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Epistolary with Gate and someother power... Null zone? Force dome? avenger? 150

Troops:

TAC squad with melta, MM and drop pod with locator beacon: 220

5 man scout squad with camo cloaks, snipers and ML 100

Elites:

6x sterguard with heavy flamer and 5x combi-meltas 160 + drop pod with locator beacon:

Fast attack:

7x scout bikers with locator beacon, 3x grenade launchers and cluster mines 210

heavy support:

Thunderfire cannon 100 (yes... I know... but if you can find a better 100 point +/- unit then please post it )

so the total is 985... I'm still unsure about a few things... The thunderfire cannon being one of them, but also the secondary psyker power...

Before the thunderfire cannon bashing begins, let me start by saying that I know how rediculously weak it is defensively. lots of small arms fire will devastate it in short order. However, and maybe this is just because of luck (or amazing skill ), only rarely have i had a T-fire fail to get it's points back... and that was almost always because I placed it too close to other targets and a casual round of rapid fire took it apart.

My point is, that it's not as terrible as most people say (getting self-righteous much there PoPo?). But as I said in the list, if you can find me a better 100 point fit for my army please let me know.

thanks in advance

Looks like a pretty interesting list at 1000 points. You are light on troops, which I am sure you are aware of, but it could be pretty strong at 1000. I would suggest Null Zone or the Avenger. At 1000 points you shouldn't run into too many invul saves but Null Zone is never a "bad" choice.

A few things:

First of all, judging the effectiveness of a unit based on its ability to "make back its points" is flawed in a system geared around Kill Points and objectives. A Thunderfire Cannon costs 100 points and gives up 1 Kill Point. Killing 100 points worth of models in an opposing unit that costs 300 points nets you zero Kill Points and almost no tactical advantage considering that 300 point unit might be scoring where your Thunderfire Cannon cannot hold an objective. Taking a normal Tactical Squad into consideration, a Thunderfire Cannon would have to destroy 170% of its points cost in order to remove a scoring unit from the game or score a Kill Point, meaning by your theory it has to perform well beyond its cost.

That aside, the Thunderfire Cannon has earned its reputation for a reason. As an artillery piece it has a 60% chance for any shot to hit it instead of the Techmarine, and any result destroys it, meaning it can be spat on by a Gretchin and burst into flames.

If you want a better comparison, consider a Predator with Heavy Bolter sponsions. for 15 fewer points it's much more difficult to destroy and fills the same role.

Moving on to the rest of the list, the Epistolary upgrade is not worth its points in the least. Spending half-again the cost of the Librarian for the ability to use a second power in the same turn (especially when you don't even know what that second power is going to be....) is absurd. Ditch that and re-allocate the points ANYWHERE else.

You have two Drop Pods which means either your Sternguard or your Tactical Squad will be starting off the board unless you intend to deploy one of the pods empty. I honestly don't think this is a good idea...

With one of your scoring units being a tiny scout squad susceptible to flamers and close combat units, and the other arriving via Drop pod, I would highly recommend adding in a 3rd scoring unit or you risk losing both of them very early. I'd also advise against the Drop Pods in general. Not only do they force you to arrive piecemeal, they are 1 shot mobility. Once deployed the Librarians unit (whichever that is) is the only one that has any mobility at all, and extremely dangerous mobility at that. The other unit will be a sitting duck for anything fast.

I'm not sure I understand the Scout Bikers...they just seem out of place. I get that they have a Locator Beacon, but what else do they add to the list? They cannot fight well in combat, they are not terribly accurate, they don't have any Melta and they are pretty fragile in the grand scheme of things.

To be honest I'm not really sure what even makes this a "Gate List". Sure the Librarian has Gate of Infinity, but what's the point? The ability to jaunt around the board via Deep Strike? That is countered in so many ways I cannot begin to list them all, and the unit doing the Deep Striking could be easily wiped out via massed firepower. I just don't see this list working well to be honest. It has too many fragile elements and not enough hitting power. If you really want to do a "Gate List" consider running Terminators with a Cyclone Launcher and a Librarian with Gate. They have an Invulnerable Save, and the Librarian can put them in position quickly, or retreat to a safe spot if they get into trouble.

