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read first heretic not so long ago and found myself feeling really sorry for Lorgar, previously I'd assumed (knowing that the word bearers started the rot) that he was as evil and manipulative as erebus but the book left me feeling that alot of his actions were basically good at best or understandable at worst so i thought i'd judge all the traitors based on what i know and see what everyone else thinks

Ok im gonna go through the list of primarchs and attempt to judge the traitor primarchs on their actions during the Heresy sticking mainly to what we know from existing HH black library stuff

Horus: Basically the Emperor made a bad call here, Horus was too ambitious and proud to be Warmaster, His pride led him to betray everything he'd fought for, true the Emperor had placed a huge amount of pressure on him but if he thought with anything other than his arse for a few moments that should only make him realise how much the Emperor trusted him and his abillities, angry at the council of terra for risking rebellion on newly captured worlds his sons had died for with ill informed decisions from thousands of light years away ok the big E didnt tell him what he was up to in the vaults but he didnt tell anyone else either, he felt spurned by the image the chaos gods and erebus showed him of the future (him and some of his brothers forgotten) yes that was true but only because of his treachery, all in all he was too easilly convinced that he and only he should rule mankind. In summary his ambition and pride let him believe what he secretly wanted to believe: unjustified

Fulgrim: is harder to call yes he betrayed the Emperor and joined Horus' rebellion but was wavering and may have changed course if not for the demonic posession, however by this point his legion was already beyond the brink, his insecure drive for perfection having done for them. He agreed somewhat with Horus about the Emperor abandoning them which caused him to align with him in the first place. In summary his quest for perfection and fear of failure led him to allow tampering of the geneseed leading to the corruption of his chapter, and ultimately resulting in his possesion by a demon through his guilt at the death of ferrus manus.: Unjustified

Angron: simplest answer of the lot, the Emperor strove to contain Angrons violent excesses, left the crusade to retire to terra, and following Horus offered less rules, restraint and beurocracy. : Unjustified

Konrad Curze: was due for a slap down from the Big E for his excesses and terror tactics, hated pretty much everyone including himself, probably saw a better chance of death and destruction by following Horus' rebellion: Unjustified

Lorgar: desperate to worship something and too easily influenced by Erebus and Kor Phaeron (arguably the architects for the entire Heresy) the emperor publicly shamed him and destroyed his beliefs (perhaps because his promotion of religion was contrary to the emperors vision for a secular galaxy as a method of weakening the chaos gods) causing him to crusade for "the truth" no matter how unsavory or terrible, he desired to unite mankind in faith under "true gods" left his legion in the hands of kor phaeron and erebus who undoubtedly manipulated him. Not necessarily the big bad guy I imagined him to be from the start, just horribly misguided. In Summary Lorgar wanted what was best for mankind did what he did for its benefit but ultimately should have seen the horror of chaos for what it was and turned away, was also manipulated by those he trusted most. : Justified

Mortarion: staunchly loyal to Horus, hated the beurocracts and the remembrancers the council of terror was inforcing on them, felt abandonned by the Emperor. In summary few real apparent reasons that justify treachery: Unjustified

Magnus: too proud of his own abillities, too sure of his power when dealing with the denizens of the warp, made a pact to secure the future of his legion thinking he could dodge the repo man when he came a collecting, felt slighted by the emperor at the council of nikea, his own pride in breaking the psychic barrier round the imperial palace causing a greater threat to terra than anything that has happened before or since (ie the opening of a rift into the warp right under the palace) his only redeeming quality was that he had resigned to face judgement but Russ' heavy handed approach forced his hand to save his legion. In summary Magnus' heart was basicaly in the right place even if he allowed his conceit caused him to ignore the emperors warnings that his powers would be his downfall that turned out to be all too true, his planet was attacked and his pride in ruins he took the only option left to him. : Justified

Perturabo: less sure about him than others, he hated Dorn and may have thought siding with Horus would give him a decent pop at him, plus may have felt slighted that the iron warriors recieved less credit and glory for their work than many of the other chapters? Unjustified

