Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

so i think these shoul dbe in the next empire army list as its mentioned in the fluff for the Reiksguard nights that they are one of the the knightly orders that fight on foot. so this is how i think they should be.

15pts
m ws bs s t w i a
4 5 3 3 3 1 3 1

Wargear
full plate armour
Sword and shield

may be upgraded to carry a morning star and shield or a flail

the reason for the increase in ws is that i think that they would probably be the best at combat within th eorder so they chose to fight with the commonery.

What do people think the only issue i ave is with cost i think its to low , but what does dakka think?


'claw

Wasnt there a white wolf on foot unit once? Could build on that

The best knights get +1 strength not WS.

15 points is too low?
What makes them better than the 10 point great swords?
Without stubborn, these guys should cost less than great swords.

-Matt

There used to be Reiksguard guys on foot way back in the day. They were WS 4, Str 4, and if I remember correctly IN 4. They didn't have full plate, though, because no such thing existed back then.

You could look at these guys in two ways. They could be seen as an upgrade to Swordsmen, much the same as Knights pay 3 points to become Inner Knights and get +1 Str, these guys would pay a few points to get +1 Str and +1 AS. I think you could justify a 3 or 4 point cost increase on Swordsmen for that.

The other way to look at them is to compare them to Greatswords as they are now. Greatswords have an extra point of Strength and Stubborn, but they strike last, have a point less in armour, and wouldn't have the parry save of these guys. Which would probably make them even in value, so I think these guys could be worth 10 points.

kenshin620 wrote:Wasnt there a white wolf on foot unit once? Could build on that

The Storm of Chaos book and the previous Empire army book both put forward the idea of "Knightly Orders on Foot" and just said to use the Greatsword entry to represent such.

i like the idea.

it would make sense for them to have the option to fight on foot.


if you keep them at 15 points i would give them something. not Stubborn as they would just be better swordsmen.


prehaps Devestating Charge or Frenzy?

give them the same WS as the regular knights and give the option to upgrade to Inner Circle.

Grey Templar wrote:i like the idea.

it would make sense for them to have the option to fight on foot.


if you keep them at 15 points i would give them something. not Stubborn as they would just be better swordsmen.


prehaps Devestating Charge or Frenzy?

give them the same WS as the regular knights and give the option to upgrade to Inner Circle.

Why would they have devestating charge or frenzy, when you upgrade knights to the inner circle they don't get either of those?

Again, Reiksguard on foot used to exist, back in third ed, or thereabouts. They were WS 4, Str 4 and In 4. They didn't have full plate because no such thing existed back then, but you could do it now.

From there, you can see they're basically swordsmen with a point of strength and (possibly) an extra point of armour. This compares to the upgrade to inner circle knights, and that costs 3 points. You could put these guys on the field for 9 points, I think.

How about a rule that lets them use great weapons one handed ( as in with a shield ), with the usual modifiers. I think that would make them 15pts what with the better armor save and parry than greatswords. You could rationalize it by saying the years on horse back using lances has perfected their skills with large weapons. That or they are just insanely buff.

Frenzy=Knightly bravado to get stuck in regardless of it bneing tactically sound or not(a problem real knights had, Battle of Agincourt anyone?)

Devestating Charge=ferocity of their charge.



i like them being able to use GWs as single hand weapons. how about giving them a Parry save without the shield if they take Great Weapons? you might call them something else, Zwiehandars to copy the German sword of same name. those were sometimes used more like staffs then swords.

I don't know, I've read 5 of the black library books about empire - only one I haven't is Reiksguard as it's proving hard to get a hold of. I've never seen mention of reiksguard, or any other knightly order, fighting on foot. From what I could tell fluff wise, the greatswords represent this as they are received with the same respect and admiration of knights (the Carrowburg Few come to mind).

Not saying I don't like the idea, but I think greatswords almost fill that void already for a pretty decent price for what you get.

To make it worth while, maybe have them as such:

Same stat line as mounted knights - with +1 attack (representing their freed mobility from not being mounted.)
Full plate armor
Shield
Hand weapon

Special Rules:
Extreme skill - after years of honing the use of their shields while both mounted and on foot, and having access to the best quality shields available to all the empire, some even crafted by the dwarfs, they prove to be second to none in their effectiveness. In addition to the 6+ parry save, knights also receive an additional +1 to an armor save (bringing the total to 2+).
Save the Commander! - If a character in the unit would be slain by an attack caused in close combat, once per turn, the empire player may have one of the knights sacrifice themselves to prevent the character from taking the attack. The model is slain outright and no saves of any kind are allowed.
Stubborn
Immune to Psychology

No idea on how points would work out for them, I'd venture 15-18 points since at the end of the day they are still only S3 attacks (4 with upgrade)

That would be how I would interpret a "fluffy" version of knights on foot, in all the books I've read, they are hard to kill and would sacrifice themselves at the drop of a hat if it meant saving their commanders.

Grey Templar wrote:Frenzy=Knightly bravado to get stuck in regardless of it bneing tactically sound or not(a problem real knights had, Battle of Agincourt anyone?)

Devestating Charge=ferocity of their charge.

But when they're on a horse they don't get either of those things. Why would they get them when they get off the horse?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

greenbay924 wrote:I don't know, I've read 5 of the black library books about empire - only one I haven't is Reiksguard as it's proving hard to get a hold of. I've never seen mention of reiksguard, or any other knightly order, fighting on foot. From what I could tell fluff wise, the greatswords represent this as they are received with the same respect and admiration of knights (the Carrowburg Few come to mind).

