The continuing story of Julian Assange...Wikileaks.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Peter Wiggin**

Is it just me, or is it very very convenient that an international arrest warrant was issued roughly the same time as a major Wikileaks release?

Here is a comment from CNN Sr legal analyst Jeffery Toobin [Assange can't "rub the United States' nose in committing illegal acts and get away with it" and he can't elude attention because he's become a "huge celebrity."]

So ummmm, wait. Its ok for the government to do illegal gak, but its horribly wrong to call attention to it? I don't think he's a hero or anything, but the world and (more importantly in my mind) the citizens of America NEED to know what our government is doing....both good and bad so that we can have a form of government more representative of the will of the people. Keeping secrets and running clandestine ops isn't where I want my taxes going.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/12/01/sweden.interpol.assange/index.html?hpt=T2

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"U.S. Rep. Peter King, R-New York, said Assange should be prosecuted for espionage. He also said that the United States should classify WikiLeaks as a terrorist group so that "we can freeze their assets." And he called Assange an enemy combatant."

**Slarg232**

Commandment #11, the most holiest of though Commandments: Thou Shalt Not Get Caught.

**Crablezworth**

I love how fox news is calling for whoever leaked the info to be executed as a traitor. They compare embarrassing the state department with leaking nuclear launch codes. I think it’s hilarious. I don’t think Julian Assange is a hero but I do respect his massive balls. Truth is something someone is trying to hide, everything else is just advertising.

**Ahtman**

agroszkiewicz wrote:Its ok for the government to do illegal gak, but its horribly wrong to call attention to it?

Why is it when I read that I thought of this quote?

Dogma wrote:I think that there may be a pretty high correlation between bad judgment making abilities, and the desire to expose government secrets.

Also, what part of the privileged, personal memos from diplomats revealed any illegal activity?

**Kilkrazy**

The collection of information on foreign diplomats at the UN, ordered by Hilary Clinton.

**Ahtman**

Kilkrazy wrote:The collection of information on foreign diplomats at the UN, ordered by Hilary Clinton.

Wow, I'm surprised to see you jump on the bandwagon so quickly without all the evidence. There is nothing specifically illegal that has been brought to light, or to quote the article, "as suggested by a diplomatic cable published by WikiLeaks". Suggested doesn't mean that illegal information gathering took place. I can't think of a single country who's diplomats don't keep track of who they talk to and what was said. The appearance of impropriety is not the same thing as being improper. Ignoring the difference is Fox News' bread and butter.

**Peter Wiggin**

I will be the first to admit that I haven't read all of the documents on wikileaks (haha, good luck), but the very fact that folks are screaming for this guy's head on a plate is what disturbs me. Accusing him of treason, being an enemy combatant, those sorts of things....ugh. Plus the timing on his international arrest warrant is really really fishy.

**Kilkrazy**

Ahtman wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The collection of information on foreign diplomats at the UN, ordered by Hilary Clinton.

Wow, I'm surprised to see you jump on the bandwagon so quickly without all the evidence. There is nothing specifically illegal that has been brought to light, or to quote the article, "as suggested by a diplomatic cable published by WikiLeaks". Suggested doesn't mean that illegal information gathering took place. I can't think of a single country who's diplomats don't keep track of who they talk to and what was said. The appearance of impropriety is not the same thing as being improper. Ignoring the difference is Fox News' bread and butter.

I'm going by what Radio 4 have reported.

I don't care about the details.

**Ahtman**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Ahtman wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:The collection of information on foreign diplomats at the UN, ordered by Hilary Clinton.

Wow, I'm surprised to see you jump on the bandwagon so quickly without all the evidence. There is nothing specifically illegal that has been brought to light, or to quote the article, "as suggested by a diplomatic cable published by WikiLeaks". Suggested doesn't mean that illegal information gathering took place. I can't think of a single country who's diplomats don't keep track of who they talk to and what was said. The appearance of impropriety is not the same thing as being improper. Ignoring the difference is Fox News' bread and butter.

I'm going by what Radio 4 have reported.

I don't care about the details.

OK, who hacked KK's account?

**Peter Wiggin**

"WikiLeaks had moved its site to Amazon's servers on Sunday, after it was the target of a denial-of-service attack from a hacker on its old servers last week."

Yes, because I am sure that it was a hacker that attacked the site and not a government paid cyber security specialist.

**Ahtman**

agroszkiewicz wrote:Yes, because I am sure that it was a hacker that attacked the site and not a government paid cyber security specialist.

