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I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.

 Jidmah wrote:
I skipped stuff like Killsaw spanners that no one would take anyways.

Right now they're definitely not worth taking. After picking up the Tyranid codex I have a small hope that GW might give Orks the same treatment and price wargear differently depending on the ability of the unit taking it. Like, a cheap Killsaw for Spanners and a more expensive Killsaw for MANz and Big Meks. A cheap Rokkit for most Orks and a more expensive Rokkit for Killa Kanz and Tankbustas.

The differences between our models aren't quite as big as the differences between the bugs, but they still can be significant. Some things, like Big Shootas, are cheap enough that it doesn't really matter much what model they're going on.

 koooaei wrote:
I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.

Yeah, that would work fine for Gretchins, Kans, the battlewagon, the guns, MANZ, bikers, koptas and stuff. Buff them rather than give them price reductions.

But the Deff dread needs a price reduction. Buff it's damage output and it becomes even more of a glass cannon; Give it more wounds and it ends up with a damage table. Also tankbustas and lootas are already to glass-cannony to just buff into viability, unless you give them power-armour and extra wounds or something. Also the trukk needs to be cheaper not better.

 koooaei wrote:
I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.

I think that would work for some units, but I think a number of Ork units might be in a tricky situation. Ork specialists have always been glass cannons, but in 8th they're even harder to protect than before. Some of that can be fixed by making Trukks less expensive, and I guess some of it could be fixed by making them tougher but that part might be tricky.

Like, would it make sense to give Lootas a 4+ save? They don't really look like they should have a 4+ save. Maybe the giant metal gun cage could give them a 5+ save? They're still a pretty expensive unit to leave out in the open. Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Flash Gitz are kind of in the same boat. It would be nice to be able to run them in footslogging lists but as it stands they would just get blown off the board right away.

I definitely think my wartrakks will be taken out of retirement, even though I think it is odd that they would focus on buggies and ignore the deff-dread and flash-gits. Deffs and flash hits are both very popular models that are almost unusable right now.

Also, I think that KMK will see more use now that they are 42 points, which is really not that bad. Also Mek Gunz and Big Gunz are some of the only units that can work in a green tide without being either boyz or characters.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.

I think that would work for some units, but I think a number of Ork units might be in a tricky situation. Ork specialists have always been glass cannons, but in 8th they're even harder to protect than before. Some of that can be fixed by making Trukks less expensive, and I guess some of it could be fixed by making them tougher but that part might be tricky.

Like, would it make sense to give Lootas a 4+ save? They don't really look like they should have a 4+ save. Maybe the giant metal gun cage could give them a 5+ save? They're still a pretty expensive unit to leave out in the open. Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Flash Gitz are kind of in the same boat. It would be nice to be able to run them in footslogging lists but as it stands they would just get blown off the board right away.

Lootas, burnas and tankbustas really need ablative wounds. Like a specialist weapons squads. If you could take a squad of 5-20 shoota boyz where some or all of them could be upgraded to lootas, tankbustas, burnas, then that would help a bit.

pismakron wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.

I think that would work for some units, but I think a number of Ork units might be in a tricky situation. Ork specialists have always been glass cannons, but in 8th they're even harder to protect than before. Some of that can be fixed by making Trukks less expensive, and I guess some of it could be fixed by making them tougher but that part might be tricky.

Like, would it make sense to give Lootas a 4+ save? They don't really look like they should have a 4+ save. Maybe the giant metal gun cage could give them a 5+ save? They're still a pretty expensive unit to leave out in the open. Tankbustas, Burna Boyz and Flash Gitz are kind of in the same boat. It would be nice to be able to run them in footslogging lists but as it stands they would just get blown off the board right away.

Lootas, burnas and tankbustas really need ablative wounds. Like a specialist weapons squads. If you could take a squad of 5-20 shoota boyz where some or all of them could be upgraded to lootas, tankbustas, burnas, then that would help a bit.

That would definitely help, kind of like how people can take Devastators without Heavy Weapons to act as ablative wounds (although you would actually see Ork players taking advantage of this while it's not usually worth it for Space Marine players). This was actually how it used to be for Tankbustas a long time ago. If I remember correctly a unit of Tankbustas came armed with sluggas, close combat weapons and tankbusta bombs and up to four of them could be upgraded to have rokkits. I think that Lootas were the same way (I never played with them because they were basically stuck with overpriced Imperial weapons and I thought they were a waste of points). I can't remember if Burna Boyz were limited to how many Burnas they could take or not. I do know that back then up to three Boyz in a Slugga or Shoota Boyz mob could be upgraded to have burnas (size didn't matter, you could have three special weapons whether it was a squad of ten or a squad of thirty) so that was effectively the same thing.

