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How are these guys used properly? I know that they aren't cost effective and there are much better choices in the Eldar Codex, but they intrigue me. Everyone uses Fire Dragons, Scorpions, and Banshees. They've all got their uses, but what about these damned Hawks? I've been thinking long and hard about how I can incorporate them into my army to make the most of them. I know they suck, but I'd like to stand apart from the crowd and actually find use for them.

I've thought out a few different uses for them, but am not sure which is the better route. As it is, I think they're pointless for attacking infantry. Their guns just don't cut it. But I got thinking about their Haywire Grenades and their yo-yo tactic. The idea that sounds good in my head is to use them as tank hunters. Don't bother deep striking them, just hug a board edge or some cover and hop around until I get near a tank. Then rush into close combat and hope for the best. The other idea that crossed my mind was to attach an Autarch with them, give him Wings and a Fusion Gun and utilizing their grenades if his gun doesn't cut the mustard.

Has anyone had any luck with these guys? Any tactical advice? Does my plan sound relatively solid?

What do you want all your soldiers armed with assault 2 melta guns?

Their guns are in no way bad. They are a storm bolter with less strength, yes, but that doesn't make them a bad weapon, especially when supported by doom. The sun rifle is particularly effective if you take an exarch since it makes use of his high BS, and includes pinning. With intercept they are effective at damaging tanks (likely wont kill them, but keeping a tank shooting for a turn or removing its main gun is still a big advantage). Sky leap allows them to redeploy to any part of the table.

Part of the issue with them is that they are so fragile. You need to present other targets for your opponent to focus on to keep them safe. If left relatively alone, they can do a pretty high amount of damage. In addition with fortune (should you be able to spare it) they are still quite resistant to light arms fire. You need to take advantage of their mobility and flexibility, keeping out of enemy range when you can, but in range of choice targets. With flexibility, they can shore up a weakness your army has (except heavy infantry killers, which they will help by forcing saves, but like any massed fire unit wont kill much). Use sky leap and varying deployment tactics (start on the table, come on from the edge and deepstrike depending on deployment, mission and opponent). That is their advantage. They are flexible, which is something nothing else in the codex is, so take as much advantage of that as you can.

I wouldn't advise the yo-yo tactic as it's too far into the opinion that hawks are terrible and useless, and if you bought them just for the grenade pack it's a waste. Also, I wouldn't advise concentrating them on a job like other aspect warriors. Instead keep an open mind about them, allowing them to do what ever your army needs at a given time.

As for the autarch, you're wasting shooting with 1 melta gun while the hawks cannot fire. Better to do this with spiders as not only might the massed S6 help, but they can also jump out of range of the contents. You could try one with a power weapon and mandiblasters, but even with a power weapon exarch they only account for 3 dead marines on the charge on average (which isn't bad, but you're paying a lot for that, and a 5+ tends to bounce off more than you'd like).

I use mine on VERY rare occasions... 4+ armor, T3 and a real lack of hitting power against say, Marines keep them in the case for me. Most everybody has a spare Heavy Bolter somewhere in their army, so by and large they simply cannot do as well as the Spiders for ~ the same cost... Neat idea, just wish they were cheap enough for me to field without feeling that I'm handycapping myself further against a good army list...

Swooping Hakws are one of the few units in the Eldar dex that are truly bad. They have such a limited use when compared to other units.

If you play lots of infantry heavy armies with low armor saves, such as Orks, Bugs, IG infantry spam, etc, they can be pretty good. Their ability to yo-yo hawk (which should not be legal) means you can have a unit that will continuously hop in and out and drop pie and then contest an objective last turn.

They are also good if you play against skimmer spam lists and you can get them to assault skimmers regularly.

Other than that, they are not useful. The kicker is that there are other units in the army that perform similar roles just as well or better, are often cheaper and they are useful against more units in different situations.