Alpharius and Omegon: understood the existence of chaos and knew the emperor was dedicated to its distruction, chose to bring about its demise by causing a burnout that would follow Horus' victory, ignoring that their father wouldn't want mankind to fall in the process, while initially noble i have no doubts that the corrupting influence of chaos has defiled the alpha legion and that now they are just as heretical as theur fellow traitor legions: In Summary did what they did to save the galaxy and destroy chaos at the cost of mankind Justified

well what does everyone think? I've probably missed out on loads of points that could swing the arguments either way

hmm i agree with all except konrad and lorgar. konrad was ORDERED to do what he did by the emperor and for doing so the emperor sent assassins after him constantly. lorgar willing turned no one influenced him (source tales of heresy). also by chapters you mean legions yes?

Why do people try to justify the heresy?
In the end 9 people turned on their family for power. I believe it's tragic but in the ed it was all a bit shallow.
Incidently it's a great exampl of modern tragedy... now if only i could convince my English Literature teacherto let me do it for coursework...

Ugly Green Trog wrote:

Perturabo: less sure about him than others, he hated Dorn and may have thought siding with Horus would give him a decent pop at him, plus may have felt slighted that the iron warriors recieved less credit and glory for their work than many of the other chapters? Unjustified


well what does everyone think? I've probably missed out on loads of points that could swing the arguments either way

This could be expanded upon I think. The Iron Warriors were thought as "siege experts" from the get-go according to what I've seen in various fluff accounts, this meant they were constantly shipped around to crack the toughest, meanest fortifications. There are also mentions of small squad-sized garrisons of IW left behind to keep an eye on captured and secured worlds. During the Great Crusade the Legion was always decreasing in active crusade force, this coupled with the constant trench warfare was driving them to despair.

When it was discovered that their own homeworld had revolted against Imperial rule they lost it and fell upon Olympia, killing 5 million. By the time this had happened, the Heresy was already in full swing.

This being said, can't wait for a IW Heresy book

They were all justified, because the HH books have revealed that the Emperor is nothing but another Chaos sorceror. He added absolutely nothing of benefit to mankind, scavenged technology from better civilizations than his own backward Imperium, and slaughtered entire races because... well because maybe they were nasty to mankind during the Long Night? Who cares, kill all Xenos without provocation as a standing order!

What you should really be asking is whether the loyalist Primarchs were justified in following the Emperor. I'd say most of them were, because they were ignorant of the truth and psychically manipulated by the Emperor.

Mortarion is a little deeper than that, though was mostly just blind. He loaths weakness, and hated the fact he had serve and protect those who were too weak to defend themselves. Nurgle promised him invulnerability and he eventually became like his step father, and doesn't even know it.

Joined out of hate, still unjustified.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:hmm i agree with all except konrad and lorgar. konrad was ORDERED to do what he did by the emperor and for doing so the emperor sent assassins after him constantly. lorgar willing turned no one influenced him (source tales of heresy). also by chapters you mean legions yes?

I'm pretty sure Konrad's consistent use of such 'tactics' was above and beyond normal Crusading Procedures.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:hmm i agree with all except konrad and lorgar. konrad was ORDERED to do what he did by the emperor and for doing so the emperor sent assassins after him constantly. lorgar willing turned no one influenced him (source tales of heresy). also by chapters you mean legions yes?

I have not read tales of heresy but have read first heretic which gives a much clearer insight into lorgar's psyche so i stand by my original statement, and yes meant to say legion

Just finished First Heretic and found it to be the best of the HH series so far.

Lorgars reasoning for turning is fairly well written though obvious and I like the idea that Kor Phaeron and Erebus never really had their hearts fully into BIg E's plans.

