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this may be a noob question, sorrry if so.

I was wondering in regards to wolf scouts if thier behind enemy lines ability works when they are joined with an IC with outflank (through saga of the hunter) or with a member of the wolf guard who elects to lead a unit of wolf scouts. and if yes can that character or wolf guard use termie armor? what do you guys say?

Wolf guard - yes, as the become a member of the unit in their entirety

Outflanking IC - technically no. As soon as the nonScout nonInfiltrate IC joins the unit loses Scouts, meaning the lose the ability to OBEL.

Saga of the hunter allows an IC to outflank, and the GW SW FAQ(5th page 3rd question) allows the IC with the saga of the hunter to join them in outflanking.

However; BEL does not say "The unit", nor "this Unit", but instead "a Wolf Scout unit"; A Wolf Scout unit with a hunter-saga'd Wolf priest(or any other IC) attached is no longer a :wolf Scout unit" so would not be able to benefit from their Special outflank.

thanks a ton! that clears things up for me!

Huh?
I asked this question here before and got the "answer" that BEL is a move within the outflank ability, so when the IC get the outflank ability (with saga of the hunter) he may join them in the special BEL manouver since its still just a way to outflank. (Although not in TD arnmour since that is not allowed together with saga of the hunter.) I was surprised at this take on the rules, but none the less glad to be able to get an IC behind enemy lines

I know this forum dont provide "cut in stone rules", And I guess, in this rule there is lots of room for interpretation (as with much SW stuff).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
No wait, I remembered wrong. But still; I quote the most lerned Insaniak about this take on the rule:

"It's not that BEL is a subcategory of Outflank, but simply that it's an effect that kicks in when the unit chooses to Outflank.

So yes, if the IC is able to Outflank with the unit, I see no reason for BEL to not work for the unit as normal."

It's generally accepted as far as I know that if Wolf Scouts are joined by a Wolf Guard Pack Leader they may use Behind Enemy Lines, however if they are joined by an Independent Character with Saga of the Hunter they may not. This snip from the FAQ seems to support that:

Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before the game begins because of its scouts ability, choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines?
A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the fact that he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts ability does not preclude the squad he has joined from using those abilities.

Behind Enemy Lines is a special rule that modifies the Wolf Scouts use of their Outflank move, granted by the Scouts special rule. An Independent Character with Saga of the Hunter joining the Wolf Scouts would have Scout, Infiltrate and Outflank, but would lack Behind Enemy Lines, thus the unit would have a special rule that the Independent Character did not, and would lose that rule when the Independent Character joins them.

"It's not that BEL is a subcategory of Outflank, but simply that it's an effect that kicks in when the unit chooses to Outflank.

So yes, if the IC is able to Outflank with the unit, I see no reason for BEL to not work for the unit as normal."

This is an erroneous statement, because while Behind Enemy Lines is in fact an effect that kicks in when the unit chooser to Outflank, it is an effect granted by a special rule, and the rulebook clearly states that a units loses special rules when joined by an Independent Character if that character does not also have the same special rule. Wolf Guard Pack Leaders are immune to this because they are not Independent Characters and actually become a part of the pack they join in all respects, including benefiting from all of their special rules.

The answer is a firm no, Independent Characters do not get to use Behind Enemy Lines when joining Wolf Scouts, even with Saga of the Hunter.

Aldarionn wrote:... and the rulebook clearly states that a units loses special rules when joined by an Independent Character if that character does not also have the same special rule.

That only applies to Universal Special Rules. BEL is not a USR.

insaniak wrote:

Aldarionn wrote:... and the rulebook clearly states that a units loses special rules when joined by an Independent Character if that character does not also have the same special rule.

That only applies to Universal Special Rules. BEL is not a USR.

Yes, but if they lose infiltrate and/or scouts, they can't DO BEL. And sadly, it seems Saga of the Hunter gives the Outflank rule, so by the looks of it, he would remove the Scouts' Infiltrate and Scouts special rules, making them unable to outflank in the first place?

Hm, I may have just added confusion to this thread, but I am bored and wanted to try my hand at the question. XD

Soo to sum up my answer shortly.

