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Hey guys, I'm in the middle of a campaign, and I'm going well against all my opponents except one, who absolutely crushes me every time we play. He tends to be a bad sport about it too, so I was hoping for some help in taking him down.

His list is roughly as follows:
Eldrad
Dire avengers x 2, both in Wave serpents
Falcon x 2
Shining Spears
Pathfinders

The grav tanks seem to have all the bells and whistles, and he spams rerolls via eldrad, who hides in said tanks.

I play Speed Freeks, and I know if I can pop the tanks I'll slaughter him, so I was wondering if rokkit spam (via deffkoptas and warbuggies) is a reliable method of doing this (He uses holo-fields/star engines/spirit stones to make them hard to crack).

My other friends play Imperial Guard (Mech), Night Lords, Tau, Necrons and Blood Angels, and I know they'd all appreciate help on taking this guy down too (He isn't well liked), so if you have any tips for those armies I'll be sure to pass em on.

Cheers guys, and Merry Christmas

Serpents can be a pain to take out with shooting, but if you can get in close then they get knocked out of the sky pretty quickly as none of the fancy upgrades will help. Falcons are a tad harder to take out as they keep the Holofields, but still don't like being hit in assault. Nothing in his list will be able to deal with Orks in combat so if you can get in close enough it should be all over.

Rokkit Spam could work, Lootas will work better, do both if you can manage it. Massed S7 fire from Lootas should drop 1-2 skimmers per turn, Energy Fields won't help and even Holos can't take that many hits and come out the other end in one piece. Even fully tuned Eldar simply can't stand up to 5th edition lists which run a decent amount of long ranged S7/8 shooting. Considering he only has 4 vehicles and has included several very sub par units you should do fine. The Spears might manage a few wounds on a Boyz Mob or Nob unit and then will disappear under all your attacks every time. Pathfinders can maybe kill a couple of Boyz per turn but you are fearless so don't really care, they can't back up and keep firing, so if you just keep running at them you will catch them (even on foot).

Neutralising Eldrad isn't actually that hard either, if he fortunes himself he has a 3++ (he usually won't bother with this until he know he will be in combat so try and catch him off guard if you can), but its still only going to take a single power claw hit getting through to kill him. With a Rokkit Spam list you could possibly manage it with shooting as well, but simply getting into combat with him and hitting him until he dies its far easier for Orks (most armies actually).

For the other guys in your group, those who play armies which can take psychic defence should always try and take it, you won't stop everything but it significantly reduces the effectiveness of all the Eldar units if they lose their rerolls. Plenty of S7+ shooting will also help, those who rely completely on melta for anti tank can run into some issues (it can do the job but against Energy Fields they aren't efficient).

If that nothing else works for dealing with the skimmers you could always just run him over with multiple Death Rollas, they can possibly dodge the ram but the Death Rolla is still going to smash things with multiple S10 hits.

Loots and the rollas should work well for you, like power stated he can dodge the ram but not the rolla

Thanks for the tips guys, I might invest in some lootas, but as my list stands I have 8 PKs, so it might just be a matter of getting up close and personal.

Also, thanks for pointing that out about the rolla, he's been telling me he can dodge it, so i'll look into it.

Dean889 wrote:Thanks for the tips guys, I might invest in some lootas, but as my list stands I have 8 PKs, so it might just be a matter of getting up close and personal.

Also, thanks for pointing that out about the rolla, he's been telling me he can dodge it, so i'll look into it.

Just something to note. Getting up close and personal with a Mech Eldar army is difficult. They are built to run away.

A couple of things that work well against multiple eldar grave tanks, is positioning your units so that you get to shoot at the back armor of the tank. The gravs are going to be zipping all over the board to claim cover, but if you are spread out, they will be exposing back armor to you. Also remember that an immobilized result on a skimmer counts as destroyed if it moved flat out. So even glances will kill them on 6's, and pen's on 4/5/6.

