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Hello everybody,

I played a game the other day. I play Chaos Daemons and I fielded two squads of Flamers of Tzeentch. My opponent had a Vendetta Gunship with a platoon of IG sort of bunched up sitting on the flank on the Gunship. I deepstriked a squad of Flamers on the other side of the Gunship and did not scatter. In my shooting phase, I targetted the platoon of IG and I laid the flamer templates down and they passed directly through the base of the Gunship (underneath the hull of the Gunship) and over several Imperial Guardsmen. My opponent argued that the Gunship is not hit because the flamer template is not arched up towards the Gunship to where the template does passes over or touches the hull of the Gunship.

So, in short, is the Gunship hit by the flamer?

And while we are at it, when shooting at the Gunship, do you measure to it's hull or it's base? If it is to the hull, do you have to actually arch your tape measure upward and touch the hull of the Gunship? Or does one trace an imaginary vertical line that outlines the hull down to the battlefield (i.e., the board that you are playing on) and you only have to measure the horizontal distance to see if you are within firing range?

Your template hit the gunship as well as his troops.

The base counts as the Vendetta/Valkyrie for all purposes including shooting, disembarking, and assaulting.

The Vendetta/Valkyrie is the only one who's base counts for shooting when it comes to vehicles, the Eldar/Dark Eldar/Space Marine/Tau skimmers that come with the bases do not use the base and instead use the model itself.

This is a point of some contession between gamers but most of the time you will read that it works out that the base is the Vendetta/Valkyrie.

I believe that the Vendetta would be hit. That is as long as you covered as much of the targeted unit as possible. You must place templates so that they cover as many models in the targeted unit as they possibly can.

I believe that the only restriction for "layers" or "heights" and templates has to do with multiple levels in ruins though I may be mistaken.

The base counts as the Vendetta/Valkyrie for all purposes including shooting, disembarking, and assaulting.

I haven't read the IG rulebook, but does it actually state this?

The Vendetta/Valkyrie is the only one who's base counts for shooting when it comes to vehicles, the Eldar/Dark Eldar/Space Marine/Tau skimmers that come with the bases do not use the base and instead use the model itself.

Under what rules can this distinction be made? Both are vehicles and both have bases...

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You must place templates so that they cover as many models in the targeted unit as they possibly can.

I did. I had about 15 hits on his IG squad as well as the Gunship.

EDIT:

How the hell is cover supposed to work with the Gunship if you use it's base, then? What part of the model needs to be hidden in order to gain cover? Where is LoS drawn from?

Main rules, page 71, Measuring Distances: "skimmer's base is effectively ignored, except when assaulting a skimmer".

Vehicles rules state that all ranges measure to/from the hull--other than its own shooting.

The FAQ only grants further exception for measuring to/from objectives.

So it would seem to miss, unless you are close enough to angle it (almost) straight up while targeting the skimmer unit. It seems to be about impossible to target a different unit and also hit Valk/Vendettas with templates.

Yes, the flamer misses. The FAQ states only for embark/disembark and contesting objectives, therefore you MUST hit the hull in order to affect the Valkyrie.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yes, the flamer misses. The FAQ states only for embark/disembark and contesting objectives, therefore you MUST hit the hull in order to affect the Valkyrie.

Although the template must definitely be placed over the hull (not its base) to affect a Valkyrie, this issue gets back to how template weapons are played in general.

The rules state that the flamer template must be placed touching the firing model's base. Now, by the RAW, that means the template should actually be touching the firing mode's base and would then have to angle up to cover ANY models at all. Obviously the more the template has to be angled, the less models will be able to be fit underneath. This actually means if the firing model is just about 1" away from the closest enemy model in the unit he's firing at, that the template would have to be angled at a very extreme angle which would actually mean LESS models will be fit underneath then if the first enemy model covered by the template is a few inches away.

I've played hundreds of games of 40K against a wide variety of opponents at tournaments and I have never, ever come across someone who has played that the template is always physically placed touching the firing model's base. Instead, the common way people play is that you place the template OVER all models with the tip of the template touching the firing model's base, but only from a 'top down' (2D) perspective.


So my personal opinion is that you should play consistently in this regard, meaning you get to place the template OVER the Valkyrie's hull with the tip of the template touching the firing model's base from a 2D perspective. If someone doesn't like this 'house rule' and wants to play with the pure RAW then that's fine, but the same criteria needs to be applied in ALL cases, even when dealing with smaller models as it will definitely have an effect on the game.

