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Future War Cultist wrote: Something just occurred to me. Shouldn't the U.K. be entitled to a share of the EU's assets, since we helped pay for them? All those buildings they operate out of, like the two parliment buildings in Brussels and Strasbourg (because one's just not good enough)? Shouldn't we be entitled to at least 1/28th of their value?
Steve steveson wrote: What about someone whose house is on the 30 mile line? If they sleep in the front room they are ok, but not in the back? Or perhaps it was runs through their garden? Can they sleep in their shed to get a job? I'm being slightly flippant, but there are already these kind of arguments and issues with school places. With a boarder it would be just insane. But it is about the same level as the UK governments ideas, which is why the EU are not taking it seriously.
What if you just extended it to the whole of Ireland in general, to get around that problem?
prepare yourselves for the " we need to eat less anyway" phase of the argument.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/02 11:12:36
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2. Cue all eu citizens wanting to work in the UK simply moving to Ireland, undermining the Brexit wish to better control legal immigration (which still makes me wonder why legal immigration is such a bad thing)
2. Cue all eu citizens wanting to work in the UK simply moving to Ireland, undermining the Brexit wish to better control legal immigration (which still makes me wonder why legal immigration is such a bad thing)
They could write it up so that they could work in Northern Ireland but not the rest of the uk. Like I said before, since Northern Ireland is the only part of the uk with a land boarder we should give it special consideration.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/02 11:16:31
And you think that won't look like the mainland UK is leaving a perceived problem to be handled by Northern Ireland? How would you handle people working in NI but having occasional necessary business trips to mainland UK? Do they need to get permits and visas everytime or how would that be set up? For how long could they work on the mainland before needing to return to NI at least?
Just off the top of my hat, without people feeling ostracized there'll be a lot of issues with that proposal.
Witzkatz wrote: And you think that won't look like the mainland UK is leaving a perceived problem to be handled by Northern Ireland? How would you handle people working in NI but having occasional necessary business trips to mainland UK? Do they need to get permits and visas everytime or how would that be set up? For how long could they work on the mainland before needing to return to NI at least?
Just off the top of my hat, without people feeling ostracized there'll be a lot of issues with that proposal.
Steve steveson wrote: What about someone whose house is on the 30 mile line? If they sleep in the front room they are ok, but not in the back? Or perhaps it was runs through their garden? Can they sleep in their shed to get a job? I'm being slightly flippant, but there are already these kind of arguments and issues with school places. With a boarder it would be just insane. But it is about the same level as the UK governments ideas, which is why the EU are not taking it seriously.
If only there was some kind of negotiation process to sort out issues like this.
True, none of us are part of the negotiation committee. Nevertheless, we are discussing it, right? And I think it's worth pointing out whether an idea is easy to implement with the chance to satisfy most participants - and when an idea might be theoretically workable, but only with years of gruelling back and forth and a good chance that trouble still won't be avoided.
Witzkatz wrote: True, none of us are part of the negotiation committee. Nevertheless, we are discussing it, right? And I think it's worth pointing out whether an idea is easy to implement with the chance to satisfy most participants - and when an idea might be theoretically workable, but only with years of gruelling back and forth and a good chance that trouble still won't be avoided.
I never claimed it would 've been easy to implement, hell we are introducing a new border in an area of the world that has had a lot of tension as a result of a border - no solution is going to be easy, just that this is feasible and possible if both sides were prepared to work at it - it's a shame the EU was not and views it as the UK problem to solve.
Out of curiosity, because as a German I certainly didn't see everything done during the Brexit campaign - and this is not meant as a quip or snipe from the sidelines - did any faction, Leave or Remain, actually talk about Northern Ireland and Ireland during the campaign? Posters, slogans, talks? Did anybody make a topic out of this at all before the vote happened...?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/02 12:41:30
Witzkatz wrote: Out of curiosity, because as a German I certainly didn't see everything done during the Brexit campaign - and this is not meant as a quip or snipe from the sidelines - did any faction, Leave or Remain, actually talk about Northern Ireland and Ireland during the campaign? Posters, slogans, talks? Did anybody make a topic out of this at all before the vote happened...?
There was much talk in NI itself (for obvious reasons)
It was touched upon in the televised shows. Project fear said a vote to leave was a vote back to a hard border and the bombings of the past, leave said that nobody wanted that and they would work very hard to prevent a hard border in NI (which they are no doing).
