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So here's what I'm thinking. Feel free to tear it to shreds

HQ
Wolf Lord- Thunder Wolf, Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Talisman, Power Fist, Saga of the Bear 260
Wolf Lord- Thunder Wolf, Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Talisman, Wolf Claw, Saga of the Warrior Born 250
Wolf Guard Battle Leader- Thunder Wolf, Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Talisman, Thunder Hammer, Saga of Majesty 215
Wolf Guard Battle Leader- Thunder Wolf, Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Wolf Tooth Talisman, Power Fist, 195

Troops
5 Grey Hunters- Melta Gun 80
Rhino 35
5 Grey Hunters- Melta Gun 80
Rhino 35
5 Grey Hunters- Melta Gun 80
Rhino 35

Fast Attack
4 Thunder Wolves- 1 BP CCW Storm Shield, 1 BP CCW melta bomb Storm Shield, 1 BP CCW mark of the wulfen Storm Shield, 1 BP Power fist storm shield 355

Heavy
5 Long Fangs- 4 Missiles 115
5 Long Fangs- 4 Missiles 115

1850 exactly

Well, you stick almost 1000 pts into 4 models riding on Thunder Wolves.
Looks too specialized to me to deal with all enemies.

What does it struggle against? That's an honest question, I'm not trolling. Everytime I compare it to even the most obscure lists you'd see at a tournament I can't see it struggling too hard.

I have a buddy who plays with a list very similar to that and he does quite well. I would use Razorbacks instead of Rhinos would be my only comment.

It struggles against any mobile lists that can run away from your Thunderwolves while blowing up your Grey Hunters. Once your scoring units are down they can just feed you a pinning unit and run off to hold objectives.

The problem is it's relatively one dimensional and the only ranged firepower you have is 8 missiles.

Looks good but I dont like the Wolfgard battle leaders i would drop one and upgrade the other to a wolf lord or drop the fist on the last one upgrade the 3ed to a wolf lord. I would whant the extra attack and wound tbh

Couple of problems with the list first of all. WGBL cannot take Saga of Majesty, the Wolf Lord with claw is 5 points more than what you have listed, WGBL with powerfist is not unique he's the same as the Lord with Saga of the bear because the have the same wargear (Adding a saga does not make them unique under The leaders of the pack pg 91). Additionally, I'm guessing you mean wolf tail talismans and not wolf tooth necklaces.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Couple of problems with the list first of all. WGBL cannot take Saga of Majesty, the Wolf Lord with claw is 5 points more than what you have listed, WGBL with powerfist is not unique he's the same as the Lord with Saga of the bear because the have the same wargear (Adding a saga does not make them unique under The leaders of the pack pg 91).

^^Lone Dragoon is correct, I did not notice that until he pointed it out.

I think it would struggle heavily against a lot of the DE lists out there. Especially ones fielding 4-10 venoms. Could be a lot of fun though. I'm considering a BA army w/20 Tactical Terminators though so what do I know

Ok thank you guys for pointing that out. I did this whole list without the book, so I wasn't sure if everything was correct. Anyway to fix the issue I can remove the Saga of the warrior born, and make him majesty. That saves me 20 points, 5 of which have to be spent to fix the legality problem. So, 15 points which can make the wolf lord and the battle leader different.

Anyway onto the problems with the list.

@Aldarionn- In multi objective games, I can reserve my rhinos making killing them signifigantly harder. Also how exactly do most armies out run thunder wolf can? I mech eldar can I guess, but then theyre not shooting me, and I can split the unit up to hit multiple things at once. Dark eldar will have issues running away due to the long fangs. If they aren't shooting me they're dying. Nothing else is really fast enough.

@Hulk- everytime I even think of a list like that I just discoutn because of how bad it is but good luck to you. As far as venoms, they could mess me up. But each lord has a 2+ which kind of helps, and the long fans can bring down a good number of venoms if they aren't dead.

Nothing else is really fast enough.

How about Nob Bikers?

I think it would struggle heavily against a lot of the DE lists out there. Especially ones fielding 4-10 venoms. Could be a lot of fun though. I'm considering a BA army w/20 Tactical Terminators though so what do I know

This list looks very interesting.

Nob Bikers arent trying to run away from me, and if they are they will hit the edge of the table soon enough. On the charge I wipe out a nob squad after sweeping them. Then I should, be able to take the charge from one squad. I haven't done the math, but they're getting hit with 16 S 10 attacks when I get charged.

You would benefit greatly from dropping one of the Wolf Guard Battle Leaders for another pack of Long Fangs and a Razorback to get them on the board in Dawn of War.

