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So the intent is a 30k-esque Blackshield type army? Or mechanically a mixed force using a detachment of Deathwatch and a detachment of Salamanders?

Just trying to clarify what is being asked so I can respond most accurately.

Sterling191 wrote:
So the intent is a 30k-esque Blackshield type army? Or mechanically a mixed force using a detachment of Deathwatch and a detachment of Salamanders?

Just trying to clarify what is being asked so I can respond most accurately.

Well what I wanted to end up creating is a Black Dragons list, and I plan to convert a bunch of models to have bone-blades and such. But I also wanted to lean heavily on melta and -maybe- flamer weapons (if flamers with the new 12" rules actually become useful).

Salamanders were my first pick for this, as you can get max-shots on flamers when needed, and/or +1 to wound, which both would seem to be the ideal choices. (Also Brayarth... but that's mostly cos I love the lore and the model and him being an unkillable monster.)

Problem is that there's no real option to show the use of the bone blades. Veterans are probably the best option, but they can't take melta pistols or flamers (I'm sure they used to be able to once upon a time).

I have also considered blood angels and space wolves (wolf claws fit the bill quite well) but then I still lose out on all the melta/flamer side of things.

Deathwatch lets me take a melee weapon, while still including the melta/inferno/flamer theme. As troops too, which means I won't feel like I'm paying a troops tax (which I usually do with marines).

So the ideal combo might be a couple veteran troops units (melee weapon + whatever), and then salamanders for ... aggressors, eradicators, brayarth/leviathan maybe?

Though Deathwatch lets me deepstrike a leviathan. So there's that.

I think -optimally- I'm much better off sticking to either DW or Sallies, but in either case I have to give up half my 'theme', if you see what I mean.

tldr: A lot of this might be rambling and not make much sense.

Vets may not be able to take inferno pistols and hand flamers, but they *can* take Combi-meltas and Combi-flamers alongside melee weapons.

Also keep in mind that Deathwatch does not presently have a superdoctrine. The army may get one in the new supplement, but right now they sacrifice nothing if they soup in other Marine forces. This is something I would routinely do during the end of 9th to get access to things like Eliminators.

Personally, I'd recommend that you pick a force and focus on that and just fit the bone blades where you can aesthetically. With things like Bladeguard and Assault Intercessors in the mix now there's plenty of ways to get melee marines into the mix.

Sterling191 wrote:
Vets may not be able to take inferno pistols and hand flamers, but they *can* take Combi-meltas and Combi-flamers alongside melee weapons.

Are you talking about deathwatch vets, or normal vets?

Cos deathwatch vets can take all of those options, including the inferno pistols etc.

standard vanilla vanguard veterans can't take inferno pistols, hand flamers, or combi weapons. All they get is a melee weapon and a bolt pistol / plasma pistol.

Sternguard can take combi weapons, but no melee weapons.

Niiru wrote:

Are you talking about deathwatch vets, or normal vets?

Im being a potato because I had indeed forgotten Deathwatch Vets (which I shall herefore refer to as Vets because we're in the Deathwatch thread) could take the pistol variants. Which makes me even more confused, because it seems like they can fulfill all your requirements.

So what's the question being asked?

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Are you talking about deathwatch vets, or normal vets?

Im being a potato because I had indeed forgotten Deathwatch Vets (which I shall herefore refer to as Vets because we're in the Deathwatch thread) could take the pistol variants. Which makes me even more confused, because it seems like they can fulfill all your requirements.

So what's the question being asked?

I guess as this is the DW thread I should attempt to push into a pure-DW list, so I guess the question becomes -

Is there a way to build the remainder of a DW list, that competes with what I was going to bring with a Sallies detachment. eg:

centrepiece dreadnought/vehicle - Brayarth in Sallies, but I guess deepstriking Leviathan works here (probably better tbh). DW do have the Blackstar which I like the model for, but I don't know how useful it is these days?

Flamers - Agressors with auto-max shot flamestorm seems like it has no match, in any army.

Meltas - However maybe DW eradicators? or other units with meltas? Any advantages to DW here with strats etc?


