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I was reading the Storm Trooper entry and it states for wargear they have a hotshot lasgun, hotshot laspistol, close combat weapon etc. Now I know that in other entries if the equipment is different for the sergeant he has a (different equipment) inside of the entry. So therefore don't Storm Troopers benefit from having 2 close combat weapons?

Yes, yes they do.

you are right. They work like grey hunters and CSM. Just less...powerful

The bigger problem with stormtroopers is that they are carapace vets that pay 8 points to get funky deployment, 2 ccw, a bad AP3 weapon, and lose the ability to take a 3rd special weapon, a heavy weapon, and a power fist.

The hotshot lasgun being rapid fire, how exactly does that work with an 18 inch range? 9 inches 2 shots and 1 shot up to 18 inches?

they are carapace vets that pay 8 points to get funky deployment, 2 ccw, a bad AP3 weapon, and lose the ability to take a 3rd special weapon, a heavy weapon, and a power fist.

You compare two very different units here.

5 men with 2 meltas and 4+ save outflanking are very different to 10 men 3 meltas 5+ save and scoring. Although they have about the same points costs.

+stormtroopers:

tougher, easier to hide, not primary target for the enemy, better weapon delivery

+veterans:

scoring, slightly better output

Funk3140 wrote:The hotshot lasgun being rapid fire, how exactly does that work with an 18 inch range? 9 inches 2 shots and 1 shot up to 18 inches?

Rapid-Fire is not half maximum range. You always, always, always fire two shots at 12" - or one shot at maximum range. Regardless of whether your range is 18", 24" or 30".

MinMax wrote:

Funk3140 wrote:The hotshot lasgun being rapid fire, how exactly does that work with an 18 inch range? 9 inches 2 shots and 1 shot up to 18 inches?

Rapid-Fire is not half maximum range. You always, always, always fire two shots at 12" - or one shot at maximum range. Regardless of whether your range is 18", 24" or 30".

This is true. It used to be different in 4th, which is where there might be confusion.

I've found Stormtroopers to be a lot better than I thought, actually. I used to have the same opinion: compared to Vets they're just too expensive. I've run a couple squads recently and I've found that they're pretty awesome. I run two groups of 5 with two meltas. I couldn't see adding more guys. They're a suicide squad for me, so basic is better, and I almost always deepstrike them.

The important part, I think, is to couple them with other disruptive units, i.e. Marbo, Penal Legion, other Troopers. They're best if used either as pinpoint removal or as a way to draw your opponent out of position. After that, they can die all they want.

105 pts for 2 accurate ds meltas is pretty good. With bs 4 they killl then die.

Yeah, as many have said here, I run 1 squad (might add a second in time) of suicide melta. 105 points is totally worth reducing a vehicle that's harassing you to molten slag.

Even if they land where you want, they can miss with the Meltas. It's important to take into account how the opponent will react, or they can be altogether wasted.

right, stormies with airborne assault let you basically pick where you want to show up and show up there. Only slightly worse than marbo. The problem, though, is they have only 2 special weapons, which is why I probably won't be running melta with them (as even two penetrating AP1 shots are unfortunately less than guaranteed to wreck a vehicle). I like them with plasma, though, as you have to be REALLY unlucky with them to scatter out of 12", and 4 plasma shots is plenty capable of doing some serious damage to the kinds of targets you'd want to be shooting plasma with. Needing to get in 6" on the other hand is a little less certain.

In any case, stormies are NOT veterans. Veterans exist to be a scoring unit that does as much damage as an infantry platoon, except it's cheaper and can conveniently ride in a single chimera. Stormies, on the other hand, are a unit where you basically point at any one of your opponent's units and say "that dies this turn". They both have their place, but they don't actually have very much overlap, unlike in the old guard codex.

i have run a squad of ten stormtroopers alot lately to success and just plain fun. instead of tank busting (as most people use them for), i have used them as more to take troops of of objectives.

i run a full ten man squad with two flamers. deep strike them into play, then falme away and 15 shots with the hotshots. in the past month i have only once been out of the flamers range or 12 inches.

I know they cant score for objectives, but, they take care of all those pesky troops that can. SM players here usualy put scouts on those, and the ap3 works well against them.

I feel guard has better options than trying to rely on deepstrikers.

NTM their HSLG is terrible imo

the hotshot may not be the best weapon out there, but, the ap3 makes it nice for guard. it is good to have a weapon that doesnt let those pesky ultra marines (or any other) get a save.

of all people guard do not need ap3 ... Vets can take 3xplasma per squad or melta, flamer etc.
CCS can have 4

leman russ'
basilisks
the list gos on and on
They cost too much for what they may do

it's the delivery system that makes stormtroopers stormtroopers, not the firepower. They sacrifice some of their firepower (well, actually, they keep the firepower but then get much more expensive), because they can show up out of nowhere.