I don't think you will ever reach a tank with a PK, so get some S7/8 long range guns to take them down. Massed Necron fire with 6's to glance usually do the trick against me.

phyrephly wrote:Just something to note. Getting up close and personal with a Mech Eldar army is difficult. They are built to run away.

A couple of things that work well against multiple eldar grave tanks, is positioning your units so that you get to shoot at the back armor of the tank. The gravs are going to be zipping all over the board to claim cover, but if you are spread out, they will be exposing back armor to you. Also remember that an immobilized result on a skimmer counts as destroyed if it moved flat out. So even glances will kill them on 6's, and pen's on 4/5/6.

I don't think you will ever reach a tank with a PK, so get some S7/8 long range guns to take them down. Massed Necron fire with 6's to glance usually do the trick against me.

Hmmm, well I have a squad of 5 deffkoptas with twin linked rokkits and a squad of warbuggies with twin linked rokkits, I could try scouting/ holding them in reserve to try popping the back armour. I've been a bit reluctant to do that in the past though, as I've found my warbuggies generally underperform.

Dean889 wrote:
Also, thanks for pointing that out about the rolla, he's been telling me he can dodge it, so i'll look into it.

P. 71 under "Ramming a Skimmer." If you try to ram with a deffrolla, he gets a 3+ save against the ram attempt. If he passes the 3+ roll, the deffrolla-equipped vehicle has to stop 1" away and not move any further that turn. So the odds are not good.

Also the problem with trying to use PKs against skimmers is that you usually need to roll 6's to hit, because the skimmers are moving over 6" a turn. So the odds are really not good.

Your original idea of rokkits is better. Anything with a decent number of shots at Str7 or better--lootas, rokkits, kannons--those are your best bets. Hit the wave serpents first because they're easier to shoot down (they can't have holofields) then the falcons.

I think you're better off taking the earlier suggestion and going with Lootas. 2 Squads of 5 Lootas is very cheap. You'll get much more firepower out of them for the price than you will from your Rokkit Buggies.

Yes, Rokkit Buggies have +1S on the attack, so they'll do a little bit of a better job at getting penetrating hits... but they don't have the volume of firepower that Lootas have.

If you're in a speed freak army, Warbikes with their PK's are your best chance of getting close and personal, but I agree hitting on 6's is a no-win situation here.

My suggestions in order of effectiveness would be:

1) Lootas
2) Deffkoptas
3) Buggies
4) Killa-Kans w/Rokkits

You could also be REALLY WEIRD and try....

5) Zzapp Gun Artillery

Yeah I know. I've never TRIED this myself. Even a glancing hit from a Zzapp gun will cause a "Crew Shaken" result, so you could use this to keep shaking his tanks so he can't fire with them or the passengers inside.

Trust me.. if you want your best chance at shutting this guy down HARD... go Lootas on his smirk eldar butt (sorry you made the guy sound like a jerk)

Lootas, preferably small multiple units, its all to easy to hide from one big unit, or at least get into cover from one bit unit.
Get several lines of fire going.

To support your lootas invest in some faster AT like koptors, if the lootas can't get them, send the koptors round to deal with them.
If all else fails... charge with your boyz!!!
It's a long shot with the hitting on 6's (if it moved) but with all your attacks and S4 on the charge you might get lucky, if you immobilise the tank, then the PC will be auto-hitting

Thanks for the help guys, I'm playing him tomorrow, so I'll go with the koptas/buggies for now, and if they don't work I'll check out the lootas down at my local gaming store.

As for the Deff-rolla it's not actually a ram and therefore isn't dodged IIRC

From the Ork Codex FAQ

"Q. Can you use the Deffrolla when Ramming
vehicles or does it only work when Tank
Shocking non-vehicle units?
A. The death rolla does indeed inflict D6 S10 hits
against vehicles, as Ramming is just a type of
Tank Shock."

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1490295a_FAQ_Orks_2010.pdf

Deffrolla attack=tank shock=ram. All the same thing, all the same rules apply.