Librarian (Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, Gate of Infinity, The Avenger) - 140
6 Terminators (Cyclone Missile Launcher, Chainfist) - 275
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Meltagun, Rhino) - 210
10 Tactical Marines (Missile Launcher, Flamer, Rhino) - 205
Predator (Autcannon, Sponsion Heavy Bolters) - 85
Predator (Autcannon, Sponsion Heavy Bolters) - 85
Total 1,000

It's a bit light on Melta for my taste but it fits the description of a "Gate List".

I figure that at this point total that force dome would be best.


The drop pods are to allow for both insertion, and fall-back points for the libarian with their teleport homers. The tactical squad is supposed to drop onto an objective, and, for the most part, not move for the rest of the game (idealy).

The Epistolary, i think, is pretty well worth it. In this list it gives my sternguard a measure of protection as well as the mobility of GOI. I will try next weekend however your suggestion of a regular librarian I think..

The scout bikes are weird I'll give, but they can lay down a somewhat effective amount of small arms fire that helps the sternguard out.

against MEQ they have a 3/4*1/2*1*3=1/8th chance of getting a wound from their bolters
the grenade launchers give them a 1/2*5/6*1*3 = aprox 1/6 chance of getting a wound so not great to be sure, but I imagine that they would do much better against more lightly armored opponents

Realistically though they're there to help teleport the sternguard around.. They give my sternguard up to a 36" range on their rapid fire weapons (yes thats at absolute best I realize) but the sternguard themselves can lay down some more serious punishment.

In addition, the scouts and the thunderfire cannon (or dakka pred, as the case may be ) can sit on the other side of the map and lob some punishment onto whatever unit the scouts and sternguard were firing on to begin with.



I do see however your point about the fragility of my army and the relatively weak hitting power of the individual units. As far as hitting power goes, I believe this is somewhat mitigated by the fact that this army can very feasibly concentrate all of it's firepower on a single unit and, in many cases, destroy it.

Fragility is something that I do not know how to fix however. The terminators are twice as durable, but storm bolters are okay at best. cyclone launchers are good, and so is avenger, but It seems like the squad actually has less hitting power than my sternguard does, at least until CC ensues.

The dakka pred seems like a pretty solid choice though... even if it has less hitting power than the T-fire.

Well the main problem is your list will suffer against armies with decent psychic protection or means of countering your Gate of Infinity movements. Space Wolves for instance have Rune Priests which will make Gate fail 50% of the time, and if you get it off they have Tempest's Wrath (which I ALWAYS take) which makes Skimmers, Jump Infantry and units arriving on the board via Deep Strike take Dangerous Terrain tests. Eldar are even worse in that they will assassinate your Librarian without ever firing a shot at him. They have Runes of Warding which will make you roll your psychic test on 3d6 no matter where you are on the board, and any result of 12 or higher is Perils of the Warp. Average on 3d6 is 10.5, meaning you fail your test on average rolls, and slightly higher than average means you take an automatic wound. Having Terminator Armor and a Storm Shield would at least give you about a 45% chance to not take the wound, and he could still fit in the Drop Pod with the Sternguard. If you change nothing else, change out the Epistolary upgrade for TDA/SS.

Shadows in the Warp will give you just as many problems as Runes of Warding, and Lash of Submission could also be problematic, hauling you into assault range of units like Khorne Berzerkers, or dragging your Tactical Squad off an objective. DOA lists could be troublesome since they can land right next to you with FNP, forcing you to fire Kraken shells or do almost nothing, then get assaulted. I guess it really depends on what opponents you face regularly but there are a lot of lists out there that I would be worried about if I were you.

Who are your regular opponents and what do they usually bring to the table?

My normal opponents are An SM footslogger army, He basically fields a lot of regular termies, sternguard, and TAC squads. Also, A Tau player with a bit of gunline, and a bit of mech. Finally, a Tyranid player fielding a Flyrant, a few carnifexes, then genestealers

I really don't have very much experience playing with much else (played old CSM, old orks, old Eldar, old SW,and a few times against a pretty bad necron player) so i realize that there are things that I haven't the experience to metagame against

Yeah if you are just playing casually and not in a competitive metagame then your current list will suffice. Your opponents seem to be taking whatever models they have, which is fine if all you guys want to do is play and have fun. If you intend to get competitive though you will need to consider some different options. That said, let me ask what your opponents field that give you trouble? Perhaps I can at least help you make your list more competitive within your regular circle of opponents.