Swooping Hawks suck. As I have been saying for years, their gun should have been assault 3 or 4 and then they would be worthwhile as a dedicated skirmishing unit that can stay at long range and harass units like Longs Fangs, etc. The Dark Eldar scourges which are the equivalent of Swooping Hawks have gone in this direction (having assault 3 and 4 weapons) and I anticipate in the new book that Hawks will have guns that fire at a higher rate, making them actually useful.

Ail-Shan wrote:What do you want all your soldiers armed with assault 2 melta guns?

Their guns are in no way bad. They are a storm bolter with less strength, yes, but that doesn't make them a bad weapon, especially when supported by doom. The sun rifle is particularly effective if you take an exarch since it makes use of his high BS, and includes pinning. With intercept they are effective at damaging tanks (likely wont kill them, but keeping a tank shooting for a turn or removing its main gun is still a big advantage). Sky leap allows them to redeploy to any part of the table.

Part of the issue with them is that they are so fragile. You need to present other targets for your opponent to focus on to keep them safe. If left relatively alone, they can do a pretty high amount of damage. In addition with fortune (should you be able to spare it) they are still quite resistant to light arms fire. You need to take advantage of their mobility and flexibility, keeping out of enemy range when you can, but in range of choice targets. With flexibility, they can shore up a weakness your army has (except heavy infantry killers, which they will help by forcing saves, but like any massed fire unit wont kill much). Use sky leap and varying deployment tactics (start on the table, come on from the edge and deepstrike depending on deployment, mission and opponent). That is their advantage. They are flexible, which is something nothing else in the codex is, so take as much advantage of that as you can.

I wouldn't advise the yo-yo tactic as it's too far into the opinion that hawks are terrible and useless, and if you bought them just for the grenade pack it's a waste. Also, I wouldn't advise concentrating them on a job like other aspect warriors. Instead keep an open mind about them, allowing them to do what ever your army needs at a given time.

As for the autarch, you're wasting shooting with 1 melta gun while the hawks cannot fire. Better to do this with spiders as not only might the massed S6 help, but they can also jump out of range of the contents. You could try one with a power weapon and mandiblasters, but even with a power weapon exarch they only account for 3 dead marines on the charge on average (which isn't bad, but you're paying a lot for that, and a 5+ tends to bounce off more than you'd like).

I see where you're coming from. I was looking at them in a very narrow perspective. I like the ideas you're proposing and I like the idea of the Hawks being able to fill any gaps/support an area that needs some extra help.

Now how many should be in a squad? The full 10? Or do they operate well at lower numbers?


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Reecius wrote:Swooping Hakws are one of the few units in the Eldar dex that are truly bad. They have such a limited use when compared to other units.

If you play lots of infantry heavy armies with low armor saves, such as Orks, Bugs, IG infantry spam, etc, they can be pretty good. Their ability to yo-yo hawk (which should not be legal) means you can have a unit that will continuously hop in and out and drop pie and then contest an objective last turn.

They are also good if you play against skimmer spam lists and you can get them to assault skimmers regularly.

Other than that, they are not useful. The kicker is that there are other units in the army that perform similar roles just as well or better, are often cheaper and they are useful against more units in different situations.

Swooping Hawks suck. As I have been saying for years, their gun should have been assault 3 or 4 and then they would be worthwhile as a dedicated skirmishing unit that can stay at long range and harass units like Longs Fangs, etc. The Dark Eldar scourges which are the equivalent of Swooping Hawks have gone in this direction (having assault 3 and 4 weapons) and I anticipate in the new book that Hawks will have guns that fire at a higher rate, making them actually useful.

It's sounding like through your experience, they have no real focus or purpose on the battlefield, despite what Ail-Shan wrote. I still think that they can fulfill some purpose. I'm really curious on the size of the squad and I think that using them will really throw an opponent for a loop. I think that with proper movement and utilization of cover could really help them mop up the remains of a squad or keep a tank from firing for a turn or two.

imthepariah on here is working on an army with 3 units of yo-yo hawks. I think it has potential but puts alot more pressure on his 3 units of fire dragons to get the tanks busted!!! They are pretty good at dealing with long fang spam for the simple fact you can only make so many 3+ saves if you play with 3 units of 7 plus exarch, that's a pretty steady amout of fire especially when you add in the pie-plates.