Yes, because no hacker would ever want to go after a high profile target. I think it's time to put our tinfoil hats on lest the government read our thoughts while we discuss this matter.

**Stormrider**

agroszkiewicz wrote:I will be the first to admit that I haven't read all of the documents on wikileaks (haha, good luck), but the very fact that folks are screaming for this guy's head on a plate is what disturbs me. Accusing him of treason, being an enemy combatant, those sorts of things....ugh. Plus the timing on his international arrest warrant is really really fishy.

Interpol wants him on rape charges in Sweden, I think Interpol is the least of his worries. His blabbing about the Russian Government and their ties to the Russian mafia are going to get him killed.

Side note: Fox News isn't advocating him being executed or brought on on anything. That was a congressman (Peter King NY 3rd). In fact 3 of their employees last night (Judge Andrew Napolitano, Alan Colmes and John Stossel) said he should be left alone. Asange hasn't done anything wrong technically, Pvt.1st Class Manning (the leaker) is probably going to spend the rest of his life in jail.

**Peter Wiggin**

Stormrider wrote: Pvt.1st Class Manning (the leaker) is probably going to spend the rest of his life in jail.

I support this, and I might even support trying him for espionage. Sucks, but you gotta do the time if you commit the crime.

The ongoing thing with Assange and the charges from Sweden just seems too well timed....or maybe his release of documents is an effort to keep from being tried on rape charges. Who knows? Its good knews anyway....better than the latest tragedy in Haiti, or another lolcat.

**Kanluwen**

Crablezworth wrote:I love how fox news is calling for whoever leaked the info to be executed as a traitor. They compare embarrassing the state department with leaking nuclear launch codes. I think it’s hilarious. I don’t think Julian Assange is a hero but I do respect his massive balls. Truth is something someone is trying to hide, everything else is just advertising.

Because the suspected person who leaked the info to WikiLeaks in the first place didn't just leak diplomatic cables.

The suspect, who also leaked classified Pentagon documents, and in the process of illegally obtaining the diplomatic cables(which he didn't have access to) willingly compromised the security of hardened military networks. Also bear in mind that said suspect is a serving member of the US military.
That drastically changes the situation.

agroszkiewicz wrote:I will be the first to admit that I haven't read all of the documents on wikileaks (haha, good luck), but the very fact that folks are screaming for this guy's head on a plate is what disturbs me. Accusing him of treason, being an enemy combatant, those sorts of things....ugh.

Well, releasing details about US troop movements and the like kind of is y'know...treason. And Assagne has done that.

Plus the timing on his international arrest warrant is really really fishy.

No, it's really not?
Switzerland has been saying for a few months now that they're investigating him about these rape allegations. They have said for awhile that they were trying to decide whether the claims had merit.
Bear in mind, this was even before Assagne started mouthing off about having US diplomatic cables.

**DiscoVader**

Wikileaks makes me feel conflicted. On the one hand I'm all for a more open and honest government, and I feel like they should be willing to reveal things to the people they govern... but at the same time, I worry that they won't know when to stop and will eventually release some kind of information that will actually lead to the country being harmed in some way, either via strained relations with other foreign powers or via actual physical attacks on soldiers or civilians. I respect what they're trying to do, it's noble to try and get the truth out to the people, but they're playing a very, very dangerous game, and eventually something is going to go horribly wrong and hurt everyone involved... which includes us as a whole nation.

**Peter Wiggin**

Kanluwen wrote:

agroszkiewicz wrote:I will be the first to admit that I haven't read all of the documents on wikileaks (haha, good luck), but the very fact that folks are screaming for this guy's head on a plate is what disturbs me. Accusing him of treason, being an enemy combatant, those sorts of things....ugh.

Well, releasing details about US troop movements and the like kind of is y'know...treason. And Assagne has done that.

I haven't been able to find any documents on US troop movements. I've looked and just haven't seen anything that detailed current troop positions, supply lines, dropsites, etc. Quoted from the wikileaks front page.

