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After comparing them to vanilla assault marines, I really don't see any problems with them...Why so much hate on them? Is it because they're a measly two points more than vanilla guys?

Pros-
Can take two assault weapons per squad. Assault squads can only take plasma pistols or flamers. Those two melta guns become a great suicide unit, if nothing else

Relatively cheap compared to plague marines, which do the same thing (spamming melta on units of five guys, if that's they way you play)

The upgrades for the aspiring champion are much cheaper (10 point difference in PF cost)

Can take icons (which are better in large groups, I'll admit, but still useful if you need that invul save or whatever)

The only worthwhile FA choice in the army

Cons:
Relatively Small units die quite easily without being fearless. IOCG helps, but It's not really worth it.

No special rules. Combat tactics and ATSKNF come standard on assault marines. We pay an extra two points...For what exactly? The ability to take meltas and such?

Outclassed by Termicide units for deep striking mayhem

Icons do very little for 5 man units, and end up costing way too much

No reason to take 10 guys, since you get all the special weapons you need with five guys

Crappy metal models that fall over at every chance


I dunno. I think they still have a place in a lot of CSM lists for their utility. They can take flamers too, which makes for a nice little anti-horde if you need it. Sergeants can take a plethora of options, and although not as many as vanilla guys, we get them for a LOT cheaper.

Discuss.

Not so much as bad as when compared to their older self they were much more useful. Mainly Hit and Run. The loss of that rule really hurt them. And personally I just flat out dont like Assault Squads and their derrivitives, since they still die the same way as a normal marine, but charge into the meat grinder faster and cost more. Bikes accomplish the same thing, but with a much higher survival rate and better weapons.

I like raptors myself, Samus! Imperial guard tank players HATE them...5 guys w/ 2 melta, plus a combi-melta for the sergeant I think...that's 3 melta fairly cheaply and if you have other big nasties coming up...well, you don't have to sway my vote-I like raptors. For me, it's just that the models aren't a favorite

timetowaste85 wrote:I like raptors myself, Samus! Imperial guard tank players HATE them...5 guys w/ 2 melta, plus a combi-melta for the sergeant I think...that's 3 melta fairly cheaply and if you have other big nasties coming up...well, you don't have to sway my vote-I like raptors. For me, it's just that the models aren't a favorite

Yeah, we're in the same boat then. The models are pretty bad

I am the total opposite of you guys. I love the Raptor models.

Let me be fair...the models don't look bad, just that they're top heavy, fall over and as such are obnoxious. Then again, I'd personally rather mix mine with possessed shoulder pads, gargoyle wings from Nids and a box of Chaos Marines-maybe include some possessed heads too, as helmets/masks. So maybe I do dislike the models a bit...haha

I think the problem people have with raptors is that they aren't any better in CC than regular Chaos marines. For 1 point more you can get your self a Khorne Berzerker.

In C:SM assault marine have their uses thanks to their two CC weapons and two special weapons, somethig you can't get with your regular Tactical squad. There is no such difference in C:CSM.

I think it's the price really, and the fact that if you want CC infantry you might as well go for some berzerker or somesuch combo of infantry.

Then again I run infantry heavy chaos, so my raptors are an excellent complement to everything elses slow speed.

Raptor models are great. The aspiring champ is one of the best chaos sculpts imo. It's really a shame that you cannot bitz order him, in fact even back in the day it was impossible to as the GW customer service reps swore that he didn't exist as a part code.

On the rules side, assault marines are never super good, and raptors got nerfed since last edition while other things got buffed. They weren't particularly competitive back then, and with a large comparative reduction in power they just aren't worth putting on the table.

jump-pack units are harassment units. They allow you to pick a target 18" away, regardless of intervening terrain or enemy units, and say "that dies now". I'm sure khorne berzerkers are good, but they either have to foot slog it or run around in a closed-top vehicle, which means they're actually not all that faster than regular CSM, and they have to deal with possibly getting snagged on terrain or being forced to attack worthless popcorn units.

Plus, like all good harassment units, they are also much better at getting you out of a jam. If you have a Tervigon that suddenly appears 13" away from your berzerkers, they're helpless, other than a couple of pistol shots. Then, from 18" away comes 2 meltaguns and a hidden power fist that's able to just sweep in, and put it down.

Again, loss of Hit and Run kinda reduced their capacity as harassment units.

they lost hit and run, but gained 5th ed combat resolution. Like most FA choices in most armies, they exist to attack only what they know they can kill. Sending them in against a powerblob is not only a dumb idea, but is what other units were designed to handle.

They punish your opponents for their mistakes, and much better than regular CSM.