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Just starting with the black templars codex and wondering if anybody has a list they wouldnt mind sharing to help of a novice BT's player? any and all help appreciated

A - take a look at my lists in thread "Starting Black Templars Army".

B - THink of a theme for the army. Is it led by a chaplain or marshal or castellan?

C Is it a close combat army (Furious Charge, loads of power weapons, flamers, a hint of melta), or a very gun heavy army (Terminator Command Squads with double assault cannons????)

D What points limits are you thinking of?

Yea Corennus' thread was spammed with a nice plethora of different BT list types, you can look there for inspiration. Still, we'd like to here what kind of a list and at what points limit you are looking for, so we can help you out a little more.

Sorry right, most of the games we play are 1750, and i play chaos alot so im used to having shooty armies and cc armies, so it doesnt matter, im likely to spin it to what i like as well im just looking for advice or something i can fiddle around with, although full lists are appreciated as well

When playing BT you have to really look at what is most worthwhile in the codex. If you aren't using those units, then it's probably best to use the BA, SM, or SW books. For Black Templars these consist of 6 things:

1) Terminator Squads with 2x Assault Cannons and Tank Hunters
2) Terminator Assault Squads with Furious Charge
3) The Old Drop Pod Rules
4) Neophytes to help soak up wounds
5) Marshal's granting Ld 10 to the entire army
6) The Golden One - Accept Any Challenge granting re-rolls to the entire army

The most common Black Templar builds include the Black Horde, Mech Templar and Drop Templar. The most common crusader squad layout equips them with meltaguns and power fists. The rest of the units are pretty comparable to other books, and its worthwhile to note that we can give Power of the Machine Spirit to any vehicle giving us good vindi's.

Thats very true, out of pure morbid curiosity, wth do you do with the empras champ at game start, he cant be in a vehicle (no ded trans and he cant join squads) and its pointless to have him offfield cause he cant deepstrike, so what do you do with him?

I'm pretty sure the way his rule is worded it implies that he can't have a squad of his own, like a command squad, but being an IC he can join any other squad. If I've been mistaken all these years then you can still stick him in a land raider, but 99% of the time you can stick him in a Rhino w/ a Crusader Squad and no player or tournament will tell you no

Tyranic Marta wrote:Thats very true, out of pure morbid curiosity, wth do you do with the empras champ at game start, he cant be in a vehicle (no ded trans and he cant join squads) and its pointless to have him offfield cause he cant deepstrike, so what do you do with him?

The EC can join crusader squads, just not command squads. Page 31 details this saying that he can never join or lead a command squad. Nothing about other squads though, which is why most people "hide" him in a 9 man rhino squad.

ooooook that explains alot, thanks

ok you're set at 1750 points. same as me!

That kinda means double landraider spam is out of the window, so you need to find a way to get enough anti-tank in your list without losing too much assault potential.

I will say this:
Don't be overly tempted by Terminators. Lightning Claw terminators with Furious Charge is NASTY, but still 215 points. for that amount of points you can get some Heavy Support tanks or another troop choice which will give you more firepower/scoring units.

Crusader Seals are your friend. You only need one per squad to keep them from Righteous Zealing too far into the nearest enemy.

Vows are a GOOD THING.
Suffer not the Unclean to Live:
Every unit gets a str bonus but -1 initiative. Ok so your guys will be at initiative 3 in CC (troops), but striking at Str 5, which means T5 opponents die on a 4+ again, and powerfists can PENETRATE AV 14 (Str 9)

Uphold the Honour of the Emperor. MOVE ON SWIFTLY

Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch.
My current fave. Every unit (if there's a psyker in enemy army) makes a consolidate (D6") move towards nearest enemy unit in sight. Any psychic power is nullified on a roll of 5+.

Accept Any Challenge No Matter the Odds.
If the squad can charge into an enemy and assault them they MUST do so.
But, EVERY unit in the army gets Preferred Enemy (except tanks and transports), so lots of re-rolls to hit!.

Corennus wrote:Crusader Seals are your friend. You only need one per squad to keep them from Righteous Zealing too far into the nearest enemy.

Pity you have to buy Crusader Seals for the entire unit... Oh, and if you don't want to move, you don't have to, it's a consolidate move, it's up to D6 inches.

Corennus wrote:



Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch.
My current fave. Every unit (if there's a psyker in enemy army) makes a consolidate (D6") move towards nearest enemy unit in sight. Any psychic power is nullified on a roll of 5+.