I've read through a lot of Space Marine stuff the last few days, and something unfortunate I've noticed (not totally related to Deathwatch) is GW seem to be removing all the units that used to have a lot of 'options'. All the new stuff is a fixed-loadout unit with no variable wargear. Deathwatch troops seem to be one of the remaining customisation "your guys" kind of places, and thats mostly only on the original oldmarine squad.

Niiru wrote:

centrepiece dreadnought/vehicle - Brayarth in Sallies, but I guess deepstriking Leviathan works here (probably better tbh). DW do have the Blackstar which I like the model for, but I don't know how useful it is these days?

You're not going to get anything as effectively immortal as Brayarth. A Leviathan can be beefy, but honestly the slot tax they have to pay plus their higher cost and impending re-write with the 9th Imperial Armor has me very hesitant to recommend one.

Niiru wrote:

DW do have the Blackstar which I like the model for, but I don't know how useful it is these days?

I've actually come around on the Blackstar for 9th. It's comparable in cost to most of the "smaller" Marine flyers, with a frankly respectable firepower output and, most importantly, loadout choices that allow for independence. Its a unit that can reroll all its 1s (hitting and wounding) just for showing up (assuming you're going after the right things of course). It's not gonna break the meta, but I really think it'll do work.

Niiru wrote:

Flamers - Agressors with auto-max shot flamestorm seems like it has no match, in any army.

On the contrary, Deathwatch have the only Blast flamer weapon in the game: the Frag Cannon. Put a handful in your squads and enjoy those sweet sweet 2s6 S6, Ap1, D1 autohitting shots per gun. You won't get innate pluses to wound or shot number rerolls like you will for Salamanders, but get even a handful close to a unit with 11+ models in it and watch the carnage. Their only caveat is that we have no idea if they'll jump out to 12" range like other flamer weapons.

Niiru wrote:

Meltas - However maybe DW eradicators? or other units with meltas? Any advantages to DW here with strats etc?

I'll be entirely honest, I cannot stand Eradicators, but that's a topic for another day. Yes, DW can field them, and even innately deep strike them. Alternatively, you've got MM attack bikes which do the same job, with better all-rounder firepower, better staying power and significantly improved mobility for a modest cost increase.

I think overall the storm shield is a positive change. A 2+4++ save is the same as a captain.. and we can have 10 x 2 wound models with that!

This is good imho, not overpowered, just very solid.

Sterling191 wrote:

On the contrary, Deathwatch have the only Blast flamer weapon in the game: the Frag Cannon. Put a handful in your squads and enjoy those sweet sweet 2s6 S6, Ap1, D1 autohitting shots per gun. You won't get innate pluses to wound or shot number rerolls like you will for Salamanders, but get even a handful close to a unit with 11+ models in it and watch the carnage. Their only caveat is that we have no idea if they'll jump out to 12" range like other flamer weapons.

Yeh I actually have liked the -idea- of frag cannons for a long time, but my issue with them is they are 20 points, which seems like a lot on a unit which can't be delivered via deepstrike (too short range). If it gets changed to 12" it'll be great, but I suspect it wont as it's not actually a flamer, it's more like a big shotgun. Maybe this is what the Blackstar is best used for, but again at 20 points per frag (not counting the actual unit) it potentially makes the flyer a big priority target.

Niiru wrote:

Yeh I actually have liked the -idea- of frag cannons for a long time, but my issue with them is they are 20 points, which seems like a lot on a unit which can't be delivered via deepstrike (too short range). If it gets changed to 12" it'll be great, but I suspect it wont as it's not actually a flamer, it's more like a big shotgun. Maybe this is what the Blackstar is best used for, but again at 20 points per frag (not counting the actual unit) it potentially makes the flyer a big priority target.

