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Some things I'm unclear about:

1. for every unsaved wound caused, by any means during the combat, counts as 1 combat point.

2. no banners, charging bonuses, impact hits count towards combat resolution

3. all attacks happen in initiative order. [or alway strike first/last]

4. it can be posible, even if your champion dies, to win a challange, if you cause more wounds then your opponent.

for example, If my champion causes two wounds, leaving the oponent on 1 wound, but is then killed by the oponent, does he win combat?

Erm wining the challenge does not automaticaly win you the combat, it is just a way to score extra combat resolution from overkill, and all other CR bonuses still count.

A challenge isn't two models fighting while everyone else cheers; it's 2 models fighting as everyone else is fighting.


Any wound inflicted counts as 1 point for combat res. If it's in a challenge or not.
Banners, ranks and charging still give you combat res.

In a challenge, you can get bonus combat res for doing more wounds that your opponent has, but this bonus is capped at +5.

So if My bray shaman turns into a huge monsters and makes 24 attacks against a night goblin unit champ (with 1 wound), I could do 24 wounds in the challenge, but since the champ only had 1, he'd be worth 6 total (his 1, plus a cap of 5 more), the other 18 wounds I inflicted on him just means he's really dead. These 6 points of combat res are added to ranks, standards, charging, flanks, rears, and the normal combat of the two units whacking on each other.

If you have the sword of awesome sauce (D6+1 wounds per hit) and you hit my 6 wound treeman ancient in a challenge, You could score as many as 11 points of combat res (my 6, plus up to 5 bonus).
Again, the challenge wounds just add to the rest of the combat res.

So yes, it is very possible to lose a challenge, but win a fight. It happens quite often; a unit champ sucks up attacks from a hero, but his unit overpowers the other unit.


-Matt

Just another scenario as to "why challenge?"

Say my opponent and I are both playing Warriors of Chaos who MUST issue and accept challenges. My Exalted Hero swaggers over all by himself and charges a unit of 8 Marauders with GW's and a champ. The Hero must challenge, and the champ must accept. The Exalted Hero splatters him across the faces of his unit before the chump can even swing, doing 4 wounds. The rest of the unit doesn't get to attack at all, and just loses combat by 5 (4 from wound, 1 from charging).

People don't talk about that much, but if you can force challenge acceptance (mostly by playing vs chaos but some other tricks like no other ranks to hide in) in a smallish unit without steadfast it can be really easy to break them with lone characters (assuming you don't fluff your rolls).

I though champions didn't have eye of the gods and thus need not accept the challenge.

Wehr, while chaos champions must issue challenges they are free to refuse them, following the "Eye of the Gods" second paragraph. Perhaps this has been FAQ'd but it held in 7th AFAIK. Thus the trick of letting the chaos champ challenge and then accepting graciously with something huge and smashy.

Here's my counter example to your example:

An ogre tyrant w/ tenderizer (D3 wound great weapon) solo-charges 30 marauders (because why would there be 8?). He waits patiently for the marauder champ to pipe up, then accepts the challenge and detonates the champ for max overkill. 6 wounds + charge = 7 vs 4 (standard, 3 ranks) and the marauders are testing on steadfast. Next round, the tyrant either accepts the challenge of the next character in the unit or kills 0-6 marauders.

In your example, while the marauder champ in the remnants of his unit could in fact refuse the challenge, I think it's best to take it. Your exalted trashes the champ with overkill, but only 1 model dies instead of 4, so the 7 remaining marauders maintain steadfast. IF on the other hand the marauder player had something up their sleeve to counter the exalted with next turn, and couldn't flee with the marauders (frenzied), he could decline the challenge, lose some marauders, take a few swings back, and perhaps lose steadfast and open the exalted up to retaliation next turn.

------

Hover jumped in! But yes, it's not because they don't have the rule but because they aren't actually characters.

- Salvage

Ahhh good call both. I was just tossing out an idea off the top of my head, and picked 8 to keep the numbers simple with no rank questions, but I forgot that Champs don't have that rule standard (I am so used to the idea of them having EotG due to the Warshrine I forgot all about that).

It is interesting that only Characters have to auto accept though... That kind of adds ammo to my suspicion that GW didn't really think through the whole "Shrines give all unit champs EotG LOL!" rule. Not only does it get really awkward figuring out who put the last wound on the monster the unit smashes, but apparently the downside isn't relevant to champs, just char? Weird.

Better example: Wulfgar using his Gift of Tongues to splatter a champ in a unit of 7 Empire Knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I think vs small units you are better off challenging and trying to fight the champ as a solo, as you avoid all of the counter attacks. In my Hero vs GW example, if it was a 4x2 block for some reason, by fighting the champ you risk 2 Str 5 attacks if you fluff hard, but 7 Str 5 if you attack the unit and fluff. He might get steadfast, but if he hangs around next turn you can butcher the rest. My feeling is generally that with big characters you are best ensuring longer fights where you can throw more dice, to help even out the possibility of mega fluff. The best case would seem to be a Lord vs a unit with a mess of little bitty characters to fight. Keep winning combat (or only losing by a little if you fluff) and force continual checks. The big worry seems to be only killing 2-3, and having a hail of little attacks back overwhelming your armor and ward saves.

So, it's a good way to keep a tooled up character out of the fight.

What I'd do is issue challenges with prophetess against villeins. That'd be fun. XD

A great example is a unit champ challenging a bloodthirster

Sure he will plaster the champ all over the battlefield with his 7 attacks plus thunderstomp, but the max he can get is 6 CR, as opposed to a whopping (potential) 13 if he was attacking the unit.

This only works if the bloodthirster charged by himself.

