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I have a few question about them, first off of all of them who are alive (four if i right) which one is the strongest and second how powerful are they compared to stuff like emperor or chaos gods? also is there any possibly to there being C'tan?

as far as I know there are four left, the Deceiver, the Nightbringer, The Void Dragon, and the Outsider. They are pretty much the realspace equivalent of the chaos gods.

The the deceiver is the weakest of the 4 but makes up for this by being a sly fether, next is the nightbringer then the void dragon and finally the outsider who is totally insane.

They are powerfull in different ways to the chaos gods in that their powers come from manipulating the laws of the universe rather than totally ignoring them. Going back to that well used quote the C'tan the advanced technology to the chaos gods magic.

I too had wondered if there were any more C'tan. Possibly forming after the War in Heaven, or having being left out from being transferred into a Necrodermis.

Yeah there are probably plenty who didnt side with the necrons, maybe in the ghoul stars?.

The nightbringer is one of the strongest I believe. They are probably the most powerful non chaos creatures in the galaxy. At full power they are easily a match for the emperor, they could wipe out the whole area without any difficulty.

They naturally understand the laws of physics and can use them to control reality around them. They don't exist in the same way as all the other creatures do. Their real "bodies" aren't made of matter and so are nearly impossible to destroy. The C'tan we see are wearing a metal suit (like daemons posses people), when this is destroyed they just escape.

The only known ways to kill them is to destroy the planet they are on with a black stone fortress or for another c'tan to kill them. Most C'tan were killed by each other (the outsider ate a lot of them then went insane) but they appear to have stopped doing that. Since the old ones created the blackstone fortresses in the war in heaven, most (possibly all) have been destroyed. There is currently one held by abbadon but we aren't sure what states it's in. This means it's almost impossible to truly kill a C'tan (There is some fluff about some Ultra marines trapping them in an ice cave and starving them, but that doesn't make sense. Even in their weakened form, they are capable of moving through solid matter so they could easily escape).

As stated already the Outsider is the most powerful of them, but being insane, and hating all the other ones, he doesn't show up much in the lore. The Emperor as far as I can tell was/is more powerful than the C'Tan as he was able to defeat, but not destroy (possibly by his own choosing, but let's not spoil Mechanicus for anyone), the Void Dragon. The only C'tan in the material space are the ones already mentioned as only by the Necrotyr infusing the essence of a C'tan into their living metal can they be brought into the material universe.

The strongest is the Outsider who is insane... also pretty gullible so i guess it balances out.
They aren't equivilent to the chaos gods.
The Ultramarines 4th company freed the Nightbringer by accident.

Personally I think the c'tan are a race of creatures somehow based on bosons rather than fermions , it would explain their intangible nature while obeying physics.

corpsesarefun wrote:Personally I think the c'tan are a race of creatures somehow based on bosons rather than fermions , it would explain their intangible nature while obeying physics.

What now?

purplefood wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Personally I think the c'tan are a race of creatures somehow based on bosons rather than fermions , it would explain their intangible nature while obeying physics.

What now?

Bosons are particles that are able to share quantum coordinates, overlap if you will, they include photons and most force carrying particles. Electrons (a type of fermion) can take on a boson like nature when the entropy in the system is reduced to a critical level resulting in superconductivity (resistance is 0).

Don't the C'tan and the Necrons have access to another reality/dimension? Basically a never ending void, that they phase in and out of, that allows their FTL travel?

*scuttles off to find codex*

Medium of Death wrote:Don't the C'tan and the Necrons have access to another reality/dimension? Basically a never ending void, that they phase in and out of, that allows their FTL travel?

*scuttles off to find codex*

No there is no reference of that anywhere i can find in the codex. They use stupidly amazing tech to just pimpslap the lightspeed barrier rather than dodging it with other dimensions like the eldar, dark eldar and humans do.

corpsesarefun wrote:

purplefood wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Personally I think the c'tan are a race of creatures somehow based on bosons rather than fermions , it would explain their intangible nature while obeying physics.

What now?

Bosons are particles that are able to share quantum coordinates, overlap if you will, they include photons and most force carrying particles. Electrons (a type of fermion) can take on a boson like nature when the entropy in the system is reduced to a critical level resulting in superconductivity (resistance is 0).

You lost me at quantum... the feeling i'm getting is Physics... i'm not very good at physics so lets just say you're right and i can go on living my somewhat simpler life.

purplefood wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:

purplefood wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:Personally I think the c'tan are a race of creatures somehow based on bosons rather than fermions , it would explain their intangible nature while obeying physics.

What now?

Bosons are particles that are able to share quantum coordinates, overlap if you will, they include photons and most force carrying particles. Electrons (a type of fermion) can take on a boson like nature when the entropy in the system is reduced to a critical level resulting in superconductivity (resistance is 0).

You lost me at quantum... the feeling i'm getting is Physics... i'm not very good at physics so lets just say you're right and i can go on living my somewhat simpler life.

yes its physics and I'm sorry for going off on one basicly bosons are particles that can go through eachother and most matter.