I say 3 units of 7 plus exarch carrying a sunrifle with sklyeap and intercept or leave em on the shelf!

It just seems like Warpspiders can do a swooping hawks job better than they can as a harasser. You can equip them with grenades and intercept, but they are still really expensive and fragile.

The current Eldar codex has a few units that need a boost.

@Schnitzel
You are right, they are good at mopping up the remnants of a squad, but so are a lot of other units. That also do it better, cheaper and more reliably.

As Adeptsister said, other units just do what they do better. For the points you are much better off getting War Spiders who with their strength 6 can hurt vehicles, too. In a Mechanized world, that is a much better buy. They are also better against light infantry, MCs, are faster and more survivable. There is no reason outside of fluff to take Swooping Hawks. The yo-yo technique is an annoyance at best and a good way to really annoy people but that is about it. It is worthless against mech.

But by all means, use them if you like. They are beautiful models and I wish they were worth a damn. Next edition hopefully they get the boost they deserve and are finally useful.

Stick to Warp Spiders or Guardian Jetbikes if you want a similar unit that is actually useful.

The only possible good use I can see with hawks is if your opponent sticks his big tanks together. This would enable hawks to multi assault 2 or more vehicles, which could be deadly and is more likely to give your hawks cover from return fire. The problem is, is it really worth getting them for this very limited circumstance, as if they can only assault one vehicle you're better of with spiders, vypers or dragons who fulfill this role much better

My usual squad is 7 hawks including exarch with sun rifle and both powers. I tried it once without sky leap, but it just adds so much more control over the unit that it's hard to pass up. Anyway, this way they have a decent number of shots and a good number of grenades to throw against vehicles.

I say 3 units of 7 plus exarch carrying a sunrifle with sklyeap and intercept or leave em on the shelf!

I say no. You don't need 3 squads of a support unit, especially at their cost (that's about 650 points). 1 is sufficient. I don't think I'd even consider 2 squads.

The kicker is that there are other units in the army that perform similar roles just as well or better, are often cheaper and they are useful against more units in different situations.

Reecius do you have any example units other than spiders?

As for the spiders: Against vehicles they can only damage up to armor 12, and there will do nearly nothing to it due to no AP. In addition if the vehicle moved flat out they now have to go through the cover save. In addition their threat range against vehicles is only slightly larger than the hawks' since with a 6" fleet it's the same range, but that is unlikely. However hawks have a longer effective range against infantry, which is very important if they are shooting at a jump squad and want to keep out of assault (spiders have to rely on their jump, which has a chance to roll low). Spiders are also not more maneuverable than hawks (at least not with the exarch). While spiders may have their warp jump, hawks have sky leap. I'd qualify being able to jump off the table to deepstrike somewhere else entirely as more maneuverable. The grenade pack is a perk, though not exactly powerful.

I wouldn't argue that hawks are better than spiders, but that they fill different rolls. Spiders are more of a close support hit and run unit to be used against infantry, while hawks, again, are an all around unit that can help against any target.

Except Hawks aren't in any way an all round unit, they are mid ranged light infantry harassment units which can chase vehicles if they absolutely have to. They certainly aren't an assault unit, are incredibly fragile, their anti tank ability is limited at best (it requires them to get in close which means they are probably going to get shot at, which doesn't end well) and their actual anti infantry firepower isn't very impressive either (its outclassed by pretty much every anti infantry weapon/unit in the codex, including a Guardian Defender unit). Sadly Swooping Hawks are one of the truely bad units in the Eldar codex, there are plenty of sub par units which are overpriced or showing their age in 5th, but only a couple which are just a total waste of points.