As I've said twice already, they used to be in the army book. There were models and everything. They really, really existed.

To make it worth while, maybe have them as such:

So they'd have a 2+ save, an extra attack, and a bunch of special rules. Why bother having knights?

Seriously, you want Reiksguard on foot, you just take the knights as they are at present and take the horses away. You basically end up with Swordsmen, at which point you look at making them inner circle for the sake of differentiation (which makes sense considering you're talking about Reiksguard anyway), so you add a point of strength. Done.

I didn't doubt that they existed in a previous edition, I was just saying they didn't make sense based off what I've read so far.

And as far as rules go, I feel they'd need some kind of special rule, or else you end up with expensive swordsmen. The horses count for a lot when they're mounted, they do essentially get an extra attack from the mount, and also have a much higher moving rate.

Seriously, empire already leads the way with bland units, the same basic trooper equipped with a number of different weapon options. They could culminate almost all the state trooper listings into a single listing with weapon options. I'd be rather deflated if they just did the same thing again with knights and the only thing "special" about them, is better armor save and maybe +1 strength...

greenbay924 wrote:I didn't doubt that they existed in a previous edition, I was just saying they didn't make sense based off what I've read so far.

But troops get off of their horses and fight...

And as far as rules go, I feel they'd need some kind of special rule, or else you end up with expensive swordsmen. The horses count for a lot when they're mounted, they do essentially get an extra attack from the mount, and also have a much higher moving rate.

Seriously, empire already leads the way with bland units, the same basic trooper equipped with a number of different weapon options. They could culminate almost all the state trooper listings into a single listing with weapon options. I'd be rather deflated if they just did the same thing again with knights and the only thing "special" about them, is better armor save and maybe +1 strength...

Is a fair point, but if you want some really elite you're better off looking away from a unit who's stats and abilities we already know (albeit when they're mounted). Why would these guys get on horses if they're so impressive off of them?

Personally, I think the appeal of the Empire is that its troops are humans, and fairly consistant from unit to unit. They win with numbers and black powder, because they don't have the elite fighters of other armies. Giving them an elite fighting unit is making them a lot more like the rest of the armies. Within that scope, swordsmen with some extra armour and a point of strength is about right for an elite unit.

Well, I did only put about 5 minutes of thought into it, but the justification is thus:

I haven't heard of knights dismounting to fight, from what I've read, it's common to stay mounted so you have the swing and mobility advantage.

As for when they dismount and become "better" it's more to do with a knight is far more capable of jumping in front of his commander to save him on foot than his is mounted.

The shield bit I could do with out, I just wanted to come up with something to mark out their advanced martial prowess over normal troops, something WS4 cannot do. Maybe just giving them two attacks makes up for that.

I guess I'm just not thrilled with 8-10 point "elite" troops, granted I can admit a unit costing 15-18 points per model really doesn't have a place in an empire army, as it takes away their number advantage.

Though, fluff wise again, they usually are drastically outnumbered in every situation.

greenbay924 wrote:
To make it worth while, maybe have them as such:
Same stat line as mounted knights - with +1 attack (representing their freed mobility from not being mounted.)
Full plate armor
Shield
Hand weapon

Special Rules:
Extreme skill - after years of honing the use of their shields while both mounted and on foot, and having access to the best quality shields available to all the empire, some even crafted by the dwarfs, they prove to be second to none in their effectiveness. In addition to the 6+ parry save, knights also receive an additional +1 to an armor save (bringing the total to 2+).
Save the Commander! - If a character in the unit would be slain by an attack caused in close combat, once per turn, the empire player may have one of the knights sacrifice themselves to prevent the character from taking the attack. The model is slain outright and no saves of any kind are allowed.
Stubborn
Immune to Psychology

No idea on how points would work out for them, I'd venture 15-18 points since at the end of the day they are still only S3 attacks (4 with upgrade)

That would be how I would interpret a "fluffy" version of knights on foot, in all the books I've read, they are hard to kill and would sacrifice themselves at the drop of a hat if it meant saving their commanders.

Getting off the horse is a loss of mobility, not a gain. Being mounted is a huge advantage. "Gun, Germs and Steel" has an excellent account of cortez, heavy cav and the aztecs. The sun setting is the only thing that stopped the cavalry from slaughtering them.
The knightly orders with fluff to save characters already have rules. Those are the brettonians, and the non-knight gets to ride in the 2nd rank.
Want knights on foot? How about something really simple.


Great Swords: For zero points, a great sword can swap his great sword for a shield.

-Matt

greenbay924 wrote:I haven't heard of knights dismounting to fight, from what I've read, it's common to stay mounted so you have the swing and mobility advantage.

Typically, troops would dismount because their supplies were short and they could no longer feed the horses or because the terrain made it impossible to mount a charge, or because the army was taking part in a siege, where the horse would be useless.

I guess I'm just not thrilled with 8-10 point "elite" troops, granted I can admit a unit costing 15-18 points per model really doesn't have a place in an empire army, as it takes away their number advantage.

The current elite option, greatswords, are 10 points a pop.

I don't really have a problem with the Empire having a rare unit, such as elite bodyguard, that is a bit pricier, but it wouldn't be Reiksguard - because we've already seen their capabilities on horseback, they wouldn't get more attacks or better psychology when they got off the horse.