In other words, it isn't fair to selectively apply the pure RAW on a template weapon only when dealing with a model on a flight base, it needs to be done in ALL circumstances if you want to play that way.

+1 to Yakface's post. Its everything under the template. As long as the template covers the Valk and the figures you are good to go.

Same with Kir's post on targeting the base of skimmers, although the base is under the all of the skimmers that I have ever seen, played against, or owned.

Edit: Just reread Kir's post and I am confirming the base rule, I am not sure about the others though. I just know that the rule for templates roughly states that everything under the template takes a hit.

Is the Valkyrie under the template? No? Then it is not hit. Measuring the template from the base of a model is easy against infantry and tanks, etc. In this case, it is not able to literally encompass the Valkyrie and the other models due to the angles involved. If he shot at just the Valkyrie, it could be angled upwards to hit the model. Seems simple enough to me.

em_en_oh_pee wrote:Is the Valkyrie under the template? No? Then it is not hit. Measuring the template from the base of a model is easy against infantry and tanks, etc. In this case, it is not able to literally encompass the Valkyrie and the other models due to the angles involved. If he shot at just the Valkyrie, it could be angled upwards to hit the model. Seems simple enough to me.

So you play if a model is trying to use a template on a tall enemy model they're standing right by (like a Wraithlord for one example) that essentially the only model they'll be able to hit is the Wraithlord (becasue the template will have to be angled up so high to be over it)?

If so, you're the only person I've ever heard of playing the game that way!

Again, not that its wrong (its actually 'right'), but if you do play that way you've got to be consistent to always play that way in all situations.

No, because it can cover its base since it isn't a vehicle, basically ignoring the model and just using its base as the reference for the template. I do this like anyone and hold it over for a 2D reference from above. However, since with a Vendetta/Valkyrie, you shoot at the hull, you would need to be angled upwards to hit it. Otherwise, you don't.

Just how I do it, as it seems most logical.

Sanguinis wrote:The base counts as the Vendetta/Valkyrie for all purposes including shooting, disembarking, and assaulting.

No, it does not.

"A skimmer's base is effectively ignored except when assaulting a skimmer" P71

"Follow the rules in Measuring Distances in the Skimmers section in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook with the following exception: For the purposes of contesting objectives and embarking/disembarking from a Valkyrie or Vendetta" IG FAQ

While perhaps not RAW, it seems that "flyers" -skimmers with a tall base- could most easily treated as a multi-level ruin. So, if you are targeting the ground, the flyer is missed. If you target the flyer, use the 2D approach but only the flyer can be hit. RAW, it's the hull as addressed by the IG FAQ.

Homer

em_en_oh_pee wrote:No, because it can cover its base since it isn't a vehicle, basically ignoring the model and just using its base as the reference for the template. I do this like anyone and hold it over for a 2D reference from above. However, since with a Vendetta/Valkyrie, you shoot at the hull, you would need to be angled upwards to hit it. Otherwise, you don't.

Just how I do it, as it seems most logical.

That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't you just hold the template above the Valykrie model with the end of the template touching the firing model's base from a 2D perspective to see if the flamer template is over the 'hull' of the model? Why would you treat this model differently from any other model? Yes, you need to measure range to the hull instead of its base, but the process for holding the template over the model should not be performed differently than any other model in the game. Because if you do you're selectively applying the RAW to unfairly protect the Valkyrie/Vendetta from templates.

Valkyries don't have hulls because they aren't boats. In any case you'll need to reach some sort of agreement with your opponent pre-game, or at very worst, 4+ it.

As the rules are written, Yakface is correct. The template must actually touch your base, can cover but not touch friendly units and so on... but no one plays it this way. I mean no one. I too have played hundreds of games and have never encountered a template-nazi other than myself being a cock to someone who was trying to play a cheese-con at me. Warhammer rules are 'soft' and if you intend to enjoy the game you should have methods in place to resolve these situations. Here's one. If your opponent is a jerk, don't play him. Simple, Simon.

Also, it could also be that your opponent plays apocalypse and then there is no measuring needed, flyers (which that model has the base of) simply cannot be hit by templates.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Valkyries don't have hulls because they aren't boats. In any case you'll need to reach some sort of agreement with your opponent pre-game, or at very worst, 4+ it.