You can further drop ~70 points in wargear from the Thunderwolves as Mark of the Wulfen is a waste on them as well as having all 4 with Storm Shields. With Wound Allocation it isn't necessary to have that many Storm Shields. With the Points saved that's almost another Lazorback for your Long Fangs to keep them mobile for Dawn of War and also to pop transports for you to eat squishies. These changes will mitigate armies running away and help with your overall force.

Naysayers of 3 small Grey Hunter units should realize there have been multiple armies to do well with compulsory troop choices only.

Giving them all storm shields takes them from the realm of solid to ridiculous in terms of survivability. It makes them a death star, sintead of just a good unit. Lazorbacks are nice but not necessary. I would like to try and get a third long fang squad in though.

Without changing the list too much, I feel you're better off taking this route if you want to run the TWC deathstar.

Wolf Lord- SS, Runic Armor, Wolf tail talisman, Wolf Claw, Thunderwolf, Saga of Majesty- 235
Wolf Lord- SS, Runic Armor, Wolf tail talisman, Thunderhammer, Thunderwolf, Saga of The bear- 265
WGBL- - SS, Wolf tail talisman, Wolf Claw, Thunderwolf, Saga of the warrior born- 205
WGBL- - SS, Meltabombs, Wolf Claw, Thunderwolf- 170

Troops

Grey Hunters- Melta Rhino- 115 points
Grey Hunters- Melta Rhino- 115 points
Grey Hunters- Melta Rhino- 115 points

Fast Attack

4 TWC- 285
SS, WC
SS
MB
Nothing special

Heavy Support
Long Fangs- 4ML- 115 points
Long Fangs- 4ML- 115 points
Long Fangs- 4ML- 115 points

It really doesn't play any different than your normal list, except that the WGBL don't get the 2+ armor save. Instead using the points saved on those (40 total) the 15 saved from before, and the loss of 2 storm shields in the TWC (60 points) you now gain a third squad of long fangs. Losing 2 storm shields does not make the TWC any less tough, and the entire unit is still entirely complex for wound allocation shenanigans.

4 Storm shields doesn't make them a Death Star as much as a Liability. You'll have cover from almost all shooting and the things that require you bring storm shields will more than likely strike after you. The points add up quickly for marginal survivability.

The Lazorbacks are so you aren't entirely fethed in a Dawn of War game because your support elements will not be able to get good positioning when walking on the board.

2 Extra lascannons on top of 12 Missiles will make de-meching your opponent easier and prevent dead zones in your fields of fire.

I been playing Space Wolves for quite some time now and although really fun the Thunder puppy/kitty spaam list does have its share of issues.

4 Wolf riders really is too many. Most you want is 3 and a Rune Priest. A rune priest is really important so you do not get hit by annoying powers such as lash, fear the darkness, murderous hurricane, psyker battle squad etc. 2 Lords and a Rune Priest would give you points for some other things deemed necessary.

They are expensive but you want to buy some Fenris wolves for each lord as ablative wounds. If you get hit by strength 10 you really do not want to lose an expensive character on a thunderwolf.

The fast thunder wolves only can get one power weapon/ fist so you might want to run 2 units 1 with each lord instead of just one deathstar that can only be in one place at once. The Wolf claw actually is preferable because you strike on initiative. Mark of Wulfen is actually bad for thunder wolves because you can get less attacks then your default profile.

Dawn of War you really want a Las/plas Razorback transport for your Long Fangs to get them to optimal cover/firing positions. Running just does not get you where you need to be all the time. A vehicle gives you options for a 12 inch move in a vehicle 2 inch disembark + a run should get you to cover or an optimal firing lane. The extra vehicles can shoot and pick up Grey Hunters who lose their transport later.

Issues that I found with the thunderwolf deathstar are
1. You can only be in one place at once with your hugely expensive deathstar.
2. Dealing with multiple land raiders especially vulkan lists
3. Assault Terminators with TH/SS multi assaulting.
4. Psyker battle squads can be a problem because of their 36 inch range if they can kill enough thunder wolves with demolishers or manticores.
5. One bad roll can ruin your characters day sometimes.
6. Running low numbers of scoring units can work but depending on the tournament format and number of objectives it might not be the best way to go since if they are going to have 5 fixed objectives and you have to control 3 or 4 more for a massacre. More scoring units is better.