A veteran toting a frag cannon is 37 points. After the wound update that'll be roughly 40. A flamestorm aggressor is an equal number of points, cannot fit in a transport outside of the hilariously overcosted Repulsor chasses, and is a priority target. You dont need deep strike to deliver a five pack of Vets, with four storm shields, jumping out of a Razorback.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

Yeh I actually have liked the -idea- of frag cannons for a long time, but my issue with them is they are 20 points, which seems like a lot on a unit which can't be delivered via deepstrike (too short range). If it gets changed to 12" it'll be great, but I suspect it wont as it's not actually a flamer, it's more like a big shotgun. Maybe this is what the Blackstar is best used for, but again at 20 points per frag (not counting the actual unit) it potentially makes the flyer a big priority target.

A veteran toting a frag cannon is 37 points. After the wound update that'll be roughly 40. A flamestorm aggressor is an equal number of points, cannot fit in a transport outside of the hilariously overcosted Repulsor chasses, and is a priority target. You dont need deep strike to deliver a five pack of Vets, with four storm shields, jumping out of a Razorback.

do you mean 5 vets with 4 frag cannons? Or 8 vets with 4 frags and 4 shields?

Niiru wrote:

do you mean 5 vets with 4 frag cannons? Or 8 vets with 4 frags and 4 shields?

Thats entirely up to you. Razorback's seat six.

New changes to core units are gonna be significant for us I think, our mainline units will get core as default IMO which will open up a lot of options for combat squadded units.

Really excited for the book but frustrated at how much I need to wait on before making a finalized list (plus side I saved a lot of money for this marine release! )

Blast on the Frag is a little weird. Unless it's a unit of 11 its borderline meaningless and as soon as you cross 11 it gets pretty ludicrous pretty fast. Generally speaking, I've found big units of Frags overkill. 1-2 tops with Storm protection works out a lot better.

Razorbacks are likely to be a lot more viable transports for them unless GW gives Vanguards a purpose again.

 LunarSol wrote:
Blast on the Frag is a little weird. Unless it's a unit of 11 its borderline meaningless and as soon as you cross 11 it gets pretty ludicrous pretty fast. Generally speaking, I've found big units of Frags overkill. 1-2 tops with Storm protection works out a lot better.

Razorbacks are likely to be a lot more viable transports for them unless GW gives Vanguards a purpose again.

Agree on all counts here. Razorbacks were a staple in my DW lists in 8th, and I dont see that changing for 9th. With Vets going to 2w there's a lot more room for the 5-man elements to do the business.

Have to admit to considering a frag-cannon heavy list as an alternative to my flamer/melta list.

Not sure it'd be anywhere near as competitive, but it might be fun still

Keep in mind that you do still gain access to a +1 to wound Stratagem.

Regarding the announcement stream for the supplement... something still doesn't sit right with me regarding the way they referenced SIA.

I'm afraid they might make SIA into a Kill Team only effect.

Lemondish wrote:
Keep in mind that you do still gain access to a +1 to wound Stratagem.

Deathwatch technically get multiple +1 to wound strats. Its CP intensive and generally doesnt get done, but if you need two big kill teams each to slag a target with different FoC roles, we can do it.

Lemondish wrote:

Regarding the announcement stream for the supplement... something still doesn't sit right with me regarding the way they referenced SIA.

I'm afraid they might make SIA into a Kill Team only effect.

If we get new/updated Kill Teams to account for Phobos and Indomitus models...I'm entirely okay with this (excepting a tiny number of niche cases like standalone Terminator squads or Characters, which should absolutely keep SIA). Getting access to the prime Codex armory is opening up a lot of doors, and if the tradeoff is not getting SIA on things we werent using SIA with anyway, thats entirely reasonable from a balance perspective.

I completely understand the concern though. Deathwatch are an army that has only a few things going for them, and any tweaks to those have very serious ramifications for the viability, performance and character of the faction.

SIA won't go away since the codex show has confirmed it to still be there in the supplement.

But if it was going to be dumped: What would you give DW instead? SIA is the army special rule alongside Mission tactics.

Pyrosphere wrote:
SIA won't go away since the codex show has confirmed it to still be there in the supplement.