Point in fact there are other C'tan they are just trapped inside of The Outsider so if they where ever released somehow there would be more in the galaxy. Now the fluff says that the C'tan started being worshipped as gods and they are called the star gods but it never actually says they are gods in the same way as the Chaos Pantheon. More likely they are incredibly powerfull material beings with a god complex.

Someone said that the C'tan where brought into the material universe by the Necrontyr. This is wrong, the C'tan have always been in the material universe. As beings of energy they simply coulden't perceive it without manifesting physical forms themselves which is where the Necrontyr came in.

The C'tan didn't choose wether or not to join the Necrontyr. The Necrontyr saught to use them as a weapon but when they gave them their material bodies the C'tan took controle and became worshiped as gods. Nothing in the fluff says that the C'tan where given a choice of "do you want a physical body or no?" now that dosen't mean that every C'tan was given physical form.

As far as how they compare to the Chaos Gods and The Emperor the C'tan have absolutly no power or connection to the Warp and beings as the power of the Warp is really the only thing that can affect them I'd say the Chaos Gods are more powerfull in that they can affect both the material and immaterial realms where as the C'tan can only affect the material.

It is true that the Emperor defeated the Void Dragon but that was at the height of his power, he was also at one point the Greatest Psyker in the galaxy which again the C'tans greatest threat is warp energy. Now though I'm pretty sure he would be upgraded from half dead to full dead where he confronted by a C'tan.

As far as a C'tan not being destroyed by being trapped under rock and such it depends on the circumstances. If they had been active for a good while and had regained their former strength then they would have no problem. But if they've been in stasis for millions of years and had just woken up they woulden't be as powerfull and so could easily become trapped and starve to death. This is shown in the Nightbringer novel where the newly awakened Nightbringer lets the Captain and his remaining marines live under the threat of Ventris blowing up 1. the key allowing it to summon it's ship and 2 the chamber they where in that would have been burried under tons of rock which the C'tan would be to week to phase through and without anything to feed on it would die.

The beings of energy line is probably a misconception by GW as this is impossible in all but a metaphorical sense, probably meant bosons.

corpsesarefun wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Don't the C'tan and the Necrons have access to another reality/dimension? Basically a never ending void, that they phase in and out of, that allows their FTL travel?

*scuttles off to find codex*

No there is no reference of that anywhere i can find in the codex. They use stupidly amazing tech to just pimpslap the lightspeed barrier rather than dodging it with other dimensions like the eldar, dark eldar and humans do.

Yeah I don't know where I got that from.

In the codex it's said they have been observed decelerating from incredible speeds. So I would imagine something 'Star Trek' esque.

So we agree there are 4 of them known:

- nightbringer ( grim reaper )
- outsider ( no image yet )
- deceiver ( evil jester )
- dragon ( weirdly having added that "void" without any source to go from )

Actual location:

- nightbringer = free ( unknown )
- deceiver = free ( unknown )
- outsider = considered bound ( unknown )
- dragon = bound ( hinted at Mars )

Specifics of C'Tan:

- pre date the first races. They reform if their shell is destroyed. So "killing" a C'Tan has some special conditions.
- feed on energy, but find life energy tasty too.
- inserted the pariah gene into the human genes and the concept of "fear of death" in most races except (kr)ork.
- are considered as masters of the material plane. ( thus anything tech can solve would be their strength ).
- plan to contain chaos and get rid of space orks and space elfs. Humans are planned as "cattle".
- have a ton of "undead" minions ( Necrons ). Seem to prefer to teleport and repair damaged units.
- ? inspired the mechanicum ? but the only recorded battle of a C'Tan was in a weakened state, power comparision cannot be precisely done.

IMo, the Emperor has a chance if he got enough power, since he beat one of them before.
The chaos gods have no real influence outside the warp, so both may rarely meet on even grounds. In the warp = obvious chaos victory.
In the material realm = advantages for C'Tan, becomes a question of power and readiness of the C'Tan involved.
Certainly a Team of Emperor/C'tan would beat a team of chaos "gods".

There is a book pretty much about the void dragon now, it confirms it is on mars and gives quite a few details about it.

corpsesarefun wrote:The beings of energy line is probably a misconception by GW as this is impossible in all but a metaphorical sense, probably meant bosons.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm but since when has the impossible had any bearing in the 40k universe (Gods formed from psychic energy, mutantsl, aliens, interdemensional portals). The laws of the real world don't apply in a scienc fiction universe.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

corpsesarefun wrote:The beings of energy line is probably a misconception by GW as this is impossible in all but a metaphorical sense, probably meant bosons.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm but since when has the impossible had any bearing in the 40k universe (Gods formed from psychic energy, mutantsl, aliens, interdemensional portals). The laws of the real world don't apply in a scienc fiction universe.

The entire point of the c'tan is that they obey the laws of physics.