I have since moved to a more balanced list that includes some thunder kitties but does not focus on them but I used to run something like this
Wolf Lord, Thunder Wolf, Saga of the Bear, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Wolf Tail Talisman, Fenris Wolves X 2
275
Wolf Lord, Thunder Wolf, Saga of the Warrior Borne, Frost Axe, Storm Shield, Runic Armor, Fenris Wolves X 2
275
Rune Priest, Jaws, living lightning
100

Troops
Grey Hunters, Melta, Rhino
115 points
Grey Hunters, Melta, Rhino
115 points
Grey Hunters, Melta, Rhino
115 points

Fast attack
4 Thunder wolves
wolf claw
Stormshield melta bomb
stormshield
nothing
285 points

Heavy Support
5 Long Fangs, 4 Missle, Razorback with Las cannon / TL Plasma
190
5 Long Fangs, 4 Missle, Razorback with Las cannon / TL Plasma
190 points
5 Long Fangs, 4 Missle, Razorback with Las cannon / TL Plasma
190 points

1850

I liked, is a small list, but is to fast.
Look you have 8 thunderwof in total, that is 6" in movement fase, until 6" plus in fire fase and 12" in assault fase, all with resistance 5, force 5. Is not a bad combination for me.
Its a shame that the wolf priest cannot mount in thunderwolves, the combination can be in really awesome.

I don`t like the shorts list, but this have some thing special
2 tumbs up!!!

Ahh now were getting somewhere with these replies.

@Lone Dragoon- That's something closer to what I was trying to accomplish with my army. I also appreciate you trying to keep the army simillar which is always nice. Some tweaks I would make to your tweaks, give the first wolf lord a power fist, drop saga of warrior born, give the melta bomb WGBL runic armor andwolf tail talisman also, and lastly give the TWC a power fist.

@Unholy Martyr- I feel like the storm shields really make the difference against things like Ghazzghkull, or multiple TH SS termies. But I see your point. As far as razorbacks go, the points are tough to find. What I might do is dedicate the rhinos to the long fangs in case of dawn of war. And for everything else have them taxi around the grey hunters.

@Avariel- That's certainly a competitive idea you have. I was thinking of running 2 units of thunder puppys earlier but then sided against it, as I'd still want 4 lords and that means losing all my long fang support. Fenrisian wolves are nice, very nice to have. But they only really help against guard shooting, and maybe tau but no one plays them. And I hope that against guard I can get by on just spreading out and putting hits on the immune to instant death guy. As far as psychic powers, the 4 5+'s I have will hopefully save me from those nasty powers.

As far as your list of bad things...
1. I can split the unit up and multi charge.
2. I have no real counter, play well and position better than your opponent and hope you win is all I've got.
3. The only circumstance that this could happen is against vulkan which I've already addressed.
4. I have talismans and wound allocation to stop PBS's
5. Bad dice effect every army, I play daemons competitively, and have over a 90% win average with them, trust me I know.

As far as scoring units go, I completely agree. Wholeheartedly, as for what I can do about it, is inform myself about the tournament before I enter. That' about all.

@PriestChile- Thanks buddy!

You need transports for both your troops and your long fangs period. Sharing transports really does not work as you need to get long fangs to good firing lanes and your troops to objectives.

Spliting up and multi charging only gets you so far. If your opponent castles in both corners you have a problem.

You need Rune Priest for psyker defense not just for your death star but for your long fangs and grey hunters. Lash or fear of darkness can take you off objectives or deprive you of shooting lanes. The Rune Priest provides this. Living Lightning also gives you some ranged anti tank and Jaws just wins against low initiative armies.

Thunder puppy spam is a really fun list to play and convert though.

Well, Thanks to you for my next list (the thunder wolves are a problem but...).
I know the force of the thunder wolves, are very fast and very hard to kill... even if don`t have invulnerability salvation. Is the best unit of the space wolves.
Like I said, I don`t like short list, but 8 thunder wolves are a very powerfull force, to many attack, rending, good force and resistance. That is a hard core by any opponent, maybe you can have problem whit a real big list of imperial guard or Orks, but you can jump one side to other destriying enemy forces.

I see a similar list in the last tournament abut 2 weeks and my partner finish second, is not a bad place for 5 Thunderwolves less equipment than yours

@Yermom

Well I was actually referring to proper target priority with a good DE build Basically Venoms eliminate Long Fangs in the opening salvo (not hard w/108 poison shots) while Ravagers pick apart your little metal boxes (should get results on 2/3 rhinos opening turn) And a nice beast squad or two to tie down your big kids while the rest of the army picks you apart by moving 12" away and scattering.

