to be approved and shown in the comment section. Just found out that it was removed by a mod. Word for word, this was my comment:

a_typical_hero wrote:
I read the article several times to understand it better, but I still cannot make sense of it.

I'm one of the people the article mentions who might see the sentence with no issue, if you are not part of the ongoing debate.

"There is no specific hormonal or biological make-up of a human male"

I understand hormonal and biological make-up of a male as "having way more testosteron than a biological female" and "born with testicles and a penis instead of breasts, ovaries and a vagina". Thus, the claim that there is no specific make-up does not make sense to me.

Could somebody please elaborate to help me understand what the fuzz is about?

I appreciated GH in the past for their analytics, but if they aren't able or willing to elaborate on their point of view when asked sincerily, I don't see any reason to keep supporting them with views.

Sunno wrote:
Im not a 40K or GW games player but as an outsider who just loves the models and lore, it’s all very simple.

Existing lore/Sex/gender/science/chromosomes/trans/female SM/Male SM. It doesn’t matter. What matters and will drive any of this is GWs ability to make money or avoid losing money.

If it was provable that there is an untapped market of people out there who would buy into 40K if only GW allowed female SM then trust me, GW would have incorporated female SM ages ago to expand their market share and profits. There simply isn’t that provable group that would make it worth any effort that GW would need to put in.

Conversely there is probably more evidence that people are either neutral or against the move and its more likely that GW would lose customers, something that GW is looking to avoid.

People who want GW to change the existing fluff and include FM Space Marines, im sorry your demographic just isn’t large enough to make GW money or outweigh the losses they would make if they did include FM Space Marines.

That's not to say there isn't a market out there. So many amazing people making STLs for this. Heads, torsos etc. But as a company, its just not worth it for GW.

I think the problem is momentum. Changing it now so late in the game would probably make a lot of Timmys angry about it and I imagine GW fears that. I personally would love to see some official female Space Marines, but at the same time I am not expecting that will happen any time soon. So I am happy to kitbash my own.

However, GW is improving on their other ranges to get to a larger demographic. The first Stormcast release was pretty much boys in gold and now they've made a lot of explicit representations in the line which I personally like. Same goes for a lot of other recent lines that are not Space Marines.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
How do you even pronounce it?
Latin X sounds like a mediocre rapper and Latinks doesn't even sound like its from a romance language, which is what Spanish is. It's an ugly word that actually sounds like some sort of slur.
It's just not a good term.

It is a poorly researched term, specially as it gives no consideration to actual inclusive language found within progressive Hispanic communities.

 insaniak wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I thought politics was banned?

Ah yes, the two genders: 'Male' and 'Political'.

The discussion is relevant to gaming, and is therefore fine so long as it stays civil and on track.

I never made any claim as to "two genders." Moderator or not, please do not put words in my mouth.

I simply asked the relevant question, is not politics banned for discussion on this board? Even with things that relate to the game, we've seen political discussions locked in the last six months.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788666.page#10808512

Makes it pretty clear that at "End of the day, this is a forum dedicated to the wargaming hobby, about collecting and playing with toy soldiers, not a place to gakpost and have flame wars about politics, plenty of other places you can do that."

Asmodios wrote:
Imagine being so mentally fragile that you cant allow a fictional setting to have a male-only faction. I guess the Sisters of Battle are promoting hate and bigotry against males because it's a female faction.

Seriously though if you are so mentally unstable that a fictional universe cannot have a procedure that only works on males, you need to spend less time playing board games and more time getting yourself some help

People concerned about that aren't mentally fragile. When you don't see yourself represented in pop culture it affects you. That's why people get so ridiculously upset about something like Ariel not being white -- they think they're losing their representation.

The issue for me has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there are male-only marines. It's reinforcing the reason for male only marines in a fictional universe, which gives purchase to the ne'er do wells to proclaim their cultural victory.

We can all see marines are male. We don't need to justify it.

 Togusa wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I thought politics was banned?

Ah yes, the two genders: 'Male' and 'Political'.

The discussion is relevant to gaming, and is therefore fine so long as it stays civil and on track.

I never made any claim as to "two genders." Moderator or not, please do not put words in my mouth.

I simply asked the relevant question, is not politics banned for discussion on this board? Even with things that relate to the game, we've seen political discussions locked in the last six months.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/788666.page#10808512

Makes it pretty clear that at "End of the day, this is a forum dedicated to the wargaming hobby, about collecting and playing with toy soldiers, not a place to gakpost and have flame wars about politics, plenty of other places you can do that."

But what if the books write it in? is that not part of the hobby talking about lore? You can make everything political honestly. Just bringing up a random topic like "Should all space marines be male?" and making it to be political on purpose then yeah I agree we dont really need that, but when a book comes out declaring they are, then are we allowed to talk about it? I dont see why not. And ESPCEIALLY when a huge community member is asking for action from the community, well you bet I want to talk about that bc what if they are spreading hate themselves? (not saying they are, just if someone would).

bleeeh

Nvm

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
Imagine being so mentally fragile that you cant allow a fictional setting to have a male-only faction. I guess the Sisters of Battle are promoting hate and bigotry against males because it's a female faction.