Just a little addition. All psychic powers that target a templar unit are nullified. This means that nullzone, fortune, guide, catalyst etc. won't be nullified.

About crusader seals, I pondered and reflected on the subject for quite a while a few weeks ago. Are you guys sure you have to buy them for the entire squad? The wording is different to krak and frag grenades.

There are 2 vows you will use. Accept any challenge... if you have the points, abhor the witch if you don't. They are the best vows. Regarding list types, at 1750 you can do alot of different lists.

To prove dual raider can work at 1750, here's a list:

Emperor's Champion with Accept any challenge... @ 140pts.

Marshal with Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon @ 82pts.

5 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws, Furious Charge @ 215pts.

5 Assault Terminators with Lightning Claws, Furious Charge @ 215pts.

5 Crusaders with Lascannon, Plasmagun @ 101pts.

5 Crusaders with Lascannon, Plasmagun @ 101pts.

5 Crusaders with Lascannon, Plasmagun @ 101pts.

5 Crusaders with Lascannon, Plasmagun @ 101pts.

5 Crusaders with Lascannon, Plasmagun @ 101pts.

5 Crusaders with Flamer @ 86pts.

Land Raider with Smoke Launchers @ 253pts.

Land Raider with Smoke Launchers @ 253pts.


All crusaders have pistols and ccws. Marshal and Emp. Champ can go with the flamer crusaders or scatter to reduce kill points per squad. Regular Land Raiders lose frag launchers, so you could consider taking crusaders, but tbh, crusaders are weapon wise kinda meh, and I prefer the godhammer. You still have str5 re roll everything on your termies.

haizelhoff wrote:
About crusader seals, I pondered and reflected on the subject for quite a while a few weeks ago. Are you guys sure you have to buy them for the entire squad? The wording is different to krak and frag grenades.

I strongly believe that you do not have to give the entire squad Crusader Seals if you chose them as an option. The confusion I think comes from the fact that they are called Crusader Seals (Plural). However the Emperors Champion is equipped with Crusader Seals even though he is a single model. If it was referred to as "a Crusader Seal" it would be far more obvious that you can pick and chose who takes them. Anyway since it does not say "The entire squad excluding any Neophytes added may take Crusader Seals at +2 points per model", you don't have to give the entire squad the upgrade.

Then when you read the rules for the Crusader Seals. It says clearly that if a model with crusader seals is part of a unit (not has joined a unit, but does not exclude this) then the entire unit is affected by the model with Crusader Seals. When it comes to grenades and such, it only effects the models with the grenades.

In reply about Abhor the Witch:
(quoted from codex)

any psychic powers targeted against any Black Templars unit or character (or which includes them in its area of effect) are nullified and will not work on a D6 roll of a 5+

Therefore:
Null Zone, Guide, Catalyst, Fortune etc CAN be nullified because they will be in the AREA OF EFFECT the BT unit is in.

Oh, wait I must have missed that. That allows you to nullify nullzone which is sweet, but powers like catalyst and guide still work.

LordofSteel wrote:

haizelhoff wrote:
About crusader seals, I pondered and reflected on the subject for quite a while a few weeks ago. Are you guys sure you have to buy them for the entire squad? The wording is different to krak and frag grenades.

I strongly believe that you do not have to give the entire squad Crusader Seals if you chose them as an option. The confusion I think comes from the fact that they are called Crusader Seals (Plural). However the Emperors Champion is equipped with Crusader Seals even though he is a single model. If it was referred to as "a Crusader Seal" it would be far more obvious that you can pick and chose who takes them. Anyway since it does not say "The entire squad excluding any Neophytes added may take Crusader Seals at +2 points per model", you don't have to give the entire squad the upgrade.

It says that all initiates can be given Crusader Seals at X points per model, it doesn't say any initiate. Therefore, you're restricted to either none or all of them.

LordofSteel wrote:Then when you read the rules for the Crusader Seals. It says clearly that if a model with crusader seals is part of a unit (not has joined a unit, but does not exclude this) then the entire unit is affected by the model with Crusader Seals. When it comes to grenades and such, it only effects the models with the grenades.

The rules specify that because every single IC in the book, even the Techmarine, has Crusader Seals. Thus, when you join a unit, the unit doesn't have to buy seals themselves.