Aldarionn wrote:Yeah if you are just playing casually and not in a competitive metagame then your current list will suffice. Your opponents seem to be taking whatever models they have, which is fine if all you guys want to do is play and have fun. If you intend to get competitive though you will need to consider some different options. That said, let me ask what your opponents field that give you trouble? Perhaps I can at least help you make your list more competitive within your regular circle of opponents.

So will this list not work at all competitively?

Specific units don't trouble me too much, target priority is sometimes an issue however. For example: when my friend has his flyrant and his genestealers positioned in such a way that they demand my attention that turn, and are close together. Generally speaking, whenever my opponent has units that are well supported that nevertheless need to die is when i have trouble.

I don't think it will stand up in competition. One of your mobile units cannot deal with tanks in the slightest, and the other is extremely fragile (actually both are fragile, but thats besides the point). An truly well rounded list played by a decent player will likely table you in 2-3 turns.

The reason you are having trouble with target priority is that you have only one real killy unit in the force, and that's your Sternguard. You are requiring too much of them since they hold ALL of your reliable anti-tank/anti-MC capabilities. Other than their Combi-Meltas and special ammo you have two Missile Launchers that can punch a tank or reliably wound a Tyranid MC, and both are easily taken out by assaulting the units they are in.

You need more mobile units and more firepower across the board, and that's just the reality of it. I'm afraid you'll need to resort to some of the Space Marine staples like Assault Terminators in a Land Raider, Land Speeders, Dakka Preds or podding Dreadnougs. Either that or consider playing with the Blood Angels or Space Wolves codices. Without something killy in the list you stand to get blasted off the field.

Thunderfire will kill tau and may or may not dent a tyrannid charge, but not space marines. I would lose the psyker against tyrannids, as a shadow in the warp
(3D6 if within 12" of carnifex) is annoying.
Also, don't use both offensive and defensive units. If you are going to use bikers, drop pods, and scouts to infiltrate/deep strike, back them up. Against Tau, you can replace Thunderfire with 5 assault marines to charge his battle line. If the table is large, then your list works out, but not without very heavy manuevering.

I'll take into consideration the blood angels suggestion.

Thank you all for your time and patience

Scout snipers are good for objective camping on your own objective they are rending so MC's and you can glance on some vehicles. Consider a unit of 6-8, or upgrading it with Telion and use the Eye of Vengeance remember you can determine which units get slapped off the board. This is good against Eldar warlocks, Ork Pain boys or any unit that gives a force multipling bonus.

Scout bikes are good and cheap for 70pts, spend 100pts and you get Cluster mines, Sgt with Combi Melta, and a bike with a rapid fire grenade launcher. Turbo boost and slag the nearest enemy vehicle. Further to this, assess where the enemy needs to be funnelled onto your guns. Put the mines down in any cover there, he either takes 2D6 hits on the unit or stays in the open where you can chew it up with firepower, His choice a bit of human dilemma. especially if he has weak infantry like a IG power blob or 'gaunts.

Take 2 squads (do not combat squad) and you get another set of mines. Deploy them together for mutual support or opposite sides and encircle the Enemy, its funny how players react to an unusual tactical situation. They will never react on the battlefield as they would if they had 20mins to mull over it. This is the human element.

Bottomline don't believe all the mathammer bollocks you read here posted by alot of people, it makes no allowance for tactics, human error, bad dice rolls. If War was a formula we would have cracked it after the last 10,000 years of killing each other and we haven't due to the Human Element.

I once charged a LSS with CC scout squad into a Daemon horde (just as a distraction) and the cerberus launcher, i smashed into them. Inflicted more wounds, LD is reduced defeated then sweeping advanced they died. This was an unlikely event, i just wanted to tie down those daemons for a turn or possibly 2 and keep them from advancing directly on my objective. The unexpected result was that the Daemon player became fixated on destroying the unit even to the detriment of his mission. Even diverting a Daemon prince towards a 100pt unit, which was pretty mad the LSS managed to heavy bolter another unit before dying and the scouts went down but it was the end of turn 3 before he realised his mistake. I am sure I have made numerous mistakes like this, like forgeting an immobilised vehicle can still fire its weapons etc.

The side that wins is the one that makes the least mistakes not the one with the best statlines, otherwise there would be no point playing would there? it would be a foregone conclusion.