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Agamemnon2 wrote:My vote's on GW. Chapterhouse is a parasite, and will likely be forced out of business by the current legal action. I will shed no tears.

Would you call Goodyear, Bridgestone and Michelin parasites because they feed on car customer's needs?
Would you call all aftermarket products illegal and worth to be forced out of business?
Are you aware that in all legal systems, aftermarket products are not illegal per se?

Hulksmash wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:Chapterhouse is a parasite

Just curious but how do you see companies like Battlefoam then? They're making money by producing accessories for GW stuff that GW don't offer....

This is actually completely different. They are making a storage product for all miniatures. Do they use specific terminology on some of their shapes? Yep. But they aren't using iconography or producing something GW itself produces or is an add-on to GW product. It's a seperate product entirely which is also the distinction (at least I think )

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440149a&rootCatGameStyle=gaming-accessories

They didn't copyright arrows, fists, dragons and wolves either.
BTW GW started with a range of aftermarket products for D&D, back in the days when WD was an independent miniature and RPG magazine.

BTW have a look at this Battlefoam page:
http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?category=11
Then count the non-marked GW IP references of these GW aftermarket products.
I think it is of exactly the same if not worse level as the former Chapterhouse website.

Hulksmash wrote:@Kroothawk
GW can claim that it invented the "Tervigon". GW can't claim they invented foam. I see it as a distinction but I could be wrong. Battlefoam doesn't have a single 40k related image on it's website (that I can recall) where as chapterhouse had quite a few including that picture with the walker w/tau models underneath it.

Do I get you right:
1.) Naming a product a "Tervigon conversion kit" is illegal and stupid and parasitic, because GW can claim that it invented the "Tervigon" (plus perhaps can claim to have invented toy soldiers but not foam).
2.) Naming a product "DARK ELDAR WYCHES FOAM TRAY" ( http://battlefoam.com/catalog.php?item=471&catid=11&ret=catalog.php%3Fcategory%3D11 ) is okay, because that name is obviously generic with no connection to GW products.

@Hulksmash:
Well, I did it extensively in the other thread, but here you are:

1.) What is really going on is blurred by the fact that GW's lawyers have obviously no idea what they are talking about ("Carniflex", sueing the wrong sculptor, claiming the Superheavy is a copy of a GW product). As seems usual for US lawsuits, they throw everything they can imagine at whoever they make out as a target, hoping that the others are shocked and awed, settle this out of court and do things they are not legally bound to do. Given the US law system favoring the rich, this might work.

2.) GW's legal position seems to be that all conversions are illegal in principle, but not sued if done with GW parts and for private use only. This position and this specific lawsuit imply that GW sees every aftermarket for their products as illegal and endangering "the hobby". I am convinced that they can't convince any court that an aftermarket is illegal per se, even if they claim their plastic toy soldiers to be luxury products or art.

3.) The aftermarket enriches "the hobby", provides many products GW will never make and some, GW will eventually make. Some people started 1000 Sons or Salamander armies just because of non-GW bitz making it possible, with GW profiting the most. Even non-GW Tervigon or HPA models are used in GW armies, with most people preferring the official model or even buy it in addition to the unofficial one (being usable for tourney, better fitting the official design and often even being cheaper). Personally I have 2 non-GW HPAs and will buy the GW one as well, same with the Tervigon. Claiming that the dominant GW has any economic damage by the aftermarket is ridiculous. The opposite is true. BTW, GW started with aftermarket products for D&D.

4.) It is a hobby that should encourage creativity among kids and adults, the more the better. Sending lawyers out to bully around, hunt down small aftermarket companies and decrease the diversity of "the hobby" is not helpfull and eventually damaging GW's reputation as a toy soldier manufacturer.

5.) Of course GW has a right to sue copies of their products and designs. In Germany, it takes at least 10% creative changes to make it not a copy. Chapterhouse products show considerable more creativity than that or use generic non-copyrighted symbols like arrows, fists, dragons or wolves. I don't care how the products are called and how much TM, C, or other signs are added, as long as the products are available. As only advanced gamers use these parts, there is absolutely no danger of mixing it up with official products, whatever they are called. Same with Battlefoam and all other aftermarket companies.

6.) If GW continues to go the despot way and fire creative minds (Rick Priestley et al), muzzle the remaining staff, tolerate mismanagement by managers not familiar with the toy industry, ignore marketing, ignore sales and customer number decline, ignore customer feedback, and bully everyone in the toy industry, they deserve the image of the "bad company" and deserve the decline. GW is strong enough to go the freedom loving way though, freeing their staff of current chains and encouraging creativity in their own company and in the aftermarket as well, making everyone and "the hobby" profit from it. This is called synergy.

That's about it.

filbert wrote:The point being is that there is enough pie to go around (and plenty of pieces of pie that GW don't want to bother with) without them having to jump to legal factor 10 and sue everything in sight.

