Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

To me at-least, a good or balanced unit is that which you really have to think about taking, those which are still debated about and those which can really surprise an opponent.
Examples of this would be the Basilisk, Tactical Terminators, Carnifex's and Reaver Jetbikes. You'll find many people (particularly on the internet) denouncing such units, but they are still competitive and when used properly are very effective. They are not a 'must take' unit like many in some Codices (eg. Grey Hunters, Sanguinary Priests...) but they require thinking about and are often well worth taking.

I find that the majority of the Tyranid Codex seems to be like this, many people denounce the Codex and many people denounce many of the units in it. However just because it's not a 'must take' unit or an army that you can pick up and easily win with doesn't mean that it's not the most balanced or arguably best Codex out there.

Good Writing Format/Clear to Understand? Christ No. *I'm looking at you DoM*
Good Fluff? Heck No. *I'm looking at you Trygon/Iron Warrior Lovefest...*

However, for me flawed writing is inherent within many of the 5th Edition Codices and I believe the purpose of a Codex to be the rules, not fluff, within.
The real strength of the Tyranid Codex is its balance; how many Tyranid army lists do you see that look exactly the same? Very few. There's still no definitive WAAC build for Tyranids and people still achieve great success with them using a variety of builds and units.
The general consensus is that Trygons, Tervigons and Hive Guard are great units, however the jury is still out with the likes of Carnifexes, Raveners, Harpies, Warriors, Venomthropes, Hive Tyrants, Mawlocs and many more.

It's not perfect, but what is? Yes Pryovores suck (nice models though), yes many models aren't supported and yes it's not that easy to use. But in terms of overall balance, diversity and personality, I'd argue the Tyranid Codex to be the best there is.

Ultimately to me this is a game, not a sport. To me and most(?) others it's fun first, not winning. Winning is fun, yes, but enjoyment should be the priority IMHO. I can see why people are competitive but personally at-least I wouldn't prioritize it. In terms of sheer fun, surprise and balance I'd still support the Tyranids Codex. Not only that, but it can still be very competitive and due to the wide variety of builds, very unpredictable for your opponent.
There are much fewer units in the likes of the Space Wolf, Blood Angels and Imperial Guard codices that you really need to think about taking. Variety can still be achieved with these Codices but people commonly seem to lean towards the more 'conventional' and more competitive Razorback/Parking Lot lists.

To me, due to its balance, diversity, potential for enjoyment and continued army-list variety the Tyranid Codex is the best there is.*

*Dark Eldar may be on similar lines too.


What are your thoughts? Have I been liking too many frogs? Am I trying to bring reason to the tinternet? Or is the Tyranid Codex really the best, or most balanced, Codex there is?

In that aspect I totally agree with you! I play Chaos and the options are very black and white. If I want to win I have to load up on pie plates, lash prince, plague marines, and obliterators. It seems like any other option just isn't good enough. Raptors? Possessed? All of these are overpriced and overshadowed by other armies. I decided to start Tyranids recently and the diversity and balance in the codex tickles me pink.

You make some interesting and good points. I think that the Tyranid codex may be the most balanced overall, but Power creep is still going up in the newer codex's. The tyranids have a lot of synergy units and great options on how to run them. They are not an easy win or an auto loss either.

Going by the points you made I would definitely have to agree with you. I had recently thought along similar lines when comparing it to the other codices I own.

Nicely thought out and pretty damn clear, good sir!

As a side note, you can never lick too many frogs.

Just because you normally see the same types of armies being played doesn't mean the codex doesn't offer variety. For example, I play daemons, and I have a nid army also. Personally I think the daemons are even more diverse. It's just that daemon players make competetive lists, like fatecrusher, and many people play the same type list. I could play an almost infinite variety of daemon lists.

Orks have a very diverse codex as well, but people tend to play the same 3-4 lists, so it appears that they aren't very diverse when they are. You know who has virtually no diversity? Necrons. Jeesh...one troop choice...two HQ choices...three elite types and 3 heavy support types. I hope they create some diversity with the new codex.

Just Dave wrote:To me, due to its balance, diversity, potential for enjoyment and continued army-list variety the Tyranid Codex is the best there is.

There's a lot of neat stuff in the Nid codex, but I think it's far from the best codex even given the way you describe best. Yes, there are a variety of builds you'll see, but I don't see that as an indication of the balance of the book. Here we are, nearly a year after release, and there really aren't any signature builds from the book. I think that speaks more to the inherent weakness of the book vis-a-vis the other 5th edition books than to it's balance. It's certainly not for a lack of trying.