Well, the koptas worked a treat, the game was a draw, with 3 of 4 grav tanks smoking ruins at the end of the game.

Thanks for the advice

Great job! Only a Draw?

How many Deffkoptas did you end up using, how did the battle go?

5 Koptas, 3 buggies, then i had 2 trukks with boyz, a battlewagon with 19 boyz and a kff big mek, and a biker boss with some warkbikers

Capture and control, he went first and I took a little bit of a beating at first, but the buggies and koptas both came in turn 3 and sunk both wave serpents. (Quite an impact on the game )
The falcons proved a little harder to crack, but the koptas managed to stun one then my warboss charged in and nuked it.

He'd destroyed both my trukks, so I couldn't make any late dashes for objectives, but I consolidated my scoring units around his objective. He managed to scoot in his remaining falcon to contest last turn, but overall I fared pretty well, and was in control most of the game (After my AT rocked up)

I could blame the game ending on turn 5, but I dislike blaming the dice, and I was fairly lucky that the warbuggies destroyed a wave serpent the turn they arrived

The deffkoptas unfortunatly didn't survive the game (His shining spears minced them pretty bad) But they will definitely be a favourite of mine for light armour from now on (I come up against rhinos/valkyries/devilfish regularly due to the armies I play against), so these guys will probably find a permanent place on my lineup.

Thanks for the advice guys, Keep Rolling 6s

Also, remember that according to the latest FAQ, a stunned skimmer does not get the dodge saving throw.

I definitely wouldn't outflank the kopters and buggies. If you scout forward at maximum speed, you'll put pressure on your opponent earlier, while also allowing you a first turn charge with the deffkopters. This should give the rest of your army some time to close and get to grips.

Irdiumstern wrote:I definitely wouldn't outflank the kopters and buggies. If you scout forward at maximum speed, you'll put pressure on your opponent earlier, while also allowing you a first turn charge with the deffkopters. This should give the rest of your army some time to close and get to grips.

Agreed. If they'd had an impact earlier I would've had a much bigger edge. I'll scout them next time. My next game next week is against the chaos player though, who I thrash on a regular basis (He's a graphic design student though, and every single one of his models is converted and looks stunning, I always feel guilty killing them...)

phyrephly wrote:Also remember that an immobilized result on a skimmer counts as destroyed if it moved flat out. So even glances will kill them on 6's, and pen's on 4/5/6..

A skimmer is only destroyed on a immob result in its own movement phase, not the following shooting phase.

p71: "...a skimmer that is immobilized immediately crashes and is destroyed (wrecked) if it moved flat-out in its previous movement phase."

Flavius Infernus wrote:Deffrolla attack=tank shock=ram. All the same thing, all the same rules apply.

this is incorrect.

What would be correct is: Ram = Tank Shock = Eligibilty of hits from a Deff rolla.

Ram Generates its own hit, and it's own damage.

Deff rolla generates its own hit(s) and it's own damage; the Deff rolla hits are not an addition d6 Ram hits. They are d6 deff rolla Hits.

Skimmers can jink out of the way of a ram but are still going to take d6 s10 hits; just like the unit that gets out of the way of the Battle wagon still gets hit by the Deff rolla.

Dean889 wrote:

Irdiumstern wrote:I definitely wouldn't outflank the kopters and buggies. If you scout forward at maximum speed, you'll put pressure on your opponent earlier, while also allowing you a first turn charge with the deffkopters. This should give the rest of your army some time to close and get to grips.

Agreed. If they'd had an impact earlier I would've had a much bigger edge. I'll scout them next time. My next game next week is against the chaos player though, who I thrash on a regular basis (He's a graphic design student though, and every single one of his models is converted and looks stunning, I always feel guilty killing them...)

Hmmm.... not so fast.

I think you did the right thing in the battle you fought by outflanking. Buggies can't outflank though, did you just hold them in reserve?

