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I have several questions that came up recently that i'd like some help with.

1. If a character on a ridden monster charges and the target chooses to stand and shoot, what happens if the monster dies?
Does he have to recalculate the charge distance using his own movement value potentially failing the charge, or is my interpretation wrong?

2. Does having your monster killed cause a panic test?
RAW seems to say no since panic is caused by loosing models and the monster isn't a separate model, but there may be some rule i'm mising.

3. We know characters on monsters can't join units, but could they join each other potentially forming a monster unit?
I'm fairly certain the answer is no, but i though i'd ask anyway.

1. I would say that you recalculate using his value, as that is what happened in 7th in this situation....

2. No, as panic is on number of models, y ou havent lost a model

3. Every character is a unit, so as you cannot join a monster mounted character to a unit you are automatically prohibited frmo joining to eachother.

So we did it all correctly, awesome i can enjoy my win now.
Sucks about my stampede list not getting to do monster herding tho

1)- p. 106- "If a Stand and Shoot reaction kills the mount during a charge, the model is replaced by a foot version of the rider and attempts to complete the charge normally (i.e. using his own Movement value and special rules rather than the mount's)

There shouldn't be any re-calculating, because stand and shoot is conducted before rolling for charge distance.

2)- You are correct.

3)- They should not be able to join. Each would be joining a monster, which they are not permitted to do.

While not strictly in the rules, I'd say take panic.
You do remove a model (guy on dragon) and replace it with another model (guy on foot).

If killing off the last 3 peasants near me might scare me, then shooting a dragon out from under me might give me pause as well. Personally, I'd take the panic test, and would applaud my opponent for doing the same. It seems in the spirit of the game, if not explicitly in the rules.

-Matt

You went from one model to one model. Show how you have reduced the number of models in the unit by at least 25%, and I will agree you take panic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You went from one model to one model. Show how you have reduced the number of models in the unit by at least 25%, and I will agree you take panic.

Here's the FAQ I am basing this off of. Note, my stand point is unit wiped out, not 25% losses.

Q: At what point after a unit has been wiped out do any characters
remaining count as having left the unit? (p101)
A: As soon as the last model from the unit has been removed,
any remaining characters will count as a new unit. Note that
8 WARHAMMER RULEBOOK
this will cause Panic tests to all friendly units within 6"
(including the newly formed unit of character(s)) as the unit
has been destroyed.

The character riding a monsters is a single model MONSTER unit. When the monster dies, it is removed and replaced with the INFANTRY character. The monster unit is dead, it was the last (and only) monster in the unit. A unit within 6" of the character was wiped out, so the character, and any other unit with in 6" should test for panic.
If you kill an abominations, but it spawns rat swarms, are you saying that it wouldn't panic anything?


The problem my read though, is the next page of the FAQ.
Q: If I kill a character but not their mount, do I score victory points
for just the character, the character and their mount, or must I kill
the mount too in order to score any victory points? (p143)
A: You must kill the character and his mount to score any
victory points.

So it looks like GW wants to treat them all as a single unit, even after one of them has died. But if that's the take on it, you run into another problem:
The problem with this is "Regrowth". If my high elf dragon lord still quasi counts as a dragon rider, can a lore of life mage regrow the downed dragon?

Finally, you'll also note in the monster section that whilst a cavalry model is teated as a single model... characters on monsters each be hit, wounded and slain individually.
I'm arguing that loss of type Monster = loss of unit, leaving a character behind. The FAQ doesn't say "attached" or "Joined" it says remaining. When the dragon dies, the character remains, and a unit that was type monster is dead.



-Matt

Hmm. Well, since the rider and the dragon are "one model", doesn't the monster unit just change into an infantry unit?

And while Nosferatu is right that you go from one model to one model, we, as reasonable minds, can't help but see that you actually go from "one" model to one model, if you get my meaning.

I think I'd probably stick by no panic, if only because someone just lost a dragon, and I don't think a fleeing character is really necessary.

Though how you can have your 30ft. dragon shot out from under you, and you keep on going is beyond me. Silliness.

So you changed the monster with rider model to an infantry model....

You still went from having one model to having one model.

ShivanAngel wrote:So you changed the monster with rider model to an infantry model....

You still went from having one model to having one model.

And one model is still dead...

Still no response on the Abomination point? It could go from 1 model to 3 models; I guess that should rally some nearby units

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:If my high elf dragon lord still quasi counts as a dragon rider, can a lore of life mage regrow the downed dragon?

Regrowth clearly states it cannot be used on characters or their mounts.

You went from a ridden monster to a character / monster. You still went from 1 model to 1 model, and the unit is not yet dead - as you point out the "character+monster" is still around, as you dont score VPs.

Edit: The HPA went from one model then died. At the end of the phase it can get back up - however it would immediately cause panic as, for a time, no models were on the table. This is a different case to shooting dofwn a monster where it is immediately replaced - there is no "duration" to take a panic check in.

I don't have any input on the panic, but I do have a question about the charge part.

Say I have a Chaos lord on a dragon, and he is fly charging into a unit 10 inches away, with an enemy unit intervening as such:

WWWW

OOOOO

....CL

Where W is the target (bowmen say), O is the intervening unit (say wardancers or something) and CL is the Chaos Lord on the dragon. It should be a legal charge, because the lord can see the bowmen as he is very tall, and can get to them because he can fly 10" on the charge and land between the units.
So he declares the charge, the bowmen stand and shoot, and Tizz giggles as they manage to kill his dragon.

Now what? Does he just fail the charge as he can no longer complete it without going through the wardancers? Can he redirect into the WD? Does he fly off the dragon in mid air like a chaos armored missile, hit the ground and perhaps bounce into the bowmen full of fury if his dice roll is sufficient to reach them? (My favored option, but only because the mental image is really funny to me.)

He fails the charge, he can't redirect unless they target flees, and he aint flying anymore.

So really he just plows into the ground like a thrown javelin, gotcha. Probably due to all the spikes :-P Lawn dart of chaos!

As above. You have no way to complete the charge using ground movement, so the charge automatically fails.