Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm a bit confused.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/a/achilles.pdf

#1. The Land Raider Achilles is not in Codex.

#2. I thought that non-codex units (Forgeworld units) could only be played with an opponent's permission and definitely are not allowed in tournaments?

#3. The Land Raider Achilles needs to NEVER be fielded in an actual game in my opinion. It is AV14, and is immune to melta, lance, and gives -1 to any roll on the damage table. That means it cannot be destroyed by some armies. That's even BEFORE we get to its ridiculous array of weaponry. It seems pretty clear that its meant to be fielded on an apocalypse table - along with units like the Caestus Assault Ram. Those don't BELONG on a regular table. And if they are fielded on the table, I would expect to have a couple of Stompas facing off against them. Doesn't matter if they ignore melta and lance, I get to pick them up with my lifta-droppa and fling them across the table for automatic penetrating hits.


And in the last two days, both in person and on Dakka I've had people tell me that the Achilles and the Caestus Assault Ram are legal to field in an army list. Is there something I'm missing?

2) Technically not true - IA state they do NOT need opponents permission.

However "i want to play you" requires opponents permission - everything within the game does.

If a tournament allows the use of non-codex units then it would be possible to use them.

3) Yes, its experimental rules are fairly stupid.

I asked a similar question a few months ago and here is my understanding of it.

1. They're not in the codex's but they are in the imperial armour book. Forgeworld is owned by gamesworkship os technically they are GW models.

2. It's really up to your opponent on whether or not you are allowed to field them. But like I said, they are technically GW models. I don't know about tournaments because I've never played in one.

3. Yeah, there are quite a few forgeworld models that seem to be intended for Apocolpyse games. But again, it all depends on how friendly your opponents are.

That's how I had it understood. If I'm wrong someone feel free to correct me

I wouldn't mind seeing FW stuff in friendly games, but I'd want to know in advance whether they are allowed into any tournament I played in.

using some of the scenerios available in GW books you can field appocalypse formations along side a standard FOC, there is even a scenerio for a superheavy vs standard army. you always ahve the option of choosing such games before hand or rolling randomly in the book for which scenerio. always fun to try new games.

well that being said, Dash I am 100% in agreement with you. I'm a fan or warhammer 40k and the CODEXES that make it up, not the supplimental books that until recently another company made ... ...

I personaly won't play against IA unless my opponent gives me advance notice, alot of the stuff I have no idea what it does ...
Huron for example ... orbital bombardment 2 ... painful
wouldve liked to have known that beforehand ... I thought he was using ChaosMarines

augustus5 wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing FW stuff in friendly games, but I'd want to know in advance whether they are allowed into any tournament I played in.

Thats the thing. The Achilles counts as a listed Codex choice, via the rules for it.

however the IA books aren't allowed for most tournaments ... not to mention the rules are still experimental

Che-Vito wrote:

augustus5 wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing FW stuff in friendly games, but I'd want to know in advance whether they are allowed into any tournament I played in.

Thats the thing. The Achilles counts as a listed Codex choice, via the rules for it.

So? Imperial Armor Update 2006 said the same thing for most of its units.

Generally tournaments specify what books units and army lists may be drawn from. (this is what stops people using official army lists that are out-of-date like LatD, etc)

Dashofpepper wrote:And in the last two days, both in person and on Dakka I've had people tell me that the Achilles and the Caestus Assault Ram are legal to field in an army list. Is there something I'm missing?

They are legal to field. However, legality is a tricky thing, since you and your opponent decide what's legal in every game prior to starting it. This is similar to agreeing to a point level. If you want 2k and your opponent wants 1.5k and neither of you are willing to budge, well you won't be able to play. Same thing here, if your opponent wants to allow IA units and you don't, well you won't be able to play.

Legality in a tournament context is different, since it is decided by the TO.

edit: For how I would play it, I allow IA stuff to be used. I just consider it more of a challenge. The achilles seems strong on paper, but unless I run into it and get dominated over and over with no answer available to me, then I'll just keep trying to find a way to beat it.

Yeah, I'm really not seeing this as an issue.

If it's a tournament game, or other official event, the rules for that event should specify which books are allowed for use.

If it's a friendly game, it's entirely down to what you and your opponent want to do.


And ultimately, if you don't discuss it before the game, don't compare army lists before the game, and your opponent springs something on you that you are unfamiliar with... if it's only a friendly game, it's not really the end of the world.

Well, as long as there is a new Dark Eldar Ravager type model with an improved flickerfield (3+), AV13/13/10 non-open topped with STR10 48" ordinance shot lances that get +2 to the penetration roll, and come with 3 apiece for 150 points, I'm game for playing against stuff like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess the next question then is this:

To my knowledge, I've never been to a tournament or a Grand Tournament that allows the use of Imperial Armour books. Does anyone know anything I don't? Does Adepticon allow their use? Or only certain superheavy options?