Thats an interesting point, thanks for all of this its just that to me the bt's felt a bit sub par cause of the configs of troops they could take but all good now if any other tips please feel free

First of all, yes Abhor the Witch will allow you to nullify Nullzone because it effects a Templar unit, which is pretty sweet for our Termies that don't get a 3++ option.

Second, that list is horrid. Haizelhoff, you're wasting points on AACNMTO; the only units that will be in CC are the Assault Termies. Bolt Pistol/CCW on the crusaders are meh considering you're using the squads as firing platforms, better to equip all w/Bolters so if an enemy does come in close you can shoot them to death before they touch you. And with so many las shots there is no need to bring LRs vs. LRCs exspecially since the LRCs bring more anti-infantry. Over-all you should drop the Marshal(who is doing nothing btw), drop the 5 crusaders w/flamer, pick up a couple Chaplains, and drop the vow to Abhor. It will give you safety against psyker models while still giving you the same re-rolls to hit with your termies.

Now as for our sub-par troops, yes and no at the same time. Absolutely no variety, however when combined with our excellent ICs they make for some of the most potent CC units in the game. The EC aside, take a look at our Techmarines for example: Give them a full harness and Termy Honours. The model is 5 PowerWeapon attacks on the charge, re-roll failed hits, and then smacks with 2 powerfist attacks, also with re-rolls to hit; in the Shooting Phase he provides the squad with a twinlinked plasma pistol and a flamer. He is a cool 120 points, which is less than a dread with upgrades. If nothing else he can fix their ride when it takes a lascannon shot to its tracks.

thats a really good point, although i tend to stay away from techpriests simply because i dont like em, ive played chaos for a coupla years now and i havent even touched half the named ic's, im more inclined to take a terminator dude with an honour termie squad (Not quite sure of exact names cant be arsed getting of my butt to get the codex) i think its a marshal, and a sword brethren teminator command squad

It states in the codex that if you give a Crusader Seal to one initiate in a squad the whole squad can benefit from it. Therefore the argument that you have to take Crusader Seals for everyone is defunct.

Please be aware that Terminator Castellan (cheapest options possible) is 90 points. The cheapest Terminator Command Squad is 160 points (3 terminators + sergeant).

Now a properly kitted out Command Squad and Castellan may look like this:

Castellan
Iron Halo
Terminator Armour
Combi-Melta
Master Crafted Power Sword
Melta Bombs
165

Terminator Command Squad (4 man)
Tank Hunters
Assault Cannons x 2
Combi-Melta
Melta Bombs
Chainfists x 2
237

402 points for 5 units that may be taken out before they can do anything, and not benefiting from the Vows the Emperor's Champion can give (Accept Any Challenge???)

Now consider dropping the Command Squad and taking a normal Assault Terminator Squad and Castellan with the Vow Accept Any Challenge....

Castellan
Artificer Armour
Combat Shield
Plasma Pistol
Master Crafted Power Sword
Melta Bombs
140

Terminator Assault Squad (5 man)
x 3 LC, x 2 TH/SS
Furious Charge
215

Now playing to BT strengths. Given a Land Raider Crusader this unit (along with the Emperor's Champion) can charge into the enemy all at I5 (all striking first against most armies!) at Str 5/6, even able to take on vehicles.

Terminator Command Squads (even with the lure of Tank Hunters and double assault cannons/cyclones) in my opinion, are overcosted for the benefits they bring.

Corennus wrote:

Terminator Command Squads (even with the lure of Tank Hunters and double assault cannons/cyclones) in my opinion, are overcosted for the benefits they bring.

Absolutely. Only take terminator command squads if your elite slots are already full.

Corennus wrote:It states in the codex that if you give a Crusader Seal to one initiate in a squad the whole squad can benefit from it. Therefore the argument that you have to take Crusader Seals for everyone is defunct.

Verbatum from the codex:"All Initiates in the squad may take crusader seals at a cost of +2 points per model. Note that Neophytes may not be given crusader seals."
This means that if one Initiate selects seals, they must ALL select seals at +2 points per model.

However, quoting the entry for seals:"If a model with crusader seals is part of a unit then this applies to the whole unit, not just to the model with the crusader seals"
THIS means that it only takes one initiate model left with crusader seals(the rest being killed) for the neophytes to continue benefiting from seals. It also means that if no member in the squad has seals, but the squad is joined by an Independent Character, they will all benefit from said character's seals.