Seriously though if you are so mentally unstable that a fictional universe cannot have a procedure that only works on males, you need to spend less time playing board games and more time getting yourself some help

People concerned about that aren't mentally fragile. When you don't see yourself represented in pop culture it affects you. That's why people get so ridiculously upset about something like Ariel not being white -- they think they're losing their representation.

The issue for me has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not there are male-only marines. It's reinforcing the reason for male only marines in a fictional universe, which gives purchase to the ne'er do wells to proclaim their cultural victory.

We can all see marines are male. We don't need to justify it.

What you just posted is the definition of mentally fragile. In order for there to be a distinction in anything, the scope of those things needs to be limited. Take your ariel example. I would be unhinged if I was mad that ariel is not a 6'3 Italian male because I'm not "seeing myself represented" in ariel. Nothing can be all-inclusive, ariel cannot be white/African/Hispanic/brunette/blonde/redhead/male/female all at once. I could see a group being upset if they were removed from an entire fiction universe but it is completely unhinged to think you need representation in every group in any fiction. I would be mentally fragile if I was writing articles titled "Female only Sisters of Battle promotes bigotry and violence against Cis Males". In no way does having a female faction somehow constitute an attack on me, actually, it's quite the opposite. Having a defined role for any group/ character allows you to build spaces where you can highlight what makes a group special and different.

Sunno wrote:If it was provable that there is an untapped market of people out there who would buy into 40K if only GW allowed female SM then trust me, GW would have incorporated female SM ages ago to expand their market share and profits. There simply isn’t that provable group that would make it worth any effort that GW would need to put in.

GW didn't think Sisters would sell. Their stock expected to last four months ran out in two hours. I'd say any argument that starts from the premise that GW knows what will sell and what won't is on shaky ground.

 Miguelsan wrote:

 Souleater wrote:
I do appreciate the mods keeping this topic open for discussion. And the folks have have taken the time to expand on the problem, rather than shouting down anyone that questions them.

I'm of the same opinion. I've been using Goonhammer to keep track of 40K tactics, and new armies for a couple years. I'm all cool with GH allowing opinion pieces in their site, but if mods are going to ban users that disagree with the hive mind they are trying to pass as part of the hobby I'm out, as such I have erased GH from my favorite list, and I'm planning never to return. Thought comforming through coercitive means is anathema to me.

M.

Which is cool and all but there are plenty of dissenting opinions in the comments on that article. The ones that were deleted/banned were the hateful/incendiary ones. Or, I guess they could have even been ones in agreement, as they're gone now they really could have been anything. But since I do see dissenting/non Hivemind opinions in the comment section, it seems a pretty safe assumption that "thought conforming through coercive means" isn't occurring there.

They're just banning hateful bigots/trolls from their privately owned website.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
If you want to play female marines, or trans marines, go nuts. I'm sure some people will go "nooo my fluff" - but overwhelmingly people won't care.

I however feel getting upset that established lore is reprinted is crazy.

I just think it was unnecessary for them to reprint it in that fashion. We can all clearly see that marines are all males. We don't need justification from a rulebook.

This isn't really about people playing with female marines. It's about legitimizing these dangerous fringe groups - intentionally or otherwise.

These sorts of divides ultimately lead to violence. We're dangerously close to Proud Boys lynching drag queens reading books to kids at a library. The next few years will be incredibly dangerous for those that are not cis white males.

Yup, basically this. When you give the kind of person who would stove someone's face in with a brick for being different even a tiny bit of legitimization, it makes things all the more hostile. LGBTQ groups have been the targets of bigotry for a long time, and simple things like the normalization of dehumanization via language helps to reinforce this. Like I said earlier in the thread, where I grew up, "gay" used to often be used as a term for "that is stupid" or "that is dumb" etc - which given the actual terminology, and how casually it was used, reinforces an "otherness" of actual gay people.

catbarf wrote:Space Marines being all-male probably wouldn't be an issue if they weren't also the de facto face of the setting, game, franchise, and company as a whole.

They're the poster boys (literally), and that puts them under more scrutiny for issues like representation.

Yup, being the literal face of the setting, and pushed hard, and being something like half the armies played in the game is what makes it an issue.

 catbarf wrote:

Sunno wrote:If it was provable that there is an untapped market of people out there who would buy into 40K if only GW allowed female SM then trust me, GW would have incorporated female SM ages ago to expand their market share and profits. There simply isn’t that provable group that would make it worth any effort that GW would need to put in.

GW didn't think Sisters would sell. Their stock expected to last four months ran out in two hours. I'd say any argument that starts from the premise that GW knows what will sell and what won't is on shaky ground.

Source? How do we know they thought this? For all we know they are basing the sells numbers from the metal line that was $11-$13 per model without something other than a bolter.... and GW did not update or make new kits that fast for 15yrs so it was within reason to wait 10+yrs for updates (like sisters and DE did).