Actually, making Space Hulk a limited edition, only sold in GW stores, has lost GW more profit than all aftermarket sales combined

insaniak wrote:Here's the thing, though: Couldn't you also say:
Starting a company producing aftermarket parts specifically targeted at the customers of a particular game owned by another company and marketed as being parts for that game by skirting as closely as you can around IP laws, rather than producing a new and unique game and miniatures range of your own decreases the diversity of "the hobby" and is eventually damaging to GW's reputation as a toy soldier manufacturer due to your inferior product being marketed as a part of their game?

That's essentially the angle that GW are taking on this. It's not about stifling creativity. It's about people making things for GW's games when they have no legal right to do so.

Counterquestion: Should all computer game companies sell their games together with their own computer operating system?

1.) I don't care if Reaper, Rackham, Privateer, Mantic, Avatars of War and who else invent another small skirmishing game, often written by a former GW employee. I use their miniatures for Warhammer and 40k (plus RPGs). Not every local gaming community is large enough to have enough gamers for 15 different tabletop rule sets (or people rich enough to buy rules for 15 different games and good enough to memorize all of them). GW games are the most widely spread standard for tabletop games, whether they are perfect or not. So I use these.

2.) I buy a lot non-GW models and conversion parts. And that is not to save money, as I also use Forge World models. I buy them for their quality and creative achievement. This includes products I bought from Chapterhouse. I can assure you that some have better quality than GW or FW products. Hey, even Daniel Cockersell from Forge World made a Chimera for Maelstrom Games in line with Beatman and Skaven monster stand-ins, probably because higher up managers prohibited it to be sold within GW/FW/Warhammer Forge.

3.) If you think that noone has the legal right to sell aftermarket products, look at the tires of your car and think again. Saying that Goodyear should build its own cars instead of leeching on Ford's popularity is not a valid argument nor even a sound legal advice.

Amaya wrote:According to lawyers all areas of law are murky.
I really don't see the issue with just selling aftermarket goods that require a product from X company that X company does not produce. Everyone benefits.
The issue with CHS is that they are making stand alone products and using copyrighted images.

Well, there is no question that selling aftermarket products is NOT illegal per se.

And AFAIK there are only 2 stand alone products by CHS currently, and both don't resemble anything by GW.
And I am not aware of any GW copyrighted image on the CHS website.

Mr Mystery wrote:In the words of former British Prime Minister...put up or shut up. Or at least admit you asertation is merely personal opinion?

Well, difficult to give exact numbers of an alternative timeline.
But doubling customer numbers outside UK with standard marketing tools is a piece of cake.
Just ask how many veterans were drawn into 40k by last editions Space Hulk/Space Crusade. MB's marketing worked!
And it's no secret that current creative staff feels hog-tied by higher management.

Need another example: Dissolving Black Industries when their newest product line (Dark Heresy) just sold out before release. Now IIRC second biggest RPG line. Also millions of certain dollars lost for no reason at all. Instead they spend huge resources for keeping sales limited to a small declining niche, firing good people left and right just to prevent natural growth of the market.

Was it a GW die?

Did GW ask Fox Studios to make an Aliens board game called SpaceHulk with inferior copies of Giger's Aliens, just to leech on Aliens' popularity?

BTW GW DID go this third party licencing route once, when GW made almost no vehicles and a.o. Forge World USA got a licence. They were too successful, so GW retracted the licence, and in the end even stole the name of the licensee.

But it's obvious to everyone that Genestealers are blatant copies of Aliens and Space Hulk an Aliens boardgame.

Nothing wrong with being inspired by colleagues, if you add some creative content instead of make an exact copy. Blizzard and GW are famous for using every popular idea present in SciFi or Fantasy, so is the aftermarket. This is standard practice in the SciFi/Fantasy market, with GW creative staff being the first to admit. Creates synergies and wealth of ideas. No problem until managers and lawyers from outside enter the scene and start fighting free exchange of ideas.

Ever seen the first Alien movie? Or the last 30 minutes of Aliens? And saying the corridors are not on a planet but on a huge space ship doesn't make much difference, right?

@djones520: A ribbed Alien running through space corridors, hunting humans to infect them with genes to create offspring, does that ring a bell?

And O'Bannen doesn't count, as the Alien was designed and copyrighted by the artist H.R. Giger, a very distinctive and original design that has become popular and is often copied.

Mr Mystery wrote:But this is categorically NOT what CH have been doing. They've been using the trademarks and IP of another company to advertise their wares.

This is called aftermarket and not illegal per se.

Dysartes wrote:"Exact copy of" is stretching it somewhat, brettz123, given none of those are actually identical products.

I wouldn't use the word "stretching", I would use the expression "blatant lie to intentionally harm Chapterhouse".