Spiders have a similar role, except because they have multi shot S6 weapons they can reliably do wounds to almost every non vehicle unit in the game. MEQ and GEQ will die to that many wounds and S6 also lets you take on things like Nid MCs fairly well. It also lets them threaten light vehicles without having to be right up close. They are also faster due to the assault phase jump and Hit and Run, more survivable due to the 3+ save and a slightly better assault unit (still not great but the Exarch has an extra attack). The only slight advantage Hawks have is the 24" range, but with the assault phase jump Spiders are still mobile enough to keep them outside of that important 12" bracket once they have fired. If you really wanted long ranged anti infantry in your Fast Attack slots (considering you probably already have plenty in your Troops and various transports already) then you would be far better of picking Vypers, they have much greater range and are far harder to take out.

Powerguy said it.

@Ail-Shan

One of the all around best units in the Eldar codex right now is this:
Guardian Jetbikes x 3: S.Cannon, Warlock on bike w/ Destructor, s.spear
134 points.

It is a fast scoring unit that can take on light infantry (shuriken weapons and heavy flamer) tanks (str 9 singing spear that can be thrown then used against rear armor). The unit can harass (JSJ) take down weakened units, assault shooty units, turbo boost and take objectives.

They have a 3+ save and a 4++ on the Warlock if you need to soak a heavy wepaon.

Far superior unit in every way and cheaper.

There is a reason you never see Hawks on the table top, and that is because in a dex that is overcosted already, you just can't afford to bring an expensive unit that hits like a wet noodle.

There is a reason you never see Hawks on the table top, and that is because in a dex that is overcosted already, you just can't afford to bring an expensive unit that hits like a wet noodle.

Actually that's untrue. There's a reason you don't see them posted on internet lists often (there are a few rare occasions) because this is what is posted on the internet and what those who then post on the internet themselves tend to believe (a few have their own experience backing it up, yet a few have their own experience, like myself, backing up the side that hawks are useful). I've seen a few Eldar players other than myself field hawks, hence have seen them "on the table top." Your assumption that everyone is trying to build the most optimal list, and more that the information posted on the internet is accurate in all cases, is false.

As for your guardian squad, you are cheaper and you score, which is a big advantage. You about as hard to kill because you have a better armor save and higher toughness. Of course you die just as easily in assault (easier in some cases because you don't have offensive grenades and you are only the initiative of a marine. On another note, it is sad that "only the initiative of a marine" is an accurate statement, while the initiative, indeed most stats of a marine, probably should be something significant to say. You also have less mobility (smaller assault range, shorter shooting threat range with about the same damage output, likely less because you have far fewer shots and are BS3, and you can't jump off the table). While a spear is S9, and that is impressive, your 2 swings on the charge will on average get you 1/3 hit, which is not exactly reliable at killing a tank. It's similar to saying that you can kill tanks because your seargent has a melta-bomb and a melta gun. It isn't that accurate, because while you have the potential, there's a quite high chance that you'll do nothing of any significance.

You also have lower leadership, meaning you are more likely to run (and only 1 casualty needs to be cause to force that). Wound allocation hurts you more because you have fewer units guarding your special characters. In addition, you are still on foot. 1 BS3 shuriken cannon is not an effective weapon at range. Until you are close, you are not a threat, and even then you are still easy to deal with. You can likely be beaten in assault by a tactical marine squads (hawks have the advantage that if they hold for the 1 assault phase when they are charged they can sky leap off). Again, Hawks are also better at keeping out of your opponent's effective range. With intercept, the hawks are far better at taking on tanks other than walkers than your squad.

I'm still not seeing how your unit is better. You lack the threat range, and the mobility, and in general the survivability of the hawks, as well as the tank killing ability (1 singing spear is not reliable). Yes you cost less, but you are also far less of a threat and less resilient.

Aye-yi-yi.

First of all, I never said everyone was trying to maximize efficiency. I stated quite clearly that Hawks could work just fine in a fluff based list if someone really wanted to use them. I also stated that it was great if someone had good luck with them and wanted to use them as I think they are beautiful models and I like the fluff.