A WGBL who joins a scout unit gains the BEL rule as he becomes a scout, however, it does state that he CAN NOT wear Tactical dreadnaught armour (termie armour) so he can but then he cant in termie.

A wolf priest with saga (or any leader with saga of the hunter) joining them however, causes the BEL to be lost, although the unit can Outflank just fine with the IC with saga, thats how i remember the FAQ reading it anyhow >.>

Nightrave wrote:Soo to sum up my answer shortly.

A WGBL who joins a scout unit gains the BEL rule as he becomes a scout, however, it does state that he CAN NOT wear Tactical dreadnaught armour (termie armour) so he can but then he cant in termie.

A wolf priest with saga (or any leader with saga of the hunter) joining them however, causes the BEL to be lost, although the unit can Outflank just fine with the IC with saga, thats how i remember the FAQ reading it anyhow >.>

not a WGBL.

A Wolf guard, who is assigned as pack leader.

The FAQ technically breaks the Basic Rules(without a Specific rule to trump the General rules). The FAQ states that an IC with Saga of the Hunter can join a Wolf Scout squad and outflank with them, although as pointed out the Wolf Scouts would not be capable of outflanking the moment the IC is joined to them because they would lose Infiltrate and Scouts. We use the FAQ so it's law stands even though it breaks the rules.

I'm getting confused now since there seems to be good arguments for both sides! haha

The FAQ breaks the rules, as "Outflank" is a consequence of haing Scout and / or Infiltrate normally, and the rules for those USRs state they are lost if a character without them joins a unit with them.

This means that, strictly, a unit of Wolf Scouts joined by the "Outflank" IC would LOSE Scouts and Infiltrate, meaning they could no longer OBEL. The FAQ came along and decided they could still Outflank, however this should have been an errata as it is a *blatant* change in the way the game rules work.

Aldarionn wrote:This snip from the FAQ seems to support that:

Q. Can a Wolf Scout Pack with a Wolf Guard Pack Leader assigned to it deploy as Infiltrators, make a move before the game begins because of its scouts ability, choose to outflank or use Behind Enemy Lines?
A. Yes, to all of the above, because the Wolf Guard Pack Leader is not an Independent Character and therefore the fact that he does not have the Infiltrate or Scouts ability does not preclude the squad he has joined from using those abilities.

This is covering characters without any outflanking ability An IC without outflank (or any of the other skills) cant do them with the scouts. However, a WG dont need to have those abilities, because they merge with the unit and gain the units skills. Still I see a point here that ICs dont get the skills from the unit.

I think the best argument is that an IC can not join a unit untill it has deployed, and thus, can not benefit from any BEL rules untill after the deployment has been made (when ofcourse the BEL is already played out.)

this makes sense to me. I suspected that saga of the hunter did not allow Wolf scouts to have an IC BEL with them, but I thought it odd that it seemed odd to not allow a wolf guard to commit to a BEL with the scouts he's leading.

Aldarionn wrote:
Behind Enemy Lines is a special rule that modifies the Wolf Scouts use of their Outflank move, granted by the Scouts special rule. An Independent Character with Saga of the Hunter joining the Wolf Scouts would have Scout, Infiltrate and Outflank, but would lack Behind Enemy Lines, thus the unit would have a special rule that the Independent Character did not, and would lose that rule when the Independent Character joins them.

While I agree with your final answer of no, just thought I'd mention that Sage/Hunter only gives the ability to Outflank and Stealth. It does not give Infiltrate or Scouts. It's the lack of the Infiltrate or Scouts USRs that kills off the SW Scouts ability to use BEL, since they lose their own Infiltrate /Scouts once an IC without those abilities joins them.

Course, GW did have to go and confuse the issue with this FAQ:

Q. Can an Independent Character that has
joined a Wolf Scouts pack outflank? What about
if he has the Saga of the Hunter?
A. No he cannot. He can only join an outflanking
unit if he has the ability to outflank because of
the Saga of the Hunter.

And given that (IIRC) SW Scouts are the only SW unit that has anything along the lines of Outflank...................