No solutions were offered - which remainers take as a sign that leavers had no plans, but given how much the EU seems to want to delay and not negotiate (maybe in the hopes that if we get no deal we'll stay I'm not sure) then anything that was put forward at the time would have been pointless as we need to agree anything with the EU first anyway.
Witzkatz wrote: Out of curiosity, because as a German I certainly didn't see everything done during the Brexit campaign - and this is not meant as a quip or snipe from the sidelines - did any faction, Leave or Remain, actually talk about Northern Ireland and Ireland during the campaign? Posters, slogans, talks? Did anybody make a topic out of this at all before the vote happened...?
There was much talk in NI itself (for obvious reasons)
It was touched upon in the televised shows. Project fear said a vote to leave was a vote back to a hard border and the bombings of the past, leave said that nobody wanted that and they would work very hard to prevent a hard border in NI (which they are no doing).
No solutions were offered - which remainers take as a sign that leavers had no plans, but given how much the EU seems to want to delay and not negotiate (maybe in the hopes that if we get no deal we'll stay I'm not sure) then anything that was put forward at the time would have been pointless as we need to agree anything with the EU first anyway.
This might be going back to the problem mentioned earlier - factions blaming each other - but honestly, if the Brexit campaign had a list of goals they wanted to achieve, positive changes that come out of Brexit for the United Kingdom, wouldn't you agree it would have ALSO been their job to simultaneously analyze possible negative changes and problems directly connected to their goals and at least propose possible solutions from the get go? Because this is not a 6th grade debate club but global politics, downsides and problems can't be just downplayed until the debate is won, they will come up sooner or later.
As an exaggerated metaphor, if someone proposed to heat up a cold mountain cabin by lighting a fire, but failed to address the issue of a missing chimney, doesn't it seem reasonable to find an issue for that before starting the fire? Rather then starting the fire, and then, now that it's everybody's problem with a cabin filling with toxic smoke, demand the other people in the cabin find solutions NOW?
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And yet here we are and the government still have no plans. Leave campaigners are still screaming "nasty EU!" over anyone who questions them or asks for workable ideas.
What workable alternative is there to a hard boarder then if we were so wrong about it? Because all I am seeing is that leave didn't and still doesn't have realistic plans for most things other than continuing to blame the EU and anyone who disagrees.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
Witzkatz wrote: True, none of us are part of the negotiation committee. Nevertheless, we are discussing it, right? And I think it's worth pointing out whether an idea is easy to implement with the chance to satisfy most participants - and when an idea might be theoretically workable, but only with years of gruelling back and forth and a good chance that trouble still won't be avoided.
I never claimed it would 've been easy to implement, hell we are introducing a new border in an area of the world that has had a lot of tension as a result of a border - no solution is going to be easy, just that this is feasible and possible if both sides were prepared to work at it - it's a shame the EU was not and views it as the UK problem to solve.
We're back at the creative and flexible motto I mentioned before.
The onus is on the UK to prove exactly what do they mean by frictionless and seamless. What good does it do to have a license plate-reading camera if you don't know who's in the car. Remember all the talk about refugees flooding the EU? Would you let them in the UK through an unchecked NI border?
And that's without touching the issue of goods. The UK proposal seems to hinge on everyone just playing nice. Because no one is going to abuse an unchecked border if there's money to be made right?
Steve steveson wrote: Leave campaigners are still screaming "nasty EU!" over anyone who questions them or asks for workable ideas...Because all I am seeing is that leave didn't and still doesn't have realistic plans for most things other than continuing to blame the EU and anyone who disagrees
Well, when We developed the Hive Mind, We were more or less committed to only thinking about one thing at a time. Don't complain though, it's what makes comments like yours accurate instead of just grotesque generalisations.
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Steve steveson wrote: And yet here we are and the government still have no plans. Leave campaigners are still screaming "nasty EU!" over anyone who questions them or asks for workable ideas.
What workable alternative is there to a hard boarder then if we were so wrong about it? Because all I am seeing is that leave didn't and still doesn't have realistic plans for most things other than continuing to blame the EU and anyone who disagrees.
Except we just spent two pages discussing a workable solution, if we can do it why can't the EU?
And again we can have all the plans in the world -indeed we have provided one, but we need EU input cause we can't make the choice for them
Witzkatz wrote: True, none of us are part of the negotiation committee. Nevertheless, we are discussing it, right? And I think it's worth pointing out whether an idea is easy to implement with the chance to satisfy most participants - and when an idea might be theoretically workable, but only with years of gruelling back and forth and a good chance that trouble still won't be avoided.