I never said the internet was always right, I never even implied it, so I have no idea where that came from. I often write articles about people using their own experience as their guide. I have quite the opposite stance than the one you tried to attribute to me. The internet is a resource to gather information and get ideas. Unless you are a big time tournament gamer, the game for you is totally local and as such, your own experience is your best guide. Which is why I always say: if it works for you, then great.

Lastly, if you really want to break down the numbers on why the Guardian Jetbike/Warlock squad is better, we can go through it but it is tedious. Simply put, a tooled up Hawk squad costs just about double what the Jetbike squad costs and is about half as useful.

How about this: try both. See which one you like. I have been playing this game for 16 years now (not trying to say that makes me infallible, I often make mistakes) and I have found, along with every other Eldar player I have encountered (and I play all over the country in tournaments, again, that doesn't make me incapable of being wrong, just gives you an idea of my background) and it is unanimous that Hawks are an inferior unit.

And just because I can't help myself:

Unless you play in an area where everyone moves over 6" every time with their vehicles, Guardian Jetbikes will hit more than 1/3 of the time. On average against your typical vehicles (Rhinos, Chimeras) you will hit 2/3 times with the thrown str 9 spear, 1.5 times with the str 6 cannon, and 1 time on rear armor with the str 9 spear. That equates to a very reliable anti-tank unit.

But really, if you are smart, you come up the flank with them turbo boosted and hit a stationary vehicle on side armor with guns (manticores, preds, etc.) then assault. If there are no good targets, reserve them and have them turbo-boost onto an objective late game to win it for you.

They have, in my extensive experience, proven to be more useful, more powerful, obviously cheaper, and all around better. YMMV. And like I always say, if a unit works for you, then good on you. Run with it as it is great to see a variety of units on the table top. But, you are gong to have an extremely hard time proving Hawks are anything but bad in the majority of cases. Experience, data and the math just go too strongly against you.

I've have hawks... I like using hawks ... I fully agree they are over priced.


What you have are models with an ok gun (24" Assault 2 is not to be sniffed at even Str3) but only have a 5+ save. Now in 4th they made up for this by have a really great and reliable means of killing tanks (haywire grenades) and a great charge range of 19-24"; 5th made them a less effective since its harder to kill on a glance. When I still take them its 5 man no Exarch and I'll normally DS for the large blast; the 24" normally means they'll land in range of something and they're often ignored thanks to the internet.

Reason that most people don't use them is they share the fast attack slot with warp spiders. Since spider can JSJ, have a Str6 gun and 3+ save its easy to see why people pick them over hawks.

A unit that isn't good at anything (like pooping hawks) is not the same as an all-around unit (like a tac squad or something)

Skyleap+Grenades is expensive and, this following bit is important here, does less damage than most units that are actually good at shooting.

And then you take the guys that you paid points for off the table, so when other units would be actually doing stuff that you bought them for your hawks are flying around doing nothing except making their owner feel like a tactical genius for paying 100% points for a unit you get for 50% of the game.

The previous posters have nailed it pretty well - people don't use hawks because they are outclassed at everything by everything else in the book. Their only saving grace is that they are just barely ok enough to not make you lose just for taking them, and that's not exactly a claim to fame in a codex that has stuff like dragons, harlies, spiders, etc etc.

I do not know. You can't build your list aound hawks and say "yeah take that" like 3 fire dragon squads in tanks. Hoverver, as long as you use them as a suplement and they are not the only unit on foot they could do very well.

If by "Very Well" you mean "Worse than every other single thing you can take in the book for the points, with the possible exception of wraithguard" then yeah they're awesome.


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It's important to seperate "I field them because I think they are cool" from "They are an effective unit when compared to other FOC choices and models within the same codex/similar models from other codexes" What I seem to see alot of in this forum is people trying to spin the former into the latter, which just makes a bunch of white noise for anyone trying to read through to find actual tactical advice.