Never seen a tourney allow them myself, just know they normally have a list where x books apply

Dashofpepper wrote:Well, as long as there is a new Dark Eldar Ravager type model with an improved flickerfield (3+), AV13/13/10 non-open topped with STR10 48" ordinance shot lances that get +2 to the penetration roll, and come with 3 apiece for 150 points, I'm game for playing against stuff like this.

Heh Somehow I don't think hyperbole is helpful. I'd be interested in seeing the reaction of your opponent if you were to present this type of request.

Dashofpepper wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess the next question then is this:

To my knowledge, I've never been to a tournament or a Grand Tournament that allows the use of Imperial Armour books. Does anyone know anything I don't? Does Adepticon allow their use? Or only certain superheavy options?

Astronomi-con allows IA units. No superheavies, but IA is permitted.

I agree, the Achilles is pretty fubar. However, FW does do some interesting rules that aren't broken or OP, but just flavorful. Their DKoK list is entertaining, as is their Renegade Guard list. The Red Scorpions list is equally interesting, I believe there's a rule if you take a certain special character you may upgrade any sergeant to an Apothecary for something like 25pts. Their fun and they have nice models.

Dashofpepper wrote:To my knowledge, I've never been to a tournament or a Grand Tournament that allows the use of Imperial Armour books. Does anyone know anything I don't? Does Adepticon allow their use? Or only certain superheavy options?

GT's generally steer away from them. It used to be fairly common for other tournaments to allow IA rules, allow they usually excluded Flyers and Super-Heavies.

I think units like this are the reason most tourneys don't allow forge world and why adepticon moved to limit the team tourney to one ia model.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:however the IA books aren't allowed for most tournaments ... not to mention the rules are still experimental

The Archilles is not in experimental stages or its rules,


i would have to disagree with the ruling if you can or cant field this type of Land Raider in either a Tournament or Regular game, it simply states that its a Heavy Support in the follwoing codex. In appocalypse games there isnt a Force ORG, with the way that GW and ForgeWorld written the rules and how its states, we can have this Land Raider and be fielded in a Touranment. I do agree with Dash that some Armies like "Dark Eldar" would not be able to handle it. Another thing is that if you can have FAQ and updates in rules, than you should be able to have extra stuff for all the codex as well.We all seen this before with Blood Angles in White Dwarf and with the Eldar Night Spinner. Honestly we all know how fast GW moves in making a new codex or modles.

Your "ruling" is still incorrect whereever tournaments require units taken from a codex, as IA 10 is NOT a codex.

I won't ever play in a game against this disaster. I don't care if you think I'm being ridiculous or rude. I don't care what people may say in rebuttal in regards to my statements here. There are certain things I wont do in 40k, out of respect for the game and my opponents, and I feel I deserve a little bit of the same respect back. That is how strongly I feel about the abomination that is the Achilles pattern.

And in the last two days, both in person and on Dakka I've had people tell me that the Achilles and the Caestus Assault Ram are legal to field in an army list. Is there something I'm missing?

Hey Dash the Caestus is in its experimental so it can't be fielded in a tournament, but in March we will never know.

Unless a tournament allows ANY IA rules, including experimental rules, of course.

I would be pretty torqued if a TO let in IA units. The game balance is bad enough without throwing in these kind of wild cards.

heres the problem, some of ya'lls are confused with what are taking to establish here. Many of the IA's stuff can only be played game which allows them.

It the Archilles that we are trying to establish if you can or cant field it in a tournament.

I agree that there are many units in IA book, shouldn't be fielded in a tournament.

But on the bottom of the page on the Archilles rules, stats that its a heavy support in the following codex

Which is how many entries are worded. Otherwise you wouldn't know how to field it when IA units are allowed. Doesn't change the fact that most tournaments don't allow IA units.

Dashofpepper wrote:To my knowledge, I've never been to a tournament or a Grand Tournament that allows the use of Imperial Armour books. Does anyone know anything I don't? Does Adepticon allow their use? Or only certain superheavy options?

GW's Battlefields events do.

Saying that something is a heavy support in the following codex does not mean it counts as being part of the codex.

It means that if you want to use it in a regular game, where both players have agreed to use IA units, it takes up a HS slot. That is all.

The Adepticon Gladiator tournament would be another example of a tournament that (in the past, not sure about this year) allows IA units and superheavies.

lambadomy wrote:Saying that something is a heavy support in the following codex does not mean it counts as being part of the codex.

It means that if you want to use it in a regular game, where both players have agreed to use IA units, it takes up a HS slot. That is all.

The Adepticon Gladiator tournament would be another example of a tournament that (in the past, not sure about this year) allows IA units and superheavies.

So what you are taking to say that if it quack like a duck and walk like one, but it isn't?????? I'm sorry but i'm confused, i know what i'm reading and it doen't say anything about its not a heavy support in a codex, but it is a heavy support in the follwong codex. Remember the Eldar Night Spinner was in IA and now in White Dwarf, and its legal to play in Tournament.

aww darm last I looked at the achilles it was still experimental ... rather upsetting actually