Cablegate: 250,000 US Embassy Diplomatic Cables
2010-11-28

On Sunday 28th Novembre 2010, Wikileaks began publishing 251,287 leaked United States embassy cables, the largest set of confidential documents ever to be released into the public domain. The documents will give people around the world an unprecedented insight into the US Government's foreign activities.
War Diary: Iraq War Logs
2010-10-22

The 391,832 reports ('The Iraq War Logs'), document the war and occupation in Iraq, from 1st January 2004 to 31st December 2009 (except for the months of May 2004 and March 2009) as told by soldiers in the United States Army. Each is a 'SIGACT' or Significant Action in the war. They detail events as seen and heard by the US military troops on the ground in Iraq and are the first real glimpse into the secret history of the war that the United States government has been privy to throughout.
War Diary: Afghanistan War Logs
2010-07-25

From here, you can browse through all of the documents that have been released, organized by type, category, date, number of casualties, and many other properties. From any document page, clicking on the green underlined text will open a popup that links to other documents that contain those phrases, making it possible to see important search terms and connections that you might not otherwise notice.
Video: Collateral Murder
2010-04-05

WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff. Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-sight, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.

**Ahtman**

Assagne can't commit treason as he isn't a US citizen. Espionage maybe, but even that is stretching it. As long as he didn't tell someone to obtain them illegally and just received them then it isn't even necessarily that. Research the New York Times and the Pentagon Papers.

**Kanluwen**

Ahtman wrote:Assagne can't commit treason as he isn't a US citizen. Espionage maybe, but even that is stretching it. As long as he didn't tell someone to obtain them illegally and just received them then it isn't even necessarily that. Research the New York Times and the Pentagon Papers.

Yeah, I know he can't commit treason.

However, the soldier who stole the documents did commit treason.

**Peter Wiggin**

Kanluwen wrote:
Ahtman wrote:Assagne can't commit treason as he isn't a US citizen. Espionage maybe, but even that is stretching it. As long as he didn't tell someone to obtain them illegally and just received them then it isn't even necessarily that. Research the New York Times and the Pentagon Papers.

Yeah, I know he can't commit treason.

However, the soldier who stole the documents did commit treason.

Are you positive that this fits the legal definition of treason? Also, is this from the perspective of a military or civilian court? None of the information was specifically leaked to foreign nationals or to an arm of another government. Not saying he isn't guilty, just that its a VERY serious allegation.

I support the prosecution of anyone that has committed a crime, but not by a military tribunal in what is clearly NOT a combat situation.

**Ahtman**

If you are soldier and steal classified documents from a military facility you are not going to be tried as a civilian.

**Kanluwen**

If Assagne isn't a US citizen, then he's a foreign national.

And uh, guy...

The man who leaked the documents to WikiLeaks was in Iraq.

Pretty sure that's clearly NOT him being on vacation.
He was on a combat deployment. Thus, combat situation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:If you are soldier and steal classified documents from a military facility you are not going to be tried as a civilian.

Especially when you're actually on deployment.

And this wasn't really a case of "Oops, I accidentally left some unsecured files on my desk".

The soldier in question had no reason, whatsoever, to be viewing diplomatic cables.
He had to willfully compromise the security on the diplomatic communication network to obtain them.

**Peter Wiggin**

[

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:If Assagne isn't a US citizen, then he's a foreign national.

And uh, guy...

The man who leaked the documents to WikiLeaks was in Iraq.

Pretty sure that's clearly NOT him being on vacation.
He was on a combat deployment. Thus, combat situation.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:If you are soldier and steal classified documents from a military facility you are not going to be tried as a civilian.

Especially when you're actually on deployment.

And this wasn't really a case of "Oops, I accidentally left some unsecured files on my desk".

The soldier in question had no reason, whatsoever, to be viewing diplomatic cables.
He had to willfully compromise the security on the diplomatic communication network to obtain them.

Post edited. I agree....the Pvt should be tried under military code since he was physically in Iraq, by definition this is a combat area. As for Assange....I'm still not really seeing what he's done to violate US law. I'm no lawyer though, so y'know.

Unless of course he coerced the Pvt into getting those files. Then he's guilty of something...not sure what.

**Crablezworth**

Stormrider wrote:
agroszkiewicz wrote:I will be the first to admit that I haven't read all of the documents on wikileaks (haha, good luck), but the very fact that folks are screaming for this guy's head on a plate is what disturbs me. Accusing him of treason, being an enemy combatant, those sorts of things....ugh. Plus the timing on his international arrest warrant is really really fishy.

Interpol wants him on rape charges in Sweden, I think Interpol is the least of his worries. His blabbing about the Russian Government and their ties to the Russian mafia are going to get him killed.