I never claimed it would 've been easy to implement, hell we are introducing a new border in an area of the world that has had a lot of tension as a result of a border - no solution is going to be easy, just that this is feasible and possible if both sides were prepared to work at it - it's a shame the EU was not and views it as the UK problem to solve.
We're back at the creative and flexible motto I mentioned before.
The onus is on the UK to prove exactly what do they mean by frictionless and seamless. What good does it do to have a license plate-reading camera if you don't know who's in the car. Remember all the talk about refugees flooding the EU? Would you let them in the UK through an unchecked NI border?
And that's without touching the issue of goods. The UK proposal seems to hinge on everyone just playing nice. Because no one is going to abuse an unchecked border if there's money to be made right?
Numberplate recognition would give you a record of the cars that regularly cross the border, this could then be cross referenced against those who have applied to have this right and if a car is regularly making the crossing but isn't registered you can send a call out to the police to stop and search it.
But of cause you know this, your just trying to make a point even though your argument doesn't hold up very well.
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To be a bit flippant, "Why don't you give Northern Ireland to the EU, border problem solves, now the UK has NO land border anymore! What, you think the unionists would be unhappy? Well, that's a problem on YOUR side, right?" could, under some circumstances, also be called a "plan". Just because it's a plan doesn't mean it's a good plan, or even worth discussing on the big stage, necessarily.
Numberplate recognition would give you a record of the cars that regularly cross the border, this could then be cross referenced against those who have applied to have this right and if a car is regularly making the crossing but isn't registered you can send a call out to the police to stop and search it.
But of cause you know this, your just trying to make a point even though your argument doesn't hold up very well.
Uh, a bunch of changing fake number plates for the truck full of drugs/guns/trafficked Eastern European women? Don't tell me the system will be perfect and easily recognize a good attempt at a fake, cause it won't, not for long.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/09/02 16:12:48
Witzkatz wrote: To be a bit flippant, "Why don't you give Northern Ireland to the EU, border problem solves, now the UK has NO land border anymore! What, you think the unionists would be unhappy? Well, that's a problem on YOUR side, right?" could, under some circumstances, also be called a "plan". Just because it's a plan doesn't mean it's a good plan, or even worth discussing on the big stage, necessarily.
Numberplate recognition would give you a record of the cars that regularly cross the border, this could then be cross referenced against those who have applied to have this right and if a car is regularly making the crossing but isn't registered you can send a call out to the police to stop and search it.
But of cause you know this, your just trying to make a point even though your argument doesn't hold up very well.
Uh, a bunch of changing fake number plates for the truck full of drugs/guns/trafficked Eastern European women? Don't tell me the system will be perfect and easily recognize a good attempt at a fake, cause it won't, not for long.
Because the people of NI don't want that. I know the idea of following the will of the people is an alien concept to the EU and remainers, but there you have it.
Yes you are right fake.numberplates can be used -these are of cause illegal - are you seriously saying the the EU/UK border needs to be the only border in the world where people don't break the law to.cross it? If that's the case what are we even bothering to discuss it for because there will always be someone willing to break the law to cross a border.
Because the people of NI don't want that. I know the idea of following the will of the people is an alien concept to the EU and remainers, but there you have it.
Like I said, it can't be really called a plan, can it? Because it's easily picked apart by basic arguments as yours. It was never meant to be more than a deliberately bad example, don't think I'd actually suggest such a plan! It was just meant to show that "We gave them a plan of ours, but they didn't want it, so now they have to come up with something better!" doesn't really work when the plans you hand in have too many holes to be properly considered.
If a few people in this forum can show glaring problems with a plan, I'm pretty sure both government officials in the UK and in the EU can find quite a few more. However, just one last thing about that open border thing - I'm still baffled that the whole "open backdoor" thing seems to bother you so little, Stranger83. Because I'm pretty sure there's more criminal organizations and smugglers in the EU wanting to make a profit out of a soft open land border with the UK than thugs in the UK wanting to exploit it from your side, if I'm being honest. And I thought Leave wanted to curb this as a part of their campaign rhetoric, too.
Because the people of NI don't want that. I know the idea of following the will of the people is an alien concept to the EU and remainers, but there you have it.