As you noticed, Deffkoptas get shot up pretty quick. They're T5 with a 4+ armor, and 2 wounds, but they're really hard to keep in cover, and 4+ armor is easy to get around. For this reason, I find that if I'm going 2nd, it's usually best to outflank with them. When they arrive, they cause havoc. If you're going 2nd, they tend to just get shot up before they can do anything.

Now if you're going FIRST it's a different story. Then you can turbo boost on your scout move, and be right up in your opponent's face on turn 1, and hopefully do some serious damage. Again, don't expect them to live on to turn 2 though. They'll draw a lot of fire.

Ork players need to stop insisting that rollas can hit a dodged skimmer. If a skimmer dodges, the ramming vehicle stops before it reaches the vehicle. No damage is done. The crew just sits there wondering where the skimmer went. No contact no rolla. This has continues to be argued over and over again and it makes the ork players look bad when they say they can hit a dodged skimmer, but at the same time destroy a vehicle and run through it with a rolla. This is called cake eating. Either deff rolla is the “ram” in which it can run through vehicles and miss skimmers or it’s in addition to the “ram” in which case you cannot destroy a vehicle with a 6 inch ram (6/2 + 5=7 glancing only for 12 fronts)and destroy it with the rolla then continue to move. The ram must destroy the vehicle not the rolla. You can’t have it both ways. You also can’t claim it not a hull when getting shot at and at the same time disembark 2 inches from it. It either is or it is not.

I play an ork player at least every week (whembly) and in our games the deffrolla is a type of ram and is hull. Your rules may very but don’t mix them to your advantage, that’s just a bad play. I would agree that against my mechdar list kopters outflanking are a pain, very bad for Night spinners and Fire Prisms. I counter by keeping backs against edges and doing at least a 7inch shuffle every turn to ward off CC.

Icon720 wrote:Ork players need to stop insisting that rollas can hit a dodged skimmer. If a skimmer dodges, the ramming vehicle stops before it reaches the vehicle. No damage is done. The crew just sits there wondering where the skimmer went. No contact no rolla. This has continues to be argued over and over again and it makes the ork players look bad when they say they can hit a dodged skimmer, but at the same time destroy a vehicle and run through it with a rolla. This is called cake eating. Either deff rolla is the “ram” in which it can run through vehicles and miss skimmers or it’s in addition to the “ram” in which case you cannot destroy a vehicle with a 6 inch ram (6/2 + 5=7 glancing only for 12 fronts)and destroy it with the rolla then continue to move. The ram must destroy the vehicle not the rolla. You can’t have it both ways. You also can’t claim it not a hull when getting shot at and at the same time disembark 2 inches from it. It either is or it is not.

I play an ork player at least every week (whembly) and in our games the deffrolla is a type of ram and is hull. Your rules may very but don’t mix them to your advantage, that’s just a bad play. I would agree that against my mechdar list kopters outflanking are a pain, very bad for Night spinners and Fire Prisms. I counter by keeping backs against edges and doing at least a 7inch shuffle every turn to ward off CC.

This is your personal opinion, and you are welcome to it. In terms of tournament play, it depends on the TO and the rulings they use there. Another way of looking at this was partly stated by someone else in here - If a skimmer dodges, the ramming vehicle stops, and the ram causes no damage - however, the Deffrolla isn't part of the ram; and the hits on it are not required to be caused after the ram. They actually should logically be taken first, since the Deffrolla is making contact with the enemy vehicles before the hull gets there. Keep in mind that ramming is a form of tank shock, as defined by the rules and ratified by the FAQ - the Deffrolla is a tank-shock attack, not a ramming attack; and units that move out of the way of a tank-shocking battlewagon still get hit by the Deffrolla. And while a skimmer has permission to dodge a ramming attack, it doesn't have permission to dodge the tank shock - the tank shock is what CAUSES the skimmer to attempt to dodge the ram.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
OP: Couple of notes for you.