But I agree: If Games Workshop actually invented the arrow and copyrighted it, many people in the world are in trouble

GW demands the moulds to be destroyed, not just the words and advertising to be changed. So they claim that all the products are illegal.
And, as said, Battlefoam also names, categorizes and advertises its products with GW names, not even marking those as trademarks or copyrighted.

In other words: "to scare the whole aftermarket out of business by claiming aftermarkets to be illegal per se".

Mr Mystery wrote:I'm of the opinion CH knowingly and deliberately used IP not their own to generate profits. Whether people agree with me is not important. It's just an opinion, not a statement of fact.

Is it also your opinion that all aftermarket products are illegal and advertising them is a breach of IP? That arrows, fists and dragons in all forms are IP of GW?

... but a good attempt at putting words in my mouth

Mr Mystery wrote:Well, seeing he's been pretty determined to dance around the point that CH very much appear to have breeched IP, in favour of portraying GW as some vicious corporate entity.... My suspicions are not unjustified.

I asked you to give an example for an IP breach in the products that justify all CH moulds to be destroyed, but you seem not be able to give one.

Khestra the Unbeheld wrote:GW is 90% certain to win this one if their lawyers aren't total idiots.

Mr Mystery wrote:No, but it does make it unwise in the extreme to test that particular water, as I suspect GW know a lot more than we do about Copyright and IP Laws.

Are we talking about the same GW that is obviously sueing the wrong sculptor for the super heavy?

BTW Ford doesn't sue Goodyear for mentioning which tire fits which car. So GW is doing something special.

Still dancing around the fact that GW doesn't own the IP on arrows, fists and dragons? But implying with the Ford example that CH puts "Games Workshop" on their products?

Polonius wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:Indeed. The context of 'pre-heresy' armour is GW's IP, as in terms of wargaming, pre-heresy is distinctly 40k.

I really don't mean to pick on you, but you should post "Disclaimer: I don't know anything about IP law" in every single one of your posts. Somebody might actually listen to something you say.

Thanks for bringing some reason into this thread.

Maybe you can answer a specific question that is relevant here:
GW claims to have either R, C, or TM on the word Tau (relevant as one walker was said to be used with Tau):
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=4&aId=3900002&multiPageMode=true&start=5
On the other hand I can't find any real reference to that IP protection (e.g. here http://www.warrealm.iwarp.com/ and here http://www.hiveworldterra.co.uk/GWtm.html ) and remember that it was far too generic to be IP protected, therefore the name change to "Tau Empire". If they claim something false like that, is this illegal and would it have influence on the lawsuit?

And if GW wins, their prices won't rise? Cute!

BrotherStynier wrote:Chapterhouse, high quality products? Thats a laugh.

I am not laughing, I just made another order, and not to save money, but for the quality.

Kilkrazy wrote:I'll check the quality for myself when I get my Tervigon conversion kit next week.

Then we can compare our results: Also ordered a conversion, just to add variety to my two Russian ones (CH's will become the HQ Tervigon).

Panic wrote:yeah,
voted GW.
IMO, Crapterhouse are a bunch of leaches damaging the reputation of this hobby with sub standard bits.
Panic.

Chapterhouse wrote:My salamander space marine army with tons of Chapterhouse Bits and conversion piece won "Best Looking Army" at BOLScon in 2009, this was out of 250+ armies. So either the judges were blind or some people have a biased opinion against CH for other reasons.

Guess, panic was blinded by the awesomeness of these high quality GW sculpts:

Aduro wrote:I am ashamed of you Kroothawk. How can you post a list of GW failings like that, and not include the Lord of them all? The great and mighty Nagash!

Was intentional, as I only included the newest models of units in current army books (although I DID search for the last metal Possessed), didn't want to be unfair and include old stuff.

Eldanar wrote:I'm curious as to who made that Doom...er...whatever it is?

The Alien Larva Brain is done by Trollforged: http://trollforged.com/shelf_sci-fi_Aliens.html

It is an updated version of the following Trollforged Alien Brains:



And here is what I made from CH bitz and a 2nd edition Hive Tyrant, my new Alpha Warrior (left):

Hope we can get back on topic again, even when it's only the usual "I hate aftermarket" posts.
This is a thread about a specific lawsuit, not the Chapterhouse customer support thread for a specific order complain.

WillyBRags wrote:nah you are right chapterhouse, I posted on here because I wasn't actually going to submit anything to your company about an order, because I honestly don't expect anything to be fixed, sadly the person who made the order deleted the order number, but I'll hopefully send you some pictures of what is wrong, and you guys can touch up your molds a bit, so whenever someone else orders that same product, atleast it won't be flawed for them

I don't say you are wrong, but this "Hi send me free bitz at once or I will flame you on a big internet forum. No I didn't order from you, but a friend, who by chance deleted all records of that order" sounds a bit suspicious to say the least. So if a business is a bit reluctant to comply, that is understandable.