And within the physicis of the real world it's impossible as far as we know yes. But is there a standard of physics within the 40k universe? if there is I haven't seen it.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Point in fact there are other C'tan they are just trapped inside of The Outsider so if they where ever released somehow there would be more in the galaxy. Now the fluff says that the C'tan started being worshipped as gods and they are called the star gods but it never actually says they are gods in the same way as the Chaos Pantheon. More likely they are incredibly powerfull material beings with a god complex.

Someone said that the C'tan where brought into the material universe by the Necrontyr. This is wrong, the C'tan have always been in the material universe. As beings of energy they simply coulden't perceive it without manifesting physical forms themselves which is where the Necrontyr came in.

The C'tan didn't choose wether or not to join the Necrontyr. The Necrontyr saught to use them as a weapon but when they gave them their material bodies the C'tan took controle and became worshiped as gods. Nothing in the fluff says that the C'tan where given a choice of "do you want a physical body or no?" now that dosen't mean that every C'tan was given physical form.

As far as how they compare to the Chaos Gods and The Emperor the C'tan have absolutly no power or connection to the Warp and beings as the power of the Warp is really the only thing that can affect them I'd say the Chaos Gods are more powerfull in that they can affect both the material and immaterial realms where as the C'tan can only affect the material.

It is true that the Emperor defeated the Void Dragon but that was at the height of his power, he was also at one point the Greatest Psyker in the galaxy which again the C'tans greatest threat is warp energy. Now though I'm pretty sure he would be upgraded from half dead to full dead where he confronted by a C'tan.

As far as a C'tan not being destroyed by being trapped under rock and such it depends on the circumstances. If they had been active for a good while and had regained their former strength then they would have no problem. But if they've been in stasis for millions of years and had just woken up they woulden't be as powerfull and so could easily become trapped and starve to death. This is shown in the Nightbringer novel where the newly awakened Nightbringer lets the Captain and his remaining marines live under the threat of Ventris blowing up 1. the key allowing it to summon it's ship and 2 the chamber they where in that would have been burried under tons of rock which the C'tan would be to week to phase through and without anything to feed on it would die.

Cappy and friends should have blown the charges.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:And within the physicis of the real world it's impossible as far as we know yes. But is there a standard of physics within the 40k universe? if there is I haven't seen it.

Yes there is and without warp influence is it the same as our own for the most part.

Then quote it so that we can all know the standard of physics in the 40k universe. Especially considering the 40k universe is a science fiction universe and the definition of science fiction is

Literary fantasy involving the imagined impact of science on society

. You may note the word imagined which referances discoveries that have not yet been made in the real world or cannot be made in the real world.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:Then quote it so that we can all know the standard of physics in the 40k universe. Especially considering the 40k universe is a science fiction universe and the definition of science fiction is

Literary fantasy involving the imagined impact of science on society

. You may note the word imagined which referances discoveries that have not yet been made in the real world or cannot be made in the real world.

No you have brutalised the definition, the impact is imagined not the science. Plenty of SciFi uses science as we know it today but in different ways and we can clearly see that 40k uses our physics by observing the fact that it has gravity and the electromagnetic force as well as the same restrictions on FTL travel and the same relations between force energy and mass.

Which means that while the physics within a science fiction setting may be inspired by real world physics they are not the same as that is the whole point of science fiction, it is not bound within the confines of the real world. In the 40k universe the physics exist for beings of energy to exist.


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Really? the science isn't imagined? so we have weapons that can disentigrate people by stripping them down one atom at a time then? We have interdemensional tunnels that would allow us to travel huge distances in short periods of time? How have I not heard of these unimagined advances in technology. I mean if I've burtalised the definition as you say (doubt it) and the science isn't imagined instead of the impact then every piece of technology that exists within the 40k universe and dosen't have a direct effect on the warp exists today in the real world. Remarkable how I wasen't aware of this before.

The Dragon is the most powerful of the C'tan, and by that I don't mean of the surviving four but it has always been the most powerful as we are told in 'The Cripple and the Dragon'.

As to the science, whilst it is a Warhammer novel, Temple of the Serpent descibes a Slann contemplating the world and the living things within it as equations within the Great Math created/used by the Old Ones, with creatures like the Skaven or the Chaos Powers seen as fractals that damage the purity of the Great Math. This gives the Slann great power to re-order the world as it sees fit by altering the equations. Perhaps in their own way the C'tan do the same thing creating effects that seem impossible or like magic but which to such vast intelligences are quite simple feats.

The emperor actually only beat the void dragon after he was severely wounded by the Black Stone Fortress.

How can the C'tan escape the outsider? HE ATE THEM drained them of there lives, it doesnt explain anywere there is any possiblity of thos C'tan coming back. Just wishful assumption at best. AND it is hinted the the outsider locked himself inside the dyson sphere in the southern most part of the galaxy in his maddness.

Im sorry if you believe 40k applies real hard physics to there fluff then you are mistaken. In a galaxy with magic, psykers, and hell dimensions you honestly believe they are going to go the extra mile to make sure that the C'tan use real justafiable science to explane the supernatural things they do... you must be high. Look up the tyranid narval organizm for me and explain to me how that works in actualy non science FICTION.