Like I said, it can't be really called a plan, can it? Because it's easily picked apart by basic arguments as yours. It was never meant to be more than a deliberately bad example, don't think I'd actually suggest such a plan! It was just meant to show that "We gave them a plan of ours, but they didn't want it, so now they have to come up with something better!" doesn't really work when the plans you hand in have too many holes to be properly considered.
If a few people in this forum can show glaring problems with a plan, I'm pretty sure both government officials in the UK and in the EU can find quite a few more. However, just one last thing about that open border thing - I'm still baffled that the whole "open backdoor" thing seems to bother you so little, Stranger83. Because I'm pretty sure there's more criminal organizations and smugglers in the EU wanting to make a profit out of a soft open land border with the UK than thugs in the UK wanting to exploit it from your side, if I'm being honest. And I thought Leave wanted to curb this as a part of their campaign rhetoric, too.
We have a soft open border now, and we are the ones wanting to keep free trade the same as now, so honestly if smugglers want to break EU law.and avoid tariffs that would not bother me at all. What I find odd is that I'm having to convince remainers of the benefit of keeping the border open.
And ok, I accept that you were trying to come up with a bad example, but if we have a problem that effects both of us don't you think we should both be working on a solution? The EU seems to currently be doing nothing other than waiting for our ideas.
Brexit never once has said they want to restrict trade, not sure where you are getting that from, We want to stop people wondering in and having the right to live/work and claim benefits, all of which we can do without a hard border.
Anyway, sadly this is the end of the time I have to discuss this - I'll leave you all to go back to your soapboxes that all brexiteers are bad, with no plans and nothing but the EU will ever work for anyone.
Numberplate recognition would give you a record of the cars that regularly cross the border, this could then be cross referenced against those who have applied to have this right and if a car is regularly making the crossing but isn't registered you can send a call out to the police to stop and search it.
Hold on, apply for what? So let's say I rent a car in Dublin and drive to Belfast.
If the car is registered for border crossings you have a problem. If the car isn't registered you have an entirely different sort. Then again, what happens if I just walk or cycle through the border? Can the magic eye border scan the passport on my pocket? What if I don't carry any ID? AFAIK the UK doesn't have any ID laws so I wouldn't be forced to identify myself.
So you mean the system would only be geared to catch people who regularly cross for work? Because a terrorist or illegal job seeker would only have to cross once.
Witzkatz wrote: To be a bit flippant, "Why don't you give Northern Ireland to the EU, border problem solves, now the UK has NO land border anymore! What, you think the unionists would be unhappy? Well, that's a problem on YOUR side, right?" could, under some circumstances, also be called a "plan". Just because it's a plan doesn't mean it's a good plan, or even worth discussing on the big stage, necessarily.
Numberplate recognition would give you a record of the cars that regularly cross the border, this could then be cross referenced against those who have applied to have this right and if a car is regularly making the crossing but isn't registered you can send a call out to the police to stop and search it.
But of cause you know this, your just trying to make a point even though your argument doesn't hold up very well.
Uh, a bunch of changing fake number plates for the truck full of drugs/guns/trafficked Eastern European women? Don't tell me the system will be perfect and easily recognize a good attempt at a fake, cause it won't, not for long.
Because the people of NI don't want that. I know the idea of following the will of the people is an alien concept to the EU and remainers, but there you have it.
They also didn't want to leave the EU in the first place. Rah rah Wrexit rah rah.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
At first I also didn't want to participate in this thread very much, to be honest - it seems a bit as if we're not making progress one way or the other.
@Stranger83, of course I see the benefit of an open border and free trade. I see even more benefits of just staying in the Union and not having to go through all this hassle, though. And I'm still a bit flabbergasted that your primary point of contention with the EU seems to be legal immigrants wanting to work in the UK - because, if the biggest problem is that some of them claim benefits inside the UK, holy crap, that's something that should either be solved on a UK law level or in conjunction with the EU! This one item wouldn't be worth creating a fissure of this size in Europe's political structure, in my opinion.
From my admittedly subjective point of view, it seems that during the Brexit campaigning much of it was more based on the worry of illegal immigrants - not legal - coming into the UK, and anger at the fact that Germany and other EU countries allowed so many unchecked refugees inside EU borders. I can at least understand the sentiment behind that, but less about *legal* immigrants.
And with that, I'll excuse myself from the thread for now. Stranger83, we have different viewpoints and opinions, but I enjoyed our discussion and the fact that it stayed polite!