If they gave Burnas and Deffguns an appropriate point value and dropped the points of Burnas and Lootas down to being the same points as Boyz, then I think Spanners could do a decent job as ablative wounds. If they were hanging out with some Zzap Guns or KMKs they might actually even do something useful before dying. Also, if they made a Spanner version of the Kill Saw that was relatively cheap and made Burna Boyz cheaper (they seem to cost a lot for their damage output) then I think we might have an intersting situation where the Spanners are more valuable than the Burna Boyz.

For Tankbustas I think Tank Hammers need a serious drop in points and then they could serve as ablative wounds. Right now they cost 10 points, only 2 points less than a Tanbusta with a Rokkit Launcha. Bomb Squigs only cost 10 points and they are way more effective than Bustas with Tankhammers. If the price of the Tankhammer was dropped to maybe 3 points then they could help serve as ablative wounds.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Ammo Runts being handed out to even more units. Like, maybe a unit of Burna Boyz or Lootas could have one Ammo Runt for every five models. The re-rolls to hit would be almost useless for Lootas and completely useless for Burnas, but IIRC the description of what Ammo Runts do has always been written in the unit entry so maybe for those units it could be changed to something like "You may sacrifice an Ammo Runt to re-roll the number of attacks the unit gets to make in the shooting phase." (I don't know what they could do for Tankbustas, maybe sacrifice one to get exploding 6s?.)

 koooaei wrote:
I'd actually want orks to go up in points instead. But get tougher, faster and killier. It's really unpractical to get to spam stuff to make it count. So, it might be what they're thinking right now. Maybe they'll just buff the stats without lowering points. Like they did to obliterators.

Yeah, but we are not getting anything besides those point drops, the two mediocre stratagems, the close to useless warlord trait and the pretty decent relic.

Earliest date for upgrades is March 2018 since Daemons, Necrons and Tau are definitely coming before orks.

Not to mention how obvious GW has no clue what orks currently need. None of the changes addressed any problems we have.
But hey, everything is fine because orks can jump within 9" to ignore allaitoc and raven-guard hit modifiers!

I think the main reason gw dropped the price of buggies is that they will probably be the next release for the orks, seeing as they just don’t fit with the rest of the army and they will want them to be viable to put on the table, to justify buying them.

My poor deffkoptas though, I’d just finished painting 6 of them when 8th came out. Was hoping this would be the fix they needed

Has anything been mentioned about rules fixes for specific units without codexes, or is it literally points adjustments, strategems and warlord traits they are handing out to us codexless peasants?

I could definitely see a buggy release in the future.

The old model is pretty bad.

Hey though. My Morkanaut got 20 points cheaper

Zomnivore wrote:
I could definitely see a buggy release in the future.

The old model is pretty bad.

Hey though. My Morkanaut got 20 points cheaper

34 points actually. Not bad, but not great either.

Orks got some help but they still don't have the codex, which can fix some points costs. I didn't think GW would fix all the overpriced unit before the codex to be honest. And we should consider all the other factions, because if they received some help and effective points reductions, orks could even be in a worse spot than before.

Now they just can play with more bodies since the pks are cheaper. That's the only real help they received. But for 13 points I'll probably use them on nobz leading boyz squads.

Transports, vehicles and walkers are still overpriced and that makes meganobz quite hard to include in a list even if they are significantly cheaper now. The green tide will remain orks' best built.

I'm kinda baffled that Space Wolves (who don't have a codex either and) who I think are much better off than Orks got sweeping price reductions when the Orks basically got nothing.

Guess I'll try to make do with my Wolves and just play funny comedy games with my Orks and keep a sliver of hope alive that Orks get a proper Codex soon...

Might be an indication that the Ork codex is near and SW codex a bit further out and that's why Orks didn't get big changes across the board. Fingers crossed.

 Weazel wrote:

Might be an indication that the Ork codex is near and SW codex a bit further out and that's why Orks didn't get big changes across the board. Fingers crossed.

Tau and Necrons got no point adjustments at all. My guess is that they are next on the codex train after Dark Angels and Blood Angels in december.

pismakron wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

Might be an indication that the Ork codex is near and SW codex a bit further out and that's why Orks didn't get big changes across the board. Fingers crossed.

Tau and Necrons got no point adjustments at all. My guess is that they are next on the codex train after Dark Angels and Blood Angels in december.

But scale of point drops are no real indication on codex order if any came. Orks or wolfs, either could come first. Propably wolves. Next 2 imperials, 3 non imperials. Likely more imperials next. After angels i think wolves are biggest #mperial faction without codex.

Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?

I'll start fielding meganobz. I got a ton of them and now with those price reductions i hope they won't suck as hard as they used to.

SemperMortis wrote:
Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?

Not really. The biggest thing is that PKs may well be okay-ish rather than awful, and that KMK's probably are a decent option now. Also, I like the cheaper Painboy.