SIA may not be going away, but there is plenty of play in how SIA can be applied, as well as how the SIA effects themselves can be altered. Just because SIA exists doesnt for a second mean its going to do exactly the same thing it did in 8th.

I'd suspect that we'll lose the 'wound on 2+' SIA in favor of something like +1 to wound. The developers seemed really paranoid about SIA in 8th and I think they are likely going to tone it down some for the new edition. That said, maybe the other ammo types will become more useful as a result?? Obviously we're in wait-and-see mode, but it's fun to speculate.

Currently, some of Deathwatch's strengths as I see them are:
Combat-squadding Fortis or Veteran squads to get ObSec bikes, Vanguard Vets, Aggressors, and Inceptors
Intercessor infantry that hit harder than anyone elses in shooting
New emphasis on Necrons will fit into our anti-Xenos niche.

So ignoring the troops options for the moment (veterans are good and fun, but who knows if they'll be playable in a months time, and the primaris stuff is ... probably fine, if boring).


What -else- does Deathwatch have that people put in their lists? (That is actually equal to / better than what other 'normal' chapters can put on the table)

The four strengths of DW as they stand (and they will not stand much longer) outside of their unique units are the Teleportarium strat, special ammo, the anti-xenos strats and the +1 to wound strats.

- DS'ing Leviathan and friends is still scary and flexible.
- Hellfire is one of the strongest weapon options in the game, and now DW have doctrines T2 DS squads spitting out a tonne of -1 hellfire is very strong.
- The xenos strats are a mixed bunch but very strong in the right matchup.
- +1 to wound strats are money, pure and simple.

 grouchoben wrote:
The four strengths of DW as they stand (and they will not stand much longer)

You seem to have some very particular doomsaying going on there. Elaborate please.

 grouchoben wrote:
The four strengths of DW as they stand (and they will not stand much longer) outside of their unique units are the Teleportarium strat, special ammo, the anti-xenos strats and the +1 to wound strats.

- DS'ing Leviathan and friends is still scary and flexible.
- Hellfire is one of the strongest weapon options in the game, and now DW have doctrines T2 DS squads spitting out a tonne of -1 hellfire is very strong.
- The xenos strats are a mixed bunch but very strong in the right matchup.
- +1 to wound strats are money, pure and simple.

The teleporting dreads are whats drawing me in (along with veterans, hoping they stay the same or improve rather than get legended).

Special ammo too. Same hopes.

+1 wound is ok but its 2CP with limits, instead of the 1CP no limit that other armies get. Dunno why.

Niiru wrote:

The teleporting dreads are whats drawing me in (along with veterans, hoping they stay the same or improve rather than get legended).

Veterans are a plastic kit that have already been re-boxed for 9th. They're not for a moment going to Legends.

Niiru wrote:

+1 wound is ok but its 2CP with limits, instead of the 1CP no limit that other armies get. Dunno why.

Codex creep. Plain and simple. Deathwatch rules are two years older than anything other armies are using.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

The teleporting dreads are whats drawing me in (along with veterans, hoping they stay the same or improve rather than get legended).

Veterans are a plastic kit that have already been re-boxed for 9th. They're not for a moment going to Legends.

Niiru wrote:

+1 wound is ok but its 2CP with limits, instead of the 1CP no limit that other armies get. Dunno why.

Codex creep. Plain and simple. Deathwatch rules are two years older than anything other armies are using.

My concern is that if gw are releasing the primaris line as an answer to chapter house, this would mean their approaching goal is to sideline oldmarines and have primaris be the new space marines. So oldmarines would get legended eventually. Which means no deathwatch vets, which are 90% of what makes deathwatch interesting. (the chances of them giving the primaris kill team access to storm shields and frag cannons seems slim, unless they release kits for it)

Niiru wrote:

My concern is that if gw are releasing the primaris line as an answer to chapter house, this would mean their approaching goal is to sideline oldmarines and have primaris be the new space marines. So oldmarines would get legended eventually. Which means no deathwatch vets, which are 90% of what makes deathwatch interesting. (the chances of them giving the primaris kill team access to storm shields and frag cannons seems slim, unless they release kits for it)

This is an entirely unfounded concern, and frankly one I'm really tired of hearing. Vets arent going anywhere.