They are MUCH more difficult for your opponent to stop or mitigate than are other units which do the same damage.

Plus, they also tend to show up near your troops, which helps with field position.

GeneralDisaray wrote:105 pts for 2 accurate ds meltas is pretty good. With bs 4 they killl then die.

Veterans also have bs 4 and put them in a valk or vendetta and you will be able to get anywhere on the board and shoot as easily as ds plus you have one extra melta so you will defiantely hurt something not just stop it firing.

Ed_Bodger wrote:

GeneralDisaray wrote:105 pts for 2 accurate ds meltas is pretty good. With bs 4 they killl then die.

Veterans also have bs 4 and put them in a valk or vendetta and you will be able to get anywhere on the board and shoot as easily as ds plus you have one extra melta so you will defiantely hurt something not just stop it firing.

For that price, you get 2 Stormtrooper Squads. And Valkyries and Vendettas aren't immune to being shot, while deep striking units are.

Deep Striking units are also prone to scatter and the problems that can entail. Not many decent players leave nice big areas within melta range of their vehicles for you to land in. 10 Vets in a Vendetta with 3 Special weapons are a much better and more reliable choice than two units of stromtroopers and are cheaper.

Ed_Bodger wrote:Deep Striking units are also prone to scatter and the problems that can entail. Not many decent players leave nice big areas within melta range of their vehicles for you to land in. 10 Vets in a Vendetta with 3 Special weapons are a much better and more reliable choice than two units of stromtroopers and are cheaper.

2 storm units with x2 melta and PP is 230

Vendetta with melta vets is also 230

Not to mention storms can reroll scatter

Ed_Bodger wrote:and are cheaper.

Uh, "better and more reliable" maybe, cheaper though?

One squad of vets with 3 meltas and a vendetta for them to ride around in: 230
Two melta squads of stormtroopers: 210

How are they better? Because they can take more wounds? Because they have three meltas instead of two?

How are they more effective? Because they're troops?

The problem is that if you use a vendetta as a delivery system to get vets to where they need to be to melta something, then you've wasted the vendetta that turn and potentially put it danger close to your enemy (unless you're using the grav chute thingy, which is WORSE than stormtrooper deepstrike). I've never had vets get out of a vehicle and have had them survive more than one, maybe two turns after. So that's 100 points wasted, not to mention the vendetta you've left danger close, which would be 130. Even if it doesn't get blown, you've still not shot with it, and you either have to race it away on your next turn, or drift back slowly shooting as much as you can in the meantime. In either case, you've given up shots to get your meltas up close, and at the benefit of getting a third melta in there. Also, thanks to the deepstrike reroll, it's surprisingly hard to mishap stormies. I won't argue that they're not an expensive unit. I'll argue that in a guard army, 105 throwaway points is not terrible.

Using a vet squad for the things that a stormtrooper squad could handle is like using a boxcutter as a screwdriver.

I'd rather have a scoring more spec weapons boxcutter than a screwdriver than can not show up until the last turn

I like the models ... hate what they do

Wow, so the one thing I'm getting from this thread is that people REALLY dislike deepstriking. The comment about storm troopers not coming in until last turn seemed excessive to me also. Isn't it 4+/3+/2+/automatic? That gives you a stupid slim chance of coming in last turn, and even then, if you were last turn, you could just deep strike to contest an objective, still giving them a use.

I play against daemons alot, and have tried using DS'ing units before ... More often than not they don't come in when you need them

If you add in an astropath its making them more useful but bumping up their overall pts cost imo

Besides IG have better Elite choices

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Besides IG have better Elite choices

I'm genuinely curious. Which ones do you consider better?

I think the biggest thing people overlook with Stormtroopers is the fact that their guns are AP3 - this means that against MeQ they mesh very well with plasma. Where Vets would be throwing out lasgun shots with their 6 plasma shots (giving armour saves, allowing wound allocation to reduce the effectiveness of the plasma), the troopers ignore the marine armour with all their shots. Not to mention that with DS they have a darned decent chance of getting a clean shot at someone out of cover.

daedalus wrote:

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote:Besides IG have better Elite choices

I'm genuinely curious. Which ones do you consider better?

He probably means a Psycher Battle Squad. That's all I can think of, competitively. Personally, I enjoy Marbo, but he's an easy KP.

daedalus wrote: The comment about storm troopers not coming in until last turn seemed excessive to me also. Isn't it 4+/3+/2+/automatic?

I can't imagine running an IG list on purpose that it wasn't 3+/2+/2+/automatic though.