As to the termy HQ with "honour guard" sword brethren command squad idea, it's not that bad. Consider the facts:
1)They do still benefit from the vow, and coupled with TankHunters they can take out a superheavy in one charge.
2)With that build of course they're wasted points. Why the @#$% would you put a mastercrafted sword on the commander? He allready rerolls failed hits!
3)Termies can't take meltabombs.
4)An Iron Halo? He allready has a 5++ so why waste 25 points that could be spent elsewhere. Only put an Iron Halo on a termy model if you have spare points floating around.

Now I'ld rebuild that HQ selection to:

Castellan
-Termy Armour
-LCs
--120
TermyCommandSquad
-4xTermies
-2xAssaultCannon
-5xTankHunters
-1xChainfist
--220

There are some options, like the Castellan doesn't need LCs, Combi-Melta works fine but is a one-trick pony. You could hand him a PowerFist or Thunderhammer, making the most of his base attacks but making him strike at Int1. Would only recommend a THammer if you know you're gonna be facing Walkers, like a Kan wall army or Dreadnaught spam(Vanilla/BA).

Now remember the unit's roles. Our assault termies are for anti-infantry. Str5 Int5 LCs rerolling failed hits and wounds? The unit they're in CC with are gonna die. However, the Termy command squad is more anti-vehicle. 8 Str7 Rending shots. A bunch of Str9 in CC. The Castellan and Sgt are there in case the inevitable happens, and they are charged by or charge themselves into CC with infantry. The chainfist does two things:1)Knocks out walkers almost guarenteed, and 2)Adds variety for wound allocation.
So this squad would be DSing behind/beside the enemy and tearing up their armour the moment they hit ground. Remember that a single AssaultCannon has a better chance to pen AV14 than a lascannon thanks to rend, and with TankHunters you will at least glance when you rend it.

Also, why would you give your Castellan ArtificerArmour and CombatShield in the first place unless it's a fluff character. Myself I enjoy a fluffy unit on the table but if not that, then you're really wasting points on him with the armour, shield, and mastercrafted sword.

Thats a really nice squad, i usually play chaos so im used to the whole, 4 with claws one with reaper/flamer and chainfist, but that is really really nice, think ill be taking that in future thanks

At 1750 points you shouldn't be taking Command Squads AND Elites. It's too much points for not enough return.

You need at least 3 Crusader squads to ensure you have enough Troops coverage, and long range firepower from Heavy Support tanks like Destructors.

However, if you ARE determined to take Command Squads may I suggest you use the Vow Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch.

Possible list for you (keeping points down)

HQ

Castellan
Terminator Armour
Bionics
Combi-Melta
Power Sword
Melta Bombs
130

Castellan
Terminator Armour
Bionics
Combi-Melta
Power Sword
Melta Bombs
130

Terminator Command Squad (4 man)
Assault Cannons x 2
Chainfist x 2
Tank Hunters
222

Terminator Command Squad (4 man)
Assault Cannons x 2
Chainfist x 2
Tank Hunters
222

Emperor's Champion
Vow: Abhor the Witch, Destroy the Witch
110

TROOPS

Crusader Squad (6 man)
Initiates x 6
Flamer
Crusader Seal
Frag Grenades x 3
DT: Razorback w/ Smoke Launchers & Dozer Blade & EA
191

Crusader Squad (6 man)
Initiates x 6
Flamer
Crusader Seal
Frag Grenades x 4
DT: Razorback w/ Smoke Launchers & Dozer Blade & EA
192


Crusader Squad (5 man)
Initiates x 5
Flamer
Crusader Seal
Frag Grenades x 4
DT: Razorback w/ Smoke Launchers & Dozer Blade & EA
172

HEAVY SUPPORT

Predator Destructor
Lascannon Sponsons
Smoke Launchers
127

Predator Destructor
Lascannon Sponsons
Smoke Launchers
127

Predator Destructor
Lascannons Sponsons
Smoke Launchers
127

1750



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Beauty of this list:

Razorbacks mean you can still keep the enemy's heads down with Heavy Bolter fire while advancing.

When time is right the two Castellans Deep Strike in with their Command Squads to blast tanks and heavy infantry.

Destructors keep up long range support with lascannons blasting AV 11 - 13 from afar.

