Splitting attacks [Ogres]

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**QuietOrkmi**

Currently with 2 Ogre battalion boxes and 2 slave giants, I have managed 3000 points only by converting 6 of the ogres (4 bulls, 2 Ironguts) into 4 Heroes and 2 Lords...

I was wondering what other people thought of having so many characters in a 3000 point army...

I was thinking of having the units formed such that only one ogre can be attacked in HTH while 1-2 characters siphoned off attacks...

Bull _ Hero _ Hero
Bull _ Bull _ Bull

Irongut _ Hero
Irongut _ Irongut

I was wondering what you guys thought of this...

**HawaiiMatt**

I think you should play 2,000 to 2400 point games.
IMO, rank and file ogres are a lot better than bruisers and hunters.

Even in large games, I take 3-4 characters. (tyrant, slaughtermasters always, sometimes a BSB and butcher, but not always).

3 Ironguts > 1 Bruiser. More heroes is a worse army.

-Matt

**QuietOrkmi**

While with stats alone, 3 Ironguts > 1 Bruiser, does magic items change that?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I was wondering if buying another battalion box would help?

**Captain Solon**

yes. yes.... yesssss.... buy mooore battalions, young one. MOOORE BATTALIONS..... -hisssss-

IMHO
no matter what army you're playing, having so many heroes and lords that they could form a sizable regiment is usually bad.

I'd say 1 lord [hey, those guys are expensive.] 2 heroes and then get more and more R&F ogres.

those guys'd do alot better.

remember, in this game:

quality<quantity.>

**QuietOrkmi**

For Ogres at 3000 points a slaughter-master seems kinda mandatory for dispelling at the very least...

So that would be about 600 for lords and about 205 for the BSB along with another 180 for an extra butcher... What do you guys think about that?

**Boss Salvage**

Tyrant + Slaughtermaster + BSB + Butcher seems pretty standard to me for 2500+ games. I'm looking to run just Big T + SM + BSB myself, really dislike the bloat of characters that ogres can get so quickly.

As to your suggested tactic, keep in mind that if you have command models they must occupy the front rank. So both of your examples would work, but only if those units didn't have 2+ command models.

- Salvage

**HawaiiMatt**

QuietOrkmi wrote:While with stats alone, 3 Ironguts > 1 Bruiser, does magic items change that?

Yeah, it does change it.
4 Iron Guts > 1 Bruiser with magic gear.

Seriously, show me a bruiser that's better than 12 S6 attacks (and 4 S4 impact, + stomps).

Don't even get me started on huntards.

-Matt

**nosferatu1001**

Except in combat you simply "make way!" and put the characters in the front.

**HawaiiMatt**

Boss Salvage wrote:Tyrant + Slaughtermaster + BSB + Butcher seems pretty standard to me for 2500+ games. I'm looking to run just Big T + SM + BSB myself, really dislike the bloat of characters that ogres can get so quickly.

As to your suggested tactic, keep in mind that if you have command models they must occupy the front rank. So both of your examples would work, but only if those units didn't have 2+ command models.

- Salvage

As was recently pointed out to me; the characters can just go in the 2nd rank, and then make way to the front as soon as combat starts.

-Matt

**QuietOrkmi**

So I noticed that ogres have a strangely difficult time with Rank and File as they are steadfast most of the time. Other than grind the rank and File down with our attacks, is there anything else I could do to quickly break them?

**Oscarius**

Grind them some more?

Honestly, ogres don't make good "huge" units, they usally only have +1 rank bonus, +2 tops. You can't get around that you need to grind rank and files down.
But look it in a positive light, when you grind them down they still have to pass the break test (steadfast is only stubborn, it can be failed), and they aren't shooting at you.

**Boss Salvage**

HawaiiMatt wrote:As was recently pointed out to me; the characters can just go in the 2nd rank, and then make way to the front as soon as combat starts.

You have a page reference for this, Matt? It's not how I've read the unit command section, and it allows for shenanigans where the entire front rank of a unit is loaded with characters (night gob heroes? skaven chieftains?), allowing the unit to not be attaked - which IMO is against the spirit of the rules and implicitly forbidden by the placement of command. (Though obviously units without command can still do this, and especially ogres. 1 maneater with ninja tyrant in front, anyone?)