@Mike
You nailed that, I am total agreement with you. So many people try and spin their idea of what should be into what is. It is a disservice to inexperienced players, really. The people don't mean any harm, but they cause it all the same.

I do have to disagree with you about wraithguard though! I know two players who use the 10 man troops squad and are very, very good. One of them just won a 100+ person GT and the other knocked my wolves out of Ard Boyz semis with that an army that used that unit. It makes a great scoring unit that creates a complete no fly zone for armor and MCs. With a warlock with embolden and a farseer casting fortune, they are crazy hard to kill, too.

Granted, a geared up assault unit with lots of fists or high strength power weapons will obliterate them if they can get to grips, but against typical mech spam without a strong HtH element, they are surprisingly good. They beat up on regular infantry in assault, too.

First of all, I never said everyone was trying to maximize efficiency. I stated quite clearly that Hawks could work just fine in a fluff based list if someone really wanted to use them.

You made a generalization (that you never see hawks on the table top) which implies that everyone is trying to make a list with maximized efficiency since the converse is that no one fields fluff based lists (because no one fields hawks). But, I shouldn't have exploited it. I'm busy trying to figure a way for my Eldar to get a new list I like that works. But moving on...

How about this: try both. See which one you like.

I agree with you and would do so except for 2 problems:
1. I don't own jet bikes (any).
2. I don't like jetbikes. I am not a fan of their models, play style, just them in general.

However, this advice of "try it yourself" is about the best you can give on the internet. The issue is that then there's no sense in having internet discussions. Following that, Schnitzle how do you like to play your Eldar?

Reecius wrote:@Mike
You nailed that, I am total agreement with you. So many people try and spin their idea of what should be into what is. It is a disservice to inexperienced players, really. The people don't mean any harm, but they cause it all the same.

I do have to disagree with you about wraithguard though! I know two players who use the 10 man troops squad and are very, very good. One of them just won a 100+ person GT and the other knocked my wolves out of Ard Boyz semis with that an army that used that unit. It makes a great scoring unit that creates a complete no fly zone for armor and MCs. With a warlock with embolden and a farseer casting fortune, they are crazy hard to kill, too.

Granted, a geared up assault unit with lots of fists or high strength power weapons will obliterate them if they can get to grips, but against typical mech spam without a strong HtH element, they are surprisingly good. They beat up on regular infantry in assault, too.

Yeah I imagine they're actually pretty good, especially in the current metagame w/ them being a troop and also comically lethal to all the mech spam. I was just struggling to find something that could maybe be worse than swooping hawks sometimes. Turns out there isn't anything!

That's actually a pretty good example of one of the gems that can make the tactics forum great, is someone explaining how a unit can be used well, and why it's good at it's job, with experience from tournaments to back it up.


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Ail-Shan wrote:
However, this advice of "try it yourself" is about the best you can give on the internet. The issue is that then there's no sense in having internet discussions. Following that, Schnitzle how do you like to play your Eldar?

That's a really bizarre opinion to state in the middle of an internet forum devoted exclusively to discussing tactics.

Truth of the matter is, experienced players can approximate what's going to happen on a tabletop reasonably well. I do not need to "Try for myself" a list that spams Pariahs to know that it would probably be a bad idea, for example.

Spiders are more forgiving than Hawks. In army that is unforgiving if you use a unit wrong for the wrong job you'll pay for it. The Spiders are easy to use not so much as the Hawks.....both have times and jobs on the table, use them wrong and it's a waste....the same it true for most units. I used a full unit of Fire Dragons in a Wave Serpent moved up close to a Defiler....shot the hell out of in and did nothing....bad die rolls good cover save and possession made my Fire Dragons look like fools.....on his turn he moved out of cover and used fleet to close and then assaulted the Fire Dragons. He didn't know that they all have melta bombs and he was destroyed. Now are Fire Dragons a bad unit or even use wrong ...no but is the Defiler a bad unit...no, but used wrong....yes.