Side note: Fox News isn't advocating him being executed or brought on on anything. That was a congressman (Peter King NY 3rd). In fact 3 of their employees last night (Judge Andrew Napolitano, Alan Colmes and John Stossel) said he should be left alone. Asange hasn't done anything wrong technically, Pvt.1st Class Manning (the leaker) is probably going to spend the rest of his life in jail.

O'reilly was calling for his execution, that's fox news

**Kanluwen**

Assange isn't on trial in the US, or even at this time wanted by the US. I'm sure they could get him for receiving stolen property or classified documents, etc. But that doesn't matter because as I said...he's not wanted by the US.

He's wanted by Switzerland for a series of alleged rapes.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crablezworth wrote:
Stormrider wrote:
agroszkiewicz wrote:I will be the first to admit that I haven't read all of the documents on wikileaks (haha, good luck), but the very fact that folks are screaming for this guy's head on a plate is what disturbs me. Accusing him of treason, being an enemy combatant, those sorts of things....ugh. Plus the timing on his international arrest warrant is really really fishy.

Interpol wants him on rape charges in Sweden, I think Interpol is the least of his worries. His blabbing about the Russian Government and their ties to the Russian mafia are going to get him killed.

Side note: Fox News isn't advocating him being executed or brought on on anything. That was a congressman (Peter King NY 3rd). In fact 3 of their employees last night (Judge Andrew Napolitano, Alan Colmes and John Stossel) said he should be left alone. Asange hasn't done anything wrong technically, Pvt.1st Class Manning (the leaker) is probably going to spend the rest of his life in jail.

O'reilly was calling for his execution, that's fox news

Execution of Assange or the private leaking documents to Assange?

Because there's a difference there.

**sebster**

I think it's fair to say Assange is guilty of pretty poor judgement, and his own reasons for releasing documents are really very odd, and don't really convince me he's the best guy to decide what really needs to be released to the public.

But that's wholly different to calling people traitors or guilty of treason. I think that kind of talk is kind of dangerous to be honest, and I've never really understood why people are so hostile to the release of secrets.

That said, the guy may or may not be guilty of rape, that's for the courts to decide.

**Peter Wiggin**

sebster wrote: don't really convince me he's the best guy to decide what really needs to be released to the public.

Wait, so you are saying you do support the suppression of information? Think really carefully about that.

**Ahtman**

agroszkiewicz wrote:
sebster wrote: don't really convince me he's the best guy to decide what really needs to be released to the public.

Wait, so you are saying you do support the suppression of information? Think really carefully about that.

You are setting up a false dichotomy here. Think really carefully about that.

**Kilkrazy**

He has pissed off the USA. That's enough.

The calls for him to be hunted down like Bin Laden (who hasn't been hunted down, BTW) are just crowd pleasers for the Tea Particrats.

Really though, those sorts of hysterical calls for condign punishment are worse than the original leaks.

Everyone with a bit of sophistication and knowledge is fully aware that these sort of messages are going around all the time. There has been nothing shocking in them -- everything I have seen has been a pithy, accurate assessment.

It's far more embarrassing to see the shrieks of horror from Joe Lieberman and the like.

**sebster**

agroszkiewicz wrote:Wait, so you are saying you do support the suppression of information? Think really carefully about that.

No, I'm not, and I'd go so far as to say that there is no way you could have sensibly read that from my post.

I am saying that taking leaks and releasing them to the general public requires a level of decision making as to where the public good really lies. Releasing diplomatic memos to the US from Middle Eastern nations who are concerned about Iran has achieved nothing but make those nations more wary about dealing with the US over Iran.

While many of the leaks have been for the public good, some have been damaging, and most utterly trivial.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:He has pissed off the USA. That's enough.

The calls for him to be hunted down like Bin Laden (who hasn't been hunted down, BTW) are just crowd pleasers for the Tea Particrats.

Really though, those sorts of hysterical calls for condign punishment are worse than the original leaks.

Yeah, the thing that's been causing me to drift back to Assange's side in the last few days has been the ludicrous reactions from various politicians. It kind of reminds me how much some people worship at the temple of state power, and how brave it can be to break that down by releasing secrets.

Then I remember some of the crap he's actually leaked, and I kind of end up somewhere in the middle.

**Peter Wiggin**

sebster wrote:
Yeah, the thing that's been causing me to drift back to Assange's side in the last few days has been the ludicrous reactions from various politicians. It kind of reminds me how much some people worship at the temple of state power, and how brave it can be to break that down by releasing secrets.

Then I remember some of the crap he's actually leaked, and I kind of end up somewhere in the middle.

This sums up my stance rather well.