- Salvage

**nosferatu1001**

Page reference? The very specific "Make Way!" rule overrides the more general rules regfarding placement of command models. Thus it takes precedence.

**Boss Salvage**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Page reference? The very specific "Make Way!" rule overrides the more general rules regfarding placement of command models. Thus it takes precedence.

"You can exchange him with rank-and-file model(s), including the command group, that are in base contact with the enemy" (100)

^ That's a page reference. I'm not entirely happy that that rule exists but ah well, such is 8th. Carry on talking about ogre characters vs ogre infantry, lads.

- Salvage

**Ipphli**

Actually I don't think characters can be placed in the 2nd rank unless the front rank is filled with command. The Make Way rule is meant for when the character is on one side of the line, and the enemy is in BtB with the other side. Then the Character moves over for free.

Or if the unit is hit in the flank or rear, he's allowed to move there. But the characters still have to be placed in the front rank unless its taken up by command (something that can happen easily with ogres).

**HoverBoy**

Ipphli wrote:Actually I don't think characters can be placed in the 2nd rank unless the front rank is filled with command. The Make Way rule is meant for when the character is on one side of the line, and the enemy is in BtB with the other side. Then the Character moves over for free.

Or if the unit is hit in the flank or rear, he's allowed to move there. But the characters still have to be placed in the front rank unless its taken up by command (something that can happen easily with ogres).

The "making way to another rank" subrule found on the "make way" rule's page disagrees with you compleetly.

**Ipphli**

How so? The last line even says that once the unit is no longer in close combat, the characters 'automatically return to the front rank of their unit' Sounds like characters are still meant to be in the front.

**HoverBoy**

Because the diagram clearly shows a thane in the second rank, and the rule says you can do it even if the front rank isn't full. Having the character fight is simply more important.

**Ipphli**

The Thane goes from the front rank to the second rank because the unit got charged in the flank. But he started in the front rank. And none of the wording says characters can start in anything but the front rank, just move to a different rank in response to a charge.

**Red_Zeke**

Ipphli, I don't think anyone is saying that (barring "make way" moves) you can place characters to the back if the front isn't filled by command.

The only place that might be possible is if you are reading HawaiiMatt's post, and then only out of context with the rest of the thread.

I actually think you and HoverBoy are arguing from the same standpoint. I think.

**Grey Templar**

Here is why Characters can go in the 2nd rank.

Characters must always be put in the front rank and displace a normal RnF model while doing so.

However!!!

Musicions, Banner bearers, and Champions are not normal RnF and may not be displaced by characters, with the exception of "make way"

Make Way is an OPTIONAL move. characters arn't obliged to move in this way and can't do so if they are already in contact with the enemy.

if you have an Ogre unit that is 3 wide and has Full command you can force all characters to the 2nd rank.

i don't like to do this except with my Butchers as they are too valuable to risk.

Big units are good for ogres. our T5 characters can be in the front and use their high Toughness to absorb enemy attacks and allow the Bulls to engage with supporting attacks.

i have been rocking a Bullstar lately and it has lost once out of 8 games(a combonation of a really unlucky Dwellers rolling and the Blade of Realaties)

it is 27 bulls with Ifs and a bellower.

Tyrant with Mawseeker, Tricksters Helm, Healing potion, and CLS,

BSB with Mawseeker, Banner of Disipline, and a CLS,

Slaughtermaster with Bloodcleaver and Wyrdstone necklace,

and a Butcher with Grut's Sickle.

6 wide, 5 deep of ogre goodness.

i usually end the game with only 4-6 bulls left plus the characters, but that is the result of Flank attacks(and you will be flanked) and they are still alive while the enemy will be dead.

Bullstars with characters play the Wound allocation game very well. your enemy will be attempting to hit your WS6-7, T5-6(more if you have Toothcracker up) characters instead of your more squishy bulls and will be getting all the attacks back in return for very little gain.