1. For your Orks: I can't emphasize enough that Lootas are critical. Either units of five or units of 15. One or the other. Maybe at least one unit of 15 and two units of five for your elite choices. Those are going to do more than anything else in your army towards taking down those Eldar skimmers. Next, instead of running a five way Deffkopta unit, keep them restricted to one. A single deffkopta with a twin-linked rokkit launcha and a buzzsaw. If you get first turn, you can scout up and make a Turn1 assault into his vehicles; otherwise you can redirect fire from your vehicles into your deffkoptas from you scouting - ignoring a STR8 missile toting, powerfist toting model in close proximity is something no one can ignore. Also....find points for a 40 point gretchin unit. You can reserve them, or deploy them.....but its the cheapest scoring unit in the game. No Ork army should be without. You shouldn't need to huddle Orks around an objective; DEY SHUD BE FIGHTINZ! Let da grotz huddle down in cover by an objective getting a 3+ cover save.


For your friends also having trouble with the Eldar player:

1. Necrons: Wraith wing is the key to victory. Lances are meaningless, all the missile launchers can't destroy a monolith, so he needs as many monoliths as he can field. Two, preferably three. Led by the Deceiver, paired with a Necron Lord with a rez orb on a destroyer body with a warscythe, who is tagging along with 9x wraiths. Eldrad can fortune himself all he likes, but here's the thing - in close combat, ICs must move into combat first. The Deceiver assaulting into Eldrad's unit means Eldrad has to move in first...and the Deceiver ignores armour and invul saves, meaning that Eldrad is going to get insta-killed from the first wound caused. Necrons are a horrific matchup for Eldar and Dark Eldar if you protect your phase-out; monoliths screening the Deceiver, wraiths and Destroyer lord from contact until they're in charge range while the monolith spits out templates or flux arcs (still gauss that glance on 6) - you can open his vehicles, but he can't actually hurt you, and wraiths are STR6 - they can do serious damage on the charge. Minimal warriors (just 20) who reserve - if its an objective game, he should walk them on from the edge, then teleport them where they need to be late in the game to hold objectives. You can't phase out what isn't on the board.

2. IG: Hydras. STR7 Autocannons that ignore cover saves granted by moving flat out - meaning that those vehicles aren't going to get a whole lot of cover saves. Tack in a manticore for popping wave serpents (unless they have spirit stones), in which case, he should focus on STR7 and STR8 weapons. Infantry platoons inside Chimeras with Autocannons. Vendettas. Wanna hear something gross? How about a vendetta outflanking (or scouting) near Eldrad - followed by a Psyker Battle Squad reducing Eldrad to LD2, and an Inquisitor forcing a leadership test (which only double 1s will save him from), and the vendetta escorting Eldrad and friends off the board.

3. Tau: Your Tau friend needs to run the onion. He can outshoot the Mechdar, and just needs to focus on it. A couple piranhas and a focus on suits, with an onion wrapping of firewarriors or Kroot protecting suits / broadsides will go a long way.

4. Blood Angels: Do you know how nasty a mechanized Blood Angel list is? We're talking triple predators, with Assault Cannon toting fast attack Baal predators, with razorbacks toting blood Angels.....and those razorbacks also toting las/plas, or assault cannons.....*shudder* A few lances or missiles from an Eldar list aren't going to begin to do enough to prevent getting annihilated.

Flavius is correct that to use a Deffrolla against a vehicle, you need to ram, and the rules state that if a skimmer successfully dodges a ram, the ramming vehicle stops 1" away.

Dash is also correct that different TOs may rule it different ways. The rules are ambiguous about how to deal with the fact that the Rolla sticks out so far from the vehicle's actual hull. That being said, the hull is supposed to be the measuring point for distances to and from the vehicle, so I suspect that the most common interpretation is going to be that a successful dodge, resulting in a 1" separation, means the Rolla does not get to hit the skimmer.

Hey, thanks all for the tips. On the rolla, I'm not pretending to be a rules expert or anything, but just think about it for a second. If a skimmer dodges an attempt to ram it, it doesn't make logical sense that the deffrolla would still magically make contact.
I know I'm talking logic not rules, but where the rules fail I think that common sense is always the best fallback.