There's a good bit of diversity in the units, but they're not distributed well through the slots. The best units are crammed into the Elites, limiting your ability to take them. I'd take lictors if I didn't have to give up zoans or hive guard to do it.

Another problem the book has is follow through. It feels very unfinished to me, like a playtest version went to the printer by mistake. You see this in the odd rule writing, broken synergies and lack of options. Why can't a prime take wings? Why does the daddy ravener tunnel preclude the baby raveners from using it? Why is a lictor's pheromone trail written so as to practically guarantee it will never get used? Why is the carnifex one of two units that can get assault grenades when it still works better as a shooter? Why did the crap pyrovore get a nice model, but there's no tervigon or tyrannofex?

Ultimately though it fails for me because the nids are supposed to be the devourer of worlds, the endless, nigh-unstoppable juggernaut. They don't play in a way the evokes a horde "without number" anymore. Instead what this codex does is turn them into an eldar-like finesse army in which everything has to work in synch - the much ballyhooed "synergy" - giving them a very different feel. It's an assault army almost completely lacking the ability to assault into cover effectively. It's an assault army in which the best unit is shooty. I don't think the swarm should be trying to outmaneuver the opposition. The swarm should be trying to overwhelm them.

You make some very good points. However I still prefer the 4th edition codex due to it keeping to the "style" of nids better than the 5th did. Tyranids are these mindless, locust like creatures, a force of nature akin to the hammer of the Emperor that is the Imperial Guard. They're faceless and innumerable, and will gladly tear your face out when they have the chance. With the addition of Characters, they ruined that feel, as the faceless horde now has a ton of faces to choose from. It wouldnt have been that hard to make these into different strains of new tyranids. In particular, the Trygon is suppose to be a mini-titan that will seriously mess up your day if it appeared (which it does, on occasion). The Carnifex is also suppose to be a common sight, the Tyranid's answer to that of the Imperial Dreadnought and Eldar Wraithlord. While indeed the codex is varied and very balanced, it lacks the feel of the 4th ed Tyranid codex for me, and this is coming from someone who's played Nids since the third edition.

Style should be a combination of balanced gameplay and fluff, where the in-game rules replicate the feel of the army. Nids now can be outnumbered easily by a guard army, the same ones who apparently ran out of ammo shooting at them and still got overwhelmed. The Genestealer army was also revived in the 4th edition, and there seems to be no clear reason why it was wiped from the game again, a rather missed moment of awesome, as the units needed are all still present in the army, but the Broodlord isnt a HQ choice anymore. The new Tyranid Prime is, in effect, a nid version of the Space Marine Commander or the nid equivallent of a Warboss. Keeping Warriors as both an HQ and other choice would have been just fine for the theme of a scuttling horde army, but again no idea why they decided to go this route. The T-Prime would have been a good "Champion" model for the Warriors, akin to how the broodlord right now is a Champion Genestealer. There's also a distinct lack of customization for the individual units. While the options are still there, the fact that the different variants of the ripper, warrior and fex got split into so many different types (Skyslashers, Shrikes and Prime, and Tyrannofex and, to a lesser extent, Tervigon) rather than just have the base type change through upgrades. It looses that "tailored to kill" feel and reinforces the "cookie cutter" feel.

Most of the ire also comes from the fact that the Carnifex has been nerfed to hell and back. Before they were the equivallent of Daemon Princes for Chaos Daemon armies, customizable for whatever you need for your army. Now the only reason to take them over the Trygon is if you wanna pop some tanks that have low AP firepower at close range.

Those are just my point of view on the nids, and largely why I rank them alongside the Chaos Codex in terms of writing. A good codex should be able to combine the fluff and rules so that what you read in the fluff is reflected in what's on the tabletop, as well as keeping to the traditions of the race as a whole. I bet a ton of marine players would cry cheese if they suddenly started using low cost, horde troops.

Honestly, I think the tyranids is the best 5th ed. codex in the hands of a good player. The fellow who runs our club is currently undefeated as of now, although, we play all-comers lists, and really don't tailor!

most of the proponents of the "Nids are good" side tend to only see the book as a set of rules. Balance and gameplay is one thing, keeping to the feel and style of the Nids is another. And any codex can be great in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, but when I play Nids I want to feel like I'm the Great Devourer, not some player who picked up a close combat, Monstrous Creature-replacing-tanks version of the Imperial Guard.

Two issues I have with the Tyranid book.

First is Characters. As has been stated, adding in characters really detracts from their appeal as a faceless force of nature. You cannot have individuals in a collective.