Steve steveson wrote: Leave campaigners are still screaming "nasty EU!" over anyone who questions them or asks for workable ideas...Because all I am seeing is that leave didn't and still doesn't have realistic plans for most things other than continuing to blame the EU and anyone who disagrees
Well, when We developed the Hive Mind, We were more or less committed to only thinking about one thing at a time. Don't complain though, it's what makes comments like yours accurate instead of just grotesque generalisations.
To be fair, Steve has a point. There doesn't appear to be any game plan or coherent strategy here on the part of "leave" aside from just "we don't want to be roomies with the EU anymore". It's hard to negotiate when one side doesn't know what it wants or how it wants it, and it's unfair to blame the EU when negotiations go poorly in such a case.
That's really something that should have been settled before the referrendum so people had an actual idea of what they were voting for, and certainly before any negotiations began.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Steve steveson wrote: Leave campaigners are still screaming "nasty EU!" over anyone who questions them or asks for workable ideas...
To be fair, Steve has a point.
Oh, totally. Hardly a fifteen minute period can go by before I jerk and the screams of 'NASTY EU' are dragged from my lips as the Brexit Overmind stimulates the appropriate part of my nervous system. Here's an actual recording of another Brexiter I made when someone asked him for a workable idea.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/09/02 18:04:55
Except we just spent two pages discussing a workable solution, if we can do it why can't the EU?
We've spent thelast 2 pages pointing out how your idea doesn't work and that it's an impossible problem to solve whilst everyone is happy.
Numberplate recognition would give you a record of the cars that regularly cross the border, this could then be cross referenced against those who have applied to have this right and if a car is regularly making the crossing but isn't registered you can send a call out to the police to stop and search it.
But of cause you know this, your just trying to make a point even though your argument doesn't hold up very well.
There are so many holes in this I'm not sure where to start. Can anyone register to cross? How do you account for taxis, busses, rental cars? What's to stop people crossing in stolen cats? Or someone hiring a minivan, driving to Eire and coming home with 6 illegals?
It'd sort of work if there was either a high percentage of random stops or some sort of occupancy monitoring and passenger registration but you're essentially at a hard border again.
Honestly the only 3 options are:
1. Just keep free movement and leave it open.
2. Unify Eire/NI and put a hard border at the UK border.
3. Unify UK/NI and put a hard border at the Eure/NI border.
2 or 3 brings the paramilitaries back to life so you'd need a huge police & army presence for maybe another generation.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/09/02 20:30:19
Steve steveson wrote: Leave campaigners are still screaming "nasty EU!" over anyone who questions them or asks for workable ideas...
To be fair, Steve has a point.
Oh, totally. Hardly a fifteen minute period can go by before I jerk and the screams of 'NASTY EU' are dragged from my lips as the Brexit Overmind stimulates the appropriate part of my nervous system. Here's an actual recording of another Brexiter I made when someone asked him for a workable idea.
I noticed you cut out the rest of my comment there...
Steve was a bit hyperbolic about it, however, the fundamental problem remains, like it or not, the UK is the one that initiated the action in question here, and at the same time the UK is the one that doesn't know what it wants or how it wants it. I don't think that's an unfair statement by any means. The blame that gets put on the EU by some for negotiations going poorly as a result is, well, misplaced when such is the case.
That's not the say that the EU can and will probably do some dumb stuff, but when one side unilaterally jumps off a cliff but has no game plan or a clear vision of what they actually want, how they want it, or why they want it, it's going to complicate negotiations...and it's not the other side's fault.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
I noticed you cut out the rest of my comment there...
Steve was a bit hyperbolic about it...
A bit? If I began a statement about certain political factions in Brussels with something like 'Everyone in Europe hates democracy and wails about the fact we had a referendum whenever asked for workable ideas', I'd be about as accurate. Sure, there might be a grain of truth in the rest of the comment somewhere if you squint hard enough, but when you begin what you're saying with something that generalised and facetious, you don't really deserve to be taken seriously.
Accordingly, I'm not really going to be drawn into a discussion on that basis.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/09/03 04:17:56
It was just meant to show that "We gave them a plan of ours, but they didn't want it, so now they have to come up with something better!" doesn't really work when the plans you hand in have too many holes to be properly considered.
Stranger83, we have different viewpoints and opinions, but I enjoyed our discussion and the fact that it stayed polite! 