I am definitely going to try out the wartrakks in different configurations, not because I think they are suddenly good, but because they may not be horrible and they can be deployed into reserves.

I don't know what to think really. It seems like the Ork point-adjustments was done in five minutes. It is definitely a low effort job.

And then there is the warlord trait of +1 S? Seriously?

 Weazel wrote:
I'm kinda baffled that Space Wolves (who don't have a codex either and) who I think are much better off than Orks got sweeping price reductions when the Orks basically got nothing.

Guess I'll try to make do with my Wolves and just play funny comedy games with my Orks and keep a sliver of hope alive that Orks get a proper Codex soon...

Might be an indication that the Ork codex is near and SW codex a bit further out and that's why Orks didn't get big changes across the board. Fingers crossed.

SW codex changes are mostly copy&past from all other marine factions, little work went into that. Also, rumor has it that Leman Russ is the next Primarch and therefore SW will come out near the end of the codex queue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SemperMortis wrote:
Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?

I haven't done the math, but PKs seem more efficient than BC again. Also Painboy is a viable option compared to Mad Dok once more and the relic is pretty much auto-take since it's better than a PK and costs less.

Buggies, Skorchas and Trakks are looking good because you almost get as much suvivability as kommandoz or storm boyz per point, so you might be able to substitute them of either of those, especially when you are fielding artillery. Sadly I don't own any of them.

Outside of that... yeah, no.

SemperMortis wrote:
Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?

I think the only real difference is that if you used big choppas you may spare some points elsewhere and replace with PKs instead. Maybe 1-2 lone skorcha buggies if you play with vehicles/walkers. Other than that I don't see many changes in the orks style. I'd really like to take meganobz, I used to field the bullyboyz formation in 7th edition, but the transports are still overpriced, I don't know, I'd still take tankbustas and boyz if I go with trukks/BWs.

One change I'll make for sure is to give the biker big mek with KFF a killsaw, mine is already modeled with that weapon. With the spared points of the warboss' power klaw basically.

Just with the point decreases CA is no game changer for us orks but still, i'll take the 150 + points extra i get in my list.
Also the point increases for the other factions benefit us.
For example a list with Girlyman, Celestine, Razorbacks and constripts with commissar lost some rules plus are 150+ points more expensive.
In total thats over 300 points difference for me, which is nice.

Furthermore we'll get additional (and hopefully better) strategems.
Also a warlord trait and relict. Sure they are not overpowered but give another (small) bonus - for free.
Let's see what else we'll get.

Also now its much easier to field a good brigade detachment in 1850 points which also helps a lot.
Especially with new strategems coming otherwise just reroll all the time and use the core book strategems.

Only downside is the gorkanaut and my shooty stuff like flash gitz still being a bit expensive but hey, now i have almost 200 points extra to compensate in a 2000 points game.
That killtank point nerf on the other hand really hit me, i was just getting started scratching one.
Well, maybe just make it a battlewaggon with optional lifta or supa cannon, which both got cheaper as well.

Overall i'm happy, small improvement is better than none.

 Marklarr wrote:


My poor deffkoptas though, I’d just finished painting 6 of them when 8th came out. Was hoping this would be the fix they needed

Try proxying them as chinork warkoptas. They went from 155 points to 74 points for reason that are not entirely clear.

Essentially the warkopta functions as two deffkoptas glued together, but with added bonus of a couple of deff-guns and a 10-ork transport capacity. Use it before they realise what they did and nerf it to kingdom come.

I haven't played with any manz yet, as I don't have the unit, but I'm not understanding why people aren't looking at using 'da jump' with them instead of putting them in a vehicle. Since charge rolls are the same for any unit, doesn't that negate their slow movement rate?

Ya chinorks got insanely good for 80pts and is prob the best transport option now. Too bad it can’t transpot manz

Da jump is quite risky for a unit that is not made by cheap bodies because there are high chances to fail the charge and getting deleted the subsequent turn, not to mention that many armies have a lot of screeners making the charge against an appropriate target impossible anyway.

3 meganobz that arrive with da jump are not going to kill anything, 5-6 are still very expensive and if you fail the charge the opponent is going to delete or cripple them quite easily. But even if they make the charge, 5 pair of killsaws could strip 8-10 wounds on average on T8 models that don't have invulns. Not that great result for 250-300 points plus the weirdboy.

The presence of screeners however is the biggest motive I wouldn't rely on teleporting meganobz in TAC lists. Occasionally this combo can certainly work though.

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I haven't played with any manz yet, as I don't have the unit, but I'm not understanding why people aren't looking at using 'da jump' with them instead of putting them in a vehicle. Since charge rolls are the same for any unit, doesn't that negate their slow movement rate?

Manz require very specific lists to start working. They don't fit too well with a greentie cause they're basically mini-vehicles. And if you start running them alongside a greentide, you're giving your opponent juicy targets for all the anti-tank they've brought. So, they're better off with lists that allready have other tough targets.