Second, is that it's *really* awkward as an army list. The Elites section is overcrowded not only with most of the really fun units, but most of the really important units to play competitively as well. I've found not only in my own Tyranid adventures but in playing against them, that the awkwardness of the Tyranid list makes it incredibly hard to cover all the bases you need to for an all comers list, and I have yet to *lose* to the new Tyranid book (and my first two games I tabled my opponent without having to take so much as a single armor save or a single glancing hit) and the worst I've done is a single draw. That tells me something is wrong. They still have issues with getting stuff where it needs to be and with fast opponents or armor. The book very much feels like it was released at about the end of the "alpha" stage of testing without any "Beta" period.

And in fact I have seen cookie-cutter builds, typically built around 3 Trygons, elites full of Hive Guard/Zoanthropes/Doom, Swarm Lord, and Tervigons.

Variant Army lists also tend to be ones where you just swap out one elites choice for another. While I can see the benefit of forcing players to choose between two very good units, it's not really a good tactic when you nerf one whole FoC section (the Fast Attacks) and have one or two other units completely dominate another two.

Just Dave wrote: how many Tyranid army lists do you see that look exactly the same? Very few. There's still no definitive WAAC build for Tyranids and people still achieve great success with them using a variety of builds and units.
The general consensus is that Trygons, Tervigons and Hive Guard are great units, however the jury is still out with the likes of Carnifexes, Raveners, Harpies, Warriors, Venomthropes, Hive Tyrants, Mawlocs and many more.

You make the statement, then shoot the statement down in the very next sentence. Any 'serious' list comes down to Hive Guard/Zoanthrope in every elite slot to deal with armor, with very, very strong preference going to the one of those two that can't be crippled by a guy sitting in his tinfoil-box-on-wheels-of-psychic-invincibility, Tervigons/Termagant spam and Trygons. Fill the rest to taste, argue about it on the internet for days and you have 'the' list that competes. The jury certainly is still out on Carnifexes, Raveners, Harpies, Warriors, Venomthropes and Mawlocs. It's out because the proceedings are done. The verdict is in. They either suck on their own merits, or suck in comparison to something else in the same slot or same points. Admittedly there are other options, I personally love my Ymgarl Genestealers and just can't forsake my little buddies. However I choose them in every list knowing I am sacrificing something that my army desperately needs (ranged, effective anti-armor in a mech-centric metagame) for something I just like to play with because it's fun. I accept this and still enjoy it, but I do not blind myself to the truth in an effort to convince others that the codex is anything that it is not. Specifically; high-tier competitive play capable, a complete and well supported codex without blatantly broken, ineffective rules and units and not suffering from some of the most disgustingly pathetic model support release in many years.

Play the codex, enjoy the games, paint some of the best models in the game (when/where they exist), just don't lie to yourself about them.

I’ve always been of the opinion that the Nids book is fairly decent. I’ll have to agree with Dave and his opinion that some of the backlash can probably be attributed to a lack of a definitive, end all WAAC build (this doesn’t mean there isn’t any clear favourites amongst Nid list builders).

The current perspective (and unfortunately trend) is that every 5th edition book has to have some sort of “uber unit” such as TWC, Long Fangs, Sanguinary Priests, Blood Crushers, Mephiston, Vulkan and perhaps the Nids book is the only 5th edition book that hasn’t followed this trend extensively as other 5th edition books.

Also, from what I understand the change to the Carnefex from being an auto-include unit to just a good unit also generated some hate as did the change to the army from being Monster Mash/Horde to a precision based assault army.

To finish up, I’d say that the perceived flaws of the Nid codex hasn’t stopped Nid players from tabling people.

Tabling people is fine and all but I'd rather do it with something that feels like a nid army, not a guard-proxy. Leave the Herohammering to the armies with good reason to have characters and let me have my faceless nids I say.

I enjoy seeing nids across me because they are always varied, have something new, and require a different approach in each game. With that said, I've yet to lose a game to Tyranids in the last 12 months, but I'm growing more convinced that's because the proper implementation of the Tyranid codex (see Hulksmash's living tactica on nids) hasn't been widely applied yet.

Four words: Imperial Guard 5th(not a word ) Edition Codex

I think it has more variety then the Nid codex, but thats just my opinion. I dont think I have ever played the same IG list twice, but we only have one nid play, so not much there.

Where is this hulksmashtactica of which you speak?

To me it's certainly the most diverse codex. Not your usual blood/ wolf "take this or your suck" codex but there's still a a fair bit of "take this or you suck" in tyranids.
My biggest gripe is that they basically ruined the most iconic unit in all of tyranids. the carnifex. nobody takes it anymore because of trygons and the poor carnifex is generally regarded as overpriced. That really made me sad.