But don't sweat it to much, you'll probably be fine It's a good solid and scary list. And it did remind of me why I proably won't actually build a 20 Termie list since it has no answer to super dudes riding super wolves Still like the list though. Run Rampant my friend. One day I'll settle on a 2011 list for myself

But don't sweat it to much, you'll probably be fine It's a good solid and scary list. And it did remind of me why I proably won't actually build a 20 Termie list since it has no answer to super dudes riding super wolves Still like the list though. Run Rampant my friend. One day I'll settle on a 2011 list for myself

Its the right time to search for the proper super-competitive list for 2011. It seems that Yermon found his.

Hulk I'm sure you'll find something! I was liking those blood angel lists you posted on your blog a few days ago. But either way we need to have a game at some point this year.

Wuestenfux I dunno if this will be my list for sure, but at least something involving lots of thunder wolves would be ideal

I run something similar, except with max fangs and instead of TWC a 15man fenrisian wolf bubble, and 4 lords. It works ok, usually I either table my opponent with it (or close) or lose big time, but its fun and quick to play.

I tried the 4 thunderlord+TWC list once, got charged out of land raiders by a squad of THSS and another of normal termis, rolled shittily for saves, lost combat by 1, failed an ld9 check with a reroll, and ran off the board Didnt play that list again for a while

yermom wrote:What does it struggle against? That's an honest question, I'm not trolling. Everytime I compare it to even the most obscure lists you'd see at a tournament I can't see it struggling too hard.

Lysander, a null zone Libby, and a bunch of TH/SS will win combat and escort you off the board. Tone down your TWC and get a Rune priest for the 4+ psyker defense.

Long fangs arent gods either. Throw a few wounds their direction and suddenly 5 missiles goes down to 3, then goes down to 1 pretty fast. If you think 10 missile long fangs is going to help you against 1850pts DE spam list, then you are sadly mistaken. Needs less TWC and more support IMO. I love my deathstars, but I never spend over 50% of my army on one.

I have a few friends who run lists like this as their main tournament lists and I know for a fact it is an excellent army. A list like this just damn near won the Sprue Posse GT, which was the most competitive tournament I have ever been to in terms of player to skill level ratio.

DE actually don't beat this unless they have a massive amount of Venoms. The reason why is that the Wolves are faster and will catch them and crush them. I have seen the match-up and it wasn't pretty doe the DE.

The rune priest isn't necessary as each model has a WTT to help negate psychic powers.

Nob bikers get completely owned by TWC with fists, no question.

TH/SS termies with null zone get owned too, I have seen this match up. The Wolfstar will crush them almost every time even when outnumbered by termies and when taking the charge.

@Yermon
I would drop 1 TWC and upgrade the character to lords for the extra 2+ wound. Helps a ton against flak fire.

You only need two troops in book standard lists with this this type of army. Drop the meltas and go with flamers, use the extra points to up-gun to Razorbacks. You'll use them a lot more and the Wolfstar will crush heavy armor with mass strength 10 attacks, no worries there.

It is a rock solid army that will simply steam roll most armies. I have seen it take down tournament Mechdar, Chaos, Kan Wall, Missile Spam Wolves, etc. Oddly, Footdar seem to kick the crap out of this list but you don't seem them too much in tournaments.

Good luck with it! It is a very good army and I think you will find that it pwns most of your opponents with little difficulty.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Plus, the army looks awesome and has a low model count so you can take time to make it look sweet.

As far as dealing with Dark Eldar spam...Yermoms latest iteration has 3 things going for it: Rune Priest, Razorbacks and Long Fangs. Now I will say that I can no longer advocate pure Missile Launcher Long Fangs as they just cannot cut it now with the amounts of Feel No Pain running around and the likelihood of seeing large groups of Terminators.

I ran a list that was similar but a little different in a local Tournament and found 3 things were important:

1) Those Thunderwolves are badass; however, when you meet someone who knows how to deal with them properly you'll run into BIG problems fast.

2) Either Long Fangs are supplemented with other heavy firepower or you'll be caught with your pants down 7/10 times. Their static nature and the wonders of True Line of Sight make Long Fangs a huge liability if they are your soul Long Range Support.

I disagree about Long Fangs, Unholy Martyr.

Unless you play with a LOT of LoS blocking terrain, Fangs have no problem covering the board. Most true shooty units are static, you just need multiples of them to cover lanes of fire.

Also, if you have a lot of LoS blocking terrain, the Wolfstar is stoked as it means less fire coming into them.

Even if there isn't a large amount of LOS blocking terrain, Long Fangs can become liabilities as your focus is on maintaining your own LOS. I'm just used to supplementing them on the case of Venoms wrecking units or Baal Predators.

Even in heavy terrain environments, TWC may thrive but they pay the price for moving throygh the same terrain that benefits them.

These are just observations I've made in the past few months.