That is NAAAAASSSTY, i like it, i take it the crusader squads are getting into cc and the destructors wipe tanks, the termies deepstrike with castellans and get stuck into their backline and the emp champ rides with one of the six man squads of crusaders?

Thank you! glad you liked it.

Emp Champion rides with the 5 man Crusader Squad in the last razorback.

The Crusader Squads are advancing, using the Heavy Bolters to take out infantry as much as possible before they get out and deliver flamer death.

The Terminator squads, as you said, teleport into the back line and blow up some tanks or the enemy HQ. They might survive, they might not. Depends on that 5+ Inv Save.

The Destructors should be firing lascannons every turn, but have smoke launchers if the enemy bring a lot of anti-tank (forego a turn shooting for a 4+ cover save)

Also remember if the enemy has a psyker you get a free D6" move before the game starts, so deploy wisely. And any psyker power that affects your units can be nullified on a 5+!

Whoops missed the razor backs, (used to chaos (rhinos)) but yup all good, very very good

I agree, you shouldn't take a command squad and elites at 1750, however the squad I posted was if he was taking a command squad because he was asking about one.

Now as for your list, while it isn't bad there are some problems:
1)Models in termy armour cannot take meltabombs. Take 5pts from your castellans right there.
2)The ENTIRE UNIT must take frags if you give crusaders frags.
3) The point cost of smokes is 3pts, your predators need to cost one more each.
3)Crusader seals, again like the frags, must be purchased for the entire unit, not just one model.
4)a)You realize that the entry for SB Termy Command squad states that "A model with a powerfist may upgrade it to a chainfist for 5pts." This means that with your build one of the guys with an assault cannon has a chainfist, not the sergeant which I'm sure you had intended it to go on, because he has a powerweapon; 2 with ACs and 2 with chainfists right? As is it's 1 with AC, 1 with AC and chainfist, 1 with chainfist, and the sergeant with powerweapon
b)No matter what you intended, their point cost is wrong: 4xtermies at 40 each. 2xACs at 20 each. 2xChainfists at 5 each. TankHunters may be purchased for the entire squad, including attached characters at 3 a model.
160+40+10+15=225
Now however if you DID intend to have the sergeant with a chainfist AND his basic powerweapon, that would be an additional 20 points, rounding the squad out to 245. If you are going to give the sergeant the fist but it was me, I would rather stick the chainfist onto the castellan replacing his powerweapon you gave him for only 15 points more, considering he has more base attacks and higher WS than the termies.
5)Our smoke launchers work differently, we don't get a 4+ coversave. Any penetrating hits are instead reduced to glancing. With that in mind, save 3 points a model and drop the launchers from your preds, considering most glancing is reduced to a 1-2, meaning you won't be shooting the next turn. Better to shoot one last time and take something out than sit there with your thumb up your @#$.

How do you plan on taking out any AV that your crusaders face? Without taking AACNMTO your small squads aren't likely to win any assault, and wont win against a walker. Considering the Razorbacks are only able to move 6" and still shoot their HeavyBolters means your squads are going slower across the field than if they were on foot. And with you taking Abhor the Witch, it's better to use crusaders like their contemperary vanilla marines, and just give them all bolters. Stick a plasma gun instead of a flamer and they at least have a chance against AV and can kill infantry more reliably, and even at range.

Also, while I agree you need at least 3 troops, I disagree with how you go about it. Better to drop one of the preds, downgrade to rhinos, and stick more men in each squad. It will make each squad more survivable, they will move forward faster, and be in just as safe of a tincan than before. Plus being in rhinos they can do drive-by's with their plasmaguns vs hopping out of the razorbacks.

that sounds a bit better i was wondering about the smoke entry as well but that confirms it thanks, omt if i was thinking about taking land raiders is there any way to fit them in or am i best just dropping them?

You can take one max. 2 land raiders is almost impossible in less than 2000 points due to their cost.

Frag Grenades....you have to take them all or not at all?
THAT SUCKS.
I can't see how that works, since Crusader Seals can be taken by one model but affect the entire squad (Per Codex: "If a model with Crusader Seals is part of a unit then this ability applies to the whole unit, not just to the model with the Crusader Seals"), but you can't do same for grenades???

Anyway, as for the rest yes I see where stuff went wrong.

Ah....I missed that Tank Hunters / Furious Charge can be given to HQ too!




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think the thing with Crusader Seals is that all models in the unit MAY take Crusader Seals, but do not HAVE to.