Sterling191 wrote:

Niiru wrote:

My concern is that if gw are releasing the primaris line as an answer to chapter house, this would mean their approaching goal is to sideline oldmarines and have primaris be the new space marines. So oldmarines would get legended eventually. Which means no deathwatch vets, which are 90% of what makes deathwatch interesting. (the chances of them giving the primaris kill team access to storm shields and frag cannons seems slim, unless they release kits for it)

This is an entirely unfounded concern, and frankly one I'm really tired of hearing. Vets arent going anywhere.

You say unfounded but... GW have been systematically replacing all the firstborn units with Primaris(tm) trademarkable versions. They are currently missing battle tanks like the predator (which have already been announced, and are coming out soon), and a flyer/flying transport. They've filled most/all of the infantry roles, mostly by making a single unit for each role instead of the old way of having one unit that had a bunch of customisable options to let them fulfill multiple roles.

They have also been consistently pointing and power-creeping the Primaris variants of units, so that the firstborn units are now largely the least-optimal option to take. So less and less people are using them, particularly in tournaments. Meaning less demand for firstborn, and more Primaris sales (and more Primaris in peoples armies).

Which is the exact thing a company would do, if they wanted to replace an old line with a new one. If they'd done it when they first released Primaris, it would have been a marketting nightmare. Everyone who used to play marines would have complained. But by the time 10th edition rolls around, there will be enough Primaris in peoples army lists that GW can start legending firstborn units one by one and there will be...

Well people will complain, cos it's 40k and GW so people complain about everything. But it'll be much less of a problem by that point.

Case in point - The Deathwatch lists that are currently the 'best' builds all use the primaris kill teams. Barely any of them even use a single Vets unit.

Very happy to be proven wrong on this though. Extremely happy. I guess we will find out when the codex is released. If they make big sweeping improvements to the Vets unit, and release new firstborn models, then fine. But I suspect what will actually happen is the Primaris killteams will be expanded, and the Vets killteam will remain with overpriced options.

Niiru wrote:



You say unfounded but... GW have been systematically replacing all the firstborn units with Primaris(tm) trademarkable versions.

This is completely false. They've been adding similar battlefield roles from the new range, but it hasnt for a moment replaced anything. GW still makes, sells, and profits from Firstborn kits of countless types.

Niiru wrote:

They have also been consistently pointing and power-creeping the Primaris variants of units, so that the firstborn units are now largely the least-optimal option to take. So less and less people are using them, particularly in tournaments. Meaning less demand for firstborn, and more Primaris sales (and more Primaris in peoples armies).

Again, completely false. There are specific Primaris units that are an issue at present (looking at you Aggressors and Eradicators). But for every one of those, there's a Firstborn option that's not just viable, but equally problematic (say, Grav Devs, or Land Speeders, or the parade of Firstborn dreadnoughts).

Niiru wrote:

Case in point - The Deathwatch lists that are currently the 'best' builds all use the primaris kill teams. Barely any of them even use a single Vets unit.

Do you know why Fortis Kill teams are more prevalent at the moment? Because their rules are better. It's that simple. In a month or two when Vets are the superior option, you'll see the pendulum swing in the opposite direction. I'd really love to hear you justify the squatting of Primaris at that point.

Niiru wrote:

Very happy to be proven wrong on this though. Extremely happy. I guess we will find out when the codex is released. If they make big sweeping improvements to the Vets unit, and release new firstborn models, then fine. But I suspect what will actually happen is the Primaris killteams will be expanded, and the Vets killteam will remain with overpriced options.

This is abject lunacy. Of course we're going to see expanded Primaris kill team options. Deathwatch are two years behind the curve on getting model support, and the edition change is the means by which GW is (at least claiming) to remedy that. That doesnt for a fething moment equate to the squatting of Veterans.

In summation: sod right off with the whole "Veterans are getting squatted" gibberish when they're poised to be Deathwatch's premier unit.