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Hey folks!

A question I was debating with some friends of mine the other day....

JotWW says that if a model fails its initiative test, it is removed from play.

A necron within range of a rez orb...says that instead of being removed from play, turn it on its side for a WBB roll.

IE, wouldn't Necrons be immune to JotWW?

There are several things that immediately remove crons such as a massacre result in close combat. The 5ed FAQ is very clear in regards to these instances.

Well in every instance of discussing the WBB roll it never makes a mention to "models removed from play".

Basically, that would be a negative. The Necrons would not be immune to Jaws.

JotWW removes models from play.

WBB allows you to replace "removed as casualty" events with laying the model on its side - with certain exceptions based on causes of "removed as casualty" events.

Ressurection orb allows WBB when it would normally be disallowed based on the exceptions to WBB. None of those are "removed from play".

WBB does not stop "removed from play" events, but rather "removed as casualty" events.

Therefore WBB does not stop JotWW from removing necron models.

A completely irrelevant (to the rules discussion) tangent: How would a necron's ability to self-repair stop it from falling down a chasm opened under its feet?

I don't see why not they can do this;

Q. Are models with an ability to return to play
(e.g. Necrons, St. Celestine, etc) able to use their
special rule even after being removed from play
by The Last Laugh?
A. Yes they can. It sounds odd but their special
ability works just fine.

Here's the issue:

We'll Be Back

[...] Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty[...]


The Last Laugh removes models from play and counts them as casualties, thus initiating the We'll Be Back; however, Jaws of the World Wolf only removes models from play. Sure they count as casualties at the end of the game but this sets it apart.

So if models removed via JotWW aren't casualties then I guess their removal doesn't cause morale checks, correct? And I guess the unit can't count as being destroyed since those models weren't removed as casaulties, just removed from play (sorry Dark Eldar)?


The rules just don't take into account the possibility that models can just be 'removed from play' but not count as casualties. As such, I think you have to take the logical leap and assume 'remove from play' means to be removed as a casualty, because if you don't too many wacky situations occur.

yakface wrote:
So if models removed via JotWW aren't casualties then I guess their removal doesn't cause morale checks, correct? And I guess the unit can't count as being destroyed since those models weren't removed as casaulties, just removed from play (sorry Dark Eldar)?


The rules just don't take into account the possibility that models can just be 'removed from play' but not count as casualties. As such, I think you have to take the logical leap and assume 'remove from play' means to be removed as a casualty, because if you don't too many wacky situations occur.

This changes the game for Necrons caught in Sweeping Advances...

I was thinking the exact same thing, Gavin Thorne.

so how exactly does last laugh work diferently?

Don't they both just remove them from play?

Or am I missing something? Cuz it looks like last laugh removes them from play.
Normally this would be in combat but it doesnt have to be

Last Laugh specifies that it is removed as a casualty.

Editing to add:
This is relevant as Necron WBB functions on casualties--JotWW is simply remove them.
(Similar to how instantly killing a model is not necessarily Instant Death, yet is functionally identical in terms of what occurs not what can be stopped)

Take from that what you will.

Sweet, thanks Kirsanth I didn't have the codex just that piece from the faq.

Gavin Thorne wrote:This changes the game for Necrons caught in Sweeping Advances...

It really doesn't, since Sweeping Advance specifically doesn't allow any special rules to save them. There is no way around that, other than a special rule that even more specifically allows itself to be used against Sweeping Advances...

yakface wrote:
So if models removed via JotWW aren't casualties then I guess their removal doesn't cause morale checks, correct? And I guess the unit can't count as being destroyed since those models weren't removed as casaulties, just removed from play (sorry Dark Eldar)?


The rules just don't take into account the possibility that models can just be 'removed from play' but not count as casualties. As such, I think you have to take the logical leap and assume 'remove from play' means to be removed as a casualty, because if you don't too many wacky situations occur.

Under morale checks it never specifies that the models lost must be casualties.

RB p.44 wrote:A unit losing 25% or more of its models during a single phase must pass a Morale check at the end of that phase, or else it will fall back.

That seems to encompass any way of losing the models, not just as casualties. Of course the title of the section being casualties is certainly a point your argument's favor, but the language describing what is needed to trigger the 25% never mentions casualties.