As the rules are written, Yakface is correct. The template must actually touch your base, can cover but not touch friendly units and so on... but no one plays it this way. I mean no one. I too have played hundreds of games and have never encountered a template-nazi other than myself being a cock to someone who was trying to play a cheese-con at me. Warhammer rules are 'soft' and if you intend to enjoy the game you should have methods in place to resolve these situations. Here's one. If your opponent is a jerk, don't play him. Simple, Simon.

In 40K all vehicles have hulls. The IG FAQ is quite precise on how to handle a Valkyrie/Vendetta: all distances per Skimmers other than embark/disembark and contesting objectives which are from the base. You must contact the hull to hit the model.

Homer

In a related note to valks/vendettas, the new FAQ states that if the model is not entirely on the board when coming on the board from reserves it is destroyed(iirc), now given that the valk is gigantic, would it thus be impossible to move 6" onto the board (in an attempt to be able to fire all weapons the turn it enters) or are we thus forced to move over 6" and denied this ability?

Homer S wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Valkyries don't have hulls because they aren't boats. In any case you'll need to reach some sort of agreement with your opponent pre-game, or at very worst, 4+ it.

As the rules are written, Yakface is correct. The template must actually touch your base, can cover but not touch friendly units and so on... but no one plays it this way. I mean no one. I too have played hundreds of games and have never encountered a template-nazi other than myself being a cock to someone who was trying to play a cheese-con at me. Warhammer rules are 'soft' and if you intend to enjoy the game you should have methods in place to resolve these situations. Here's one. If your opponent is a jerk, don't play him. Simple, Simon.

In 40K all vehicles have hulls. The IG FAQ is quite precise on how to handle a Valkyrie/Vendetta: all distances per Skimmers other than embark/disembark and contesting objectives which are from the base. You must contact the hull to hit the model.

Homer

So the question is, how do you place the template?
Because from the description, the Valk and the squad were within range of the 8.5" long template.
Are you claiming that if I model my skimmers on 9" tall flying bases, that they can't ever be hit by templates?

Saying that it doesn't make sense that a flame thrower could hit them both, since the valk is up so high, makes me question how those guys all managed to disembark.
Trying to turn a valk into a multi-story type unit is gaining a significant advantage that goes beyond what's in the rules.

If templates are lined up from the top down, then do that all the time. If they are not lined up from the top down, it's impossible to hit 7 models that deep struck, as you cannot possibly "touch" the center models base.

-Matt

Ennkay wrote:In a related note to valks/vendettas, the new FAQ states that if the model is not entirely on the board when coming on the board from reserves it is destroyed(iirc), now given that the valk is gigantic, would it thus be impossible to move 6" onto the board (in an attempt to be able to fire all weapons the turn it enters) or are we thus forced to move over 6" and denied this ability?

Correct. If your vehicle is over 6", you cannot bring it on from reserves and move at combat speed. Well, you can, but it's immediately destroyed.

(Monoliths and superheavies should be an exception as they can only move 6", but that is up to the players to sort out)

Homer S wrote:

Arctik_Firangi wrote:Valkyries don't have hulls because they aren't boats. In any case you'll need to reach some sort of agreement with your opponent pre-game, or at very worst, 4+ it.

As the rules are written, Yakface is correct. The template must actually touch your base, can cover but not touch friendly units and so on... but no one plays it this way. I mean no one. I too have played hundreds of games and have never encountered a template-nazi other than myself being a cock to someone who was trying to play a cheese-con at me. Warhammer rules are 'soft' and if you intend to enjoy the game you should have methods in place to resolve these situations. Here's one. If your opponent is a jerk, don't play him. Simple, Simon.

In 40K all vehicles have hulls. The IG FAQ is quite precise on how to handle a Valkyrie/Vendetta: all distances per Skimmers other than embark/disembark and contesting objectives which are from the base. You must contact the hull to hit the model.

Homer

I'm saying it's one way or another because the rules simply don't make it that clear. As the rules are written you must cover, not necessarily contact, the vehicle.

For distances involving vehicles you are required to measure to the hull, yes. It does not state that all vehicles have hulls. As with the rules for template weapons, it's one of those things you need to define and agree on with your opponent if you wish to completely avoid confusion. I was merely making an example of that fact.

Firing template weapons is one of the best examples of employing common sense in order to avoid confusion because almost no one plays it to the letter.