I disagree. With alot. Can't really get myself involved after the last time I got involved in a Primarch debate. It was not pretty.. Of course I really can't see you coming up to my door and throwing a land raider at me.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:hmm i agree with all except konrad and lorgar. konrad was ORDERED to do what he did by the emperor and for doing so the emperor sent assassins after him constantly. lorgar willing turned no one influenced him (source tales of heresy). also by chapters you mean legions yes?

I'm pretty sure Konrad's consistent use of such 'tactics' was above and beyond normal Crusading Procedures.

read lord of night, it paints a different picture of Konrad... hence why he became my favorite primarch. Zso Sahaal comes right out and says the emperor ordered everything Konrad did, and then to cover it up he sent assassins after Konrad constantly

Asherian Command wrote:I disagree. With alot. Can't really get myself involved after the last time I got involved in a Primarch debate. It was not pretty.. Of course I really can't see you coming up to my door and throwing a land raider at me.

...you get a free Land Raider every time you get involved in an internet argument about Primarchs?

hmm alot to digest. my thoughts...

I believe the emperor was a being of supreme power and made sons from his seed who also were beings or godlike power. He sent them to do the work he set out to do, the advancement of humanity and the great crusade, which included the uniting of humanity, recovery of past tech, the extermination of hostile enemies, and the elimination of all spiritual belief in order to starve the chaos gods.
The last of these reasons is the most important to the heresy. Obviously the emperor was aware of the gods of chaos. He knew that they presented the single greatest threat to humanity and the imperium. He was correct. Thus he sought to wage war upon them by drastically reducing their strength by eliminating all worship of them in known space. This may not have killed them outright but it would have severely weakened them. One can only speculate what he planned after that.

Thus he sent his sons out into that world to accomplish the crusade. His error was in believing his sons were as noble as they were powerful. They had weaknesses and chaos, threatened and seeing opportunity, played off of the individual flaws of each primarch. Just like regular people, there were some who were naturally more pure, like sanguinious, but many were not. In short, these were somewhat ordinary men with godlike power.
So the blame honestly lies with the emperor for his hubris. His view of his sons reflects upon himself and a belief that he is infallible due to his godlike power. He may be closer to it that anyone due to his millennia of life and knowledge, but even he was found wanting until he received a MORTAL wound from his own son, whereupon he finally did what was morally necessary.
The Chaos Gods bare the ultimate lions share of the blame as they were the true architects of the corruption of the primarchs, merely preying on weaknesses.
The blame also lies with the primarchs. They are responsible for their actions. Many of them had good intentions but the phrase 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions' is used so flippantly because it has truth within it.

I have not read the first heretic yet so I can not say much about Lorgar.

Horus- i think you have a good grasp on him there.

Magnus was guilty of pride himself, thinking he could deal with and control forces he did not understand. He even presumed to know more than the emperor on certain points. Yet I will say that Magnus had very good intentions in his use of his dealings and power. Magnus is a case where the emperor bares responsibility as he withheld information on the chaos gods from magnus while still encouraging him. The emperor tried to change this as he saw that magnus was pushing the envelope... nikea, but he was far too late as magnus had already been entrapped by tzeench. So he is responsible for his own actions, but the emperor was a bad parent...

Conrad Kurze is one that I have a hard time putting my finger on as he was cursed from the start. He had good intentions but suffered from visions of the future, especially the heresy, and violent fits/tendencies. He was made dark by his visions and how he grew up. It is almost like a mentally insane person and whether they are responsible for their actions.

I agree with you about fulgrim.

Agron was always a willing nutcase, i agree with you on him.

Alpharius and Omegon... they were indeed noble but they showed remarkably bad judgement. I cant remember why they so trusted the counsel and the choice placed before them. I can only believe that their mistake came in even considering allying with chaos forces as they must have known what that entailed, the morally degrading and soul rotting nature of that beast. In some ways they are more to blame than other primarchs as they knew what they were getting themselves into. I can only wonder if they thought they could get through it without being corrupted, which is pride. So in the end I can not really figure them out completely.

Mortarion and Perturabo I will leave until a book deals with them in more detail.