ShivanAngel wrote:A great example is a unit champ challenging a bloodthirster

Sure he will plaster the champ all over the battlefield with his 7 attacks plus thunderstomp, but the max he can get is 6 CR, as opposed to a whopping (potential) 13 if he was attacking the unit.

This only works if the bloodthirster charged by himself.

If the blood thrister hit a unit in the front that has ranks, challenging means just he champ dies. Not challenging means 8+ guys get to swing on the blood thrister.
It all comes down to what am I fighting with, and what shape is the bloodthirster in?

If the blood thirster didn't touch the champ or characters, I'm inclined to leave them out of the fight for now, and save them for later. With my dark elves, I'll do this with assassins. Take the charge, and take some wounds; try and get a wound or two on him, then when it's looking desperate, then pop out the assassin to try and finish him. (since the assassin is ASF and init 10, he re-rolls hits every round, not just the 1st).


-Matt

That's how I see it, and it works both ways. Sometimes you don't want your char getting gang banged by a whole unit at a time, and sometimes you don't want the character killing the entire unit at once

On the subject of Challenges, let's say I have a unit with a named Lord charge a unit that has a named Lord and a Champion. If I issue a challenge to the unit, does my opponent get to pick between the named Lord and the Champion to face my named Lord?

For practical reasons (and depending on the Lord), I can see a reason for why a Champion would be chosen in this case, if my opponent is afraid of losing his named Lord. However, it would seem anti-climactic for my named Lord to stomp a 1 wound Champion to the ground, and for the opposing named Lord to just freely attack the rest of my unit without prejudice.

Thoughts?

Yes the accepting player chooses who will accept the challenge, if he refuses however the challenging player gets to pick who goes to the back.

HoverBoy wrote:Yes the accepting player chooses who will accept the challenge, if he refuses however the challenging player gets to pick who goes to the back.

That's good to know...

So the situation was this:

I have a unit of Dragon Princes with Prince Tyrion attached, that charge a unit of Clan rats that have Ikit Claw attached. When I charged, I challenged him to a fight with Tyrion. I wasn't aware of it then, but he did have a Champion in the unit along with Ikit. And while he did choose Ikit to fight Tyrion, the thought occurred to me that he could've chosen the Champion instead, leaving Ikit to fight the squad of DP's. Granted, I would've stomped the Champion to the ground easily, but it would seem (like I said before) anticlimactic for Tyrion to face a Champion when there's a much more worthy character to fight against.

At any rate, Tyrion killed Ikit in the first round, and Ikit never got to hit back. I ended up winning that CC by about 13 points, but since his unit was steadfast, they didn't fail their panic test. The next turn, on the other hand, was a very different story...

Yes, he could accept with the champ, and then you could have challenged again the next round and gotten Ikit.

Alternately, he could have refused and you could have sent Ikit to the back.

Killjoy00 wrote:Yes, he could accept with the champ, and then you could have challenged again the next round and gotten Ikit.

Alternately, he could have refused and you could have sent Ikit to the back.

Except skaven has a special rule about challenges. Being a Cowardly race, the skaven player chooses who goes to the back when they refuse a challenge.

Against any other army, you'd choose.

-Matt


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It incorrect to think that Tyrion challenges Ikit.
Tyrion charges into combat and shouts "who will face me!", and the unit champ steps (is pushed) forward.

You're not challenging a specific model, you are challenging the unit to send forward somebody to fight (champ/hero).


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Except skaven has a special rule about challenges. Being a Cowardly race, the skaven player chooses who goes to the back when they refuse a challenge.

Can you support this with a quote from your current book? I get this a lot from Skaven players, but I think it's a hold over from their last book. I read it, and all I can see is the ability to provide leadership from the back.

The friend that I played never brought this up either. If it is indeed in the codex though, I too would like to know.

Nope cant see that either, it's just leadership.

You're thinking of the OLD version of Verminous Valour. Now all that happens is that the Skaven heros / lords can still Lead, i.e. give leadership, when at the back.

They hit it with the nerf bat in the current codex....

Red_Zeke wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Except skaven has a special rule about challenges. Being a Cowardly race, the skaven player chooses who goes to the back when they refuse a challenge.

Can you support this with a quote from your current book? I get this a lot from Skaven players, but I think it's a hold over from their last book. I read it, and all I can see is the ability to provide leadership from the back.

Not at all, I'm quoting what skaven players have told me.

-Matt

Skaven do get to choose who goes to the back, also they still get to use their leadership, this isnt nerfed since 8ed rules are that the only thing a character refusing a challenge cant do is give his leadership to the unit.

I am that skaven player and NO. I get to use my ld in the back that is it. if i refuse a challenge you pick who goes to the back.

oops...
You look mad. Are you mad? He's mad.

He's not mad, he's just telling you you're wrong.

Leith wrote:Skaven do get to choose who goes to the back.

Proof please, a page ref and/or quote would be best.

Verminuous Valor (p.33): "...the model is placed in the back rank as normal, however, the unit may still use the Skaven character's Ld or Battle Standard..."

Benshin, it might be anti-climactic, but that's what the Skaven are all about. Why would Ikit Claw, the most ingenious engineer of the Under Empire, risk injury or even death at the hands of such a low creature? His genius must be preserved!

Furthermore, I think this could apply to pretty much any wizard character. Why would a Skin Priest or a Prophetess of the Lady except a challenge from a fully armed and armoured knight?
You could make the argument when a champion accepts instead of, say, a Chaos or Brettonian Lord, but I think it's pretty legit to refuse a challenge. Especially when the guy challenging you is mounted on an armoured charger, and is bearing down on your position at 45 miles an hour. Oh, and is also Tyrion.