Although it can be quite benefical to throw a unit of 5+ manz behind enemy lines. Well, if you can avoid anti-tank.

 koooaei wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I haven't played with any manz yet, as I don't have the unit, but I'm not understanding why people aren't looking at using 'da jump' with them instead of putting them in a vehicle. Since charge rolls are the same for any unit, doesn't that negate their slow movement rate?

Manz require very specific lists to start working. They don't fit too well with a greentie cause they're basically mini-vehicles. And if you start running them alongside a greentide, you're giving your opponent juicy targets for all the anti-tank they've brought. So, they're better off with lists that allready have other tough targets.

Although it can be quite benefical to throw a unit of 5+ manz behind enemy lines. Well, if you can avoid anti-tank.

I think the change to fists has also limited Manz quite a bit. Fists used to demolish just about anything they touched. Now they are significantly less effective against armored targets due to the negative to hit, D3 wounds and the number of wounds that it takes to kill a tank. They are also less effective against everything else due to negs to hit. So atm they are a mediocre solution to heavy targets while still requiring delivery system. Terminators are still pretty effective against infantry with stormbolters along with being able to innately DS.

I still maintain that Manz require a damage increase in fists or saws inorder to become competitively relevant again.

Looking at starting my list for LVO and I am little bit dumbfounded as to where to start. Any ideas on how to get started? Must have units, etc?

Just got a quick peek at the CA at my local store, I have a clarification on the 2nd ork stratagem:
Title "MOB UP"
1 CP - At the end of your movement phase select 2 infantry units at least 2" away from each other, that share A data-sheet. (examples of copies of units given) One must have 10 or more models and the other must have 10 or less. (so 10 can join 10) Treat those 2 units as the same unit for the rest of the game.

So good not great like it could have been, but would have had to have been FAQ' d to make sense the other way.

- As for it's use, i like the idea of 20 mega nobs jumping deep turn 1; or maybe 15 nobs (with the salt and pepper) and 15 ammo runts; or heck even 40 boyz would have a better chance of not being blown to bits and you got another rokit-boy and nob in there too; 2 or 3 units like that with 4-5 odd boyz - KMK's in back.... yeh.. yeh... i think i can make this work....

Was hoping that CA would either give various points reductions acrose multiple units or useful stratagems,

We got neither, O'well. Time to play the waiting game again.

SemperMortis wrote:
Honest opinions guys. DO any of these Chapter Approved changes effect the way you play? I mean drastically mind you. If you were already taking 5 Big Choppas then this just means a couple extra points. Do the price cuts make you want to take units you hadn't previously fielded in competitive games?

It isn't going to change the list I run right now very much. If I had more Buggy models I'd probably try to run them as Skorchas to make a Brigade detachment, but I only have the one.

It does mess with the Kill Tank list I was working on, but I haven't actually played with that yet, and to be honest the chances of it actually being assembled and painted before our actual Codex drops are basically zero so I'm not going to get worked up over it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KillerOfMany wrote:
Just got a quick peek at the CA at my local store, I have a clarification on the 2nd ork stratagem:
Title "MOB UP"
1 CP - At the end of your movement phase select 2 infantry units at least 2" away from each other, that share A data-sheet. (examples of copies of units given) One must have 10 or more models and the other must have 10 or less. (so 10 can join 10) Treat those 2 units as the same unit for the rest of the game.

So good not great like it could have been, but would have had to have been FAQ' d to make sense the other way.

- As for it's use, i like the idea of 20 mega nobs jumping deep turn 1; or maybe 15 nobs (with the salt and pepper) and 15 ammo runts; or heck even 40 boyz would have a better chance of not being blown to bits and you got another rokit-boy and nob in there too; 2 or 3 units like that with 4-5 odd boyz - KMK's in back.... yeh.. yeh... i think i can make this work....

Seems like a solid stratagem.

Combining 15 Tank Bustas units to get 22 Rokkits and 8 Bomb Squigs, then Da Jumping them and giving them the Dakka Dakka Dakka! stratagem could be an impressive suicide attack. They would probably get wiped off the board the next turn though and that would be a lot of points gone.


I was wondering about hiding some MANz and a Weird Boy out of LoS and using Da Jump on them later in the game when lots of units are tied up and more holes have opened up. The Wierdboy would be using Da Jump on other units the first couple turns of the game. They'd still be pretty vulnerable to Basilisks, Manticores and other such units. They could be placed in a transport and disembark when it's time to Jump them, but that's starting to get pretty expensive. It seems like most of the time when I'm trying to figure out how to make MANz work it goes along the lines of "Well, if I just do X and X and X then they'll be able to get into combat and actually do some damage!" but X+X+X+MANz = crazy expensive.