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I play neither Dark Eldar nor Tyranids. I am however considering building a Xenos force and want to know which is more ruthless in the assault. I think that DE get where they need to be faster, but Tyranids are just overwhelming in the number of sheer bodies they can bring..

This belongs more in the Tactics or General Discussion forums than YMDC.

Dark Eldar is a more advanced army to play and collect (although the models are fabulous). The Tyranids are also a bit more subtle than they used to be. As a pure lb for lb assault force though, I would go with Tyranids.

They both rule in assault because they don't do it the same way. Tyranids are a horde army choking their opponent's guns with bodies where Dark Eldar are a surgical stirking elite force that strikes, obliterates and moves on.

As a tyranid player i think genestealers with toxin sacs will always be king of the assault phase, as long as they can get to their target with enough numbers in tow.

The dark eldar, however, are good in CC to be sure, and are also able to actually HIT what they shoot at, with lots of s8 and poisoned weaponry.

I think at a tournament level, DE will come out over 'Nids more often than not. It all depends on the scenario, win conditions, the generals, and of course, the dice.

Between the two I'd say Blood Angels and Space Wolves are both stronger in close combat.

Tau are of course king of assault, with guard coming a close second.

The thing you gotta remember with DE is the "Glass Cannon" concept.

You're going to smash crap up in assault, but if you get shot out of those transports, or are clogged up by a bunch of Monstrous Creatures or whatever, you're going to be cut down. I can't count the number of times I've killed Wyche squads just by killing the transport that went Flat Out the turn before.

Tyranids on the other hand can survive getting shot up, whether through swarms or monstrous creatures, and they'll still be able to smash things in Close Combat, even if they've been bloodied.

Guard isn't that bad tbh...

But like SumYung said, both DE and nids are different. DE work on the basis that most things counter a certain thing. Incubi go after HIgh Armour saves, Wracks after lows and Wyches against either very elite or very basic troops. DE also have basic fnp if they kill a squad while nids need to rely on a psychic power.

Nids are a horde, with gants able to handle most things that they outnumberer (if they have fnp) and MCs and warriors can handle the rest. They also have alot more supporting abilities so that even that basic gant can get very very strong. They lack in speed compared to the DE but make up for that with lots of bodies.

Neither...


WAAAAAAGGHHHHH!!!!!!!

Just figure out which codex remake is more recent and go with that army.

Works all the time.

MisterMoon wrote:Neither...


WAAAAAAGGHHHHH!!!!!!!

Wot dat git said.

Dem bugz and dark panzees ain't no match for da boyz in a scrap! Hurr hurr hurr...

Neither. Chaos Space marines are the best

I haven't noticed any extreme aptitude for tyranids in assault, but what with DE having poisoned stuff, I'd say they're the masters. They can't really handle anything though.

Horde wrecks them, as do MEQ units. They can handle things like assault marines and tau, but against orks and csm, they fall apart.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Neither. Chaos Space marines are the best

I haven't noticed any extreme aptitude for tyranids in assault, but what with DE having poisoned stuff, I'd say they're the masters. They can't really handle anything though.

Horde wrecks them, as do MEQ units. They can handle things like assault marines and tau, but against orks and csm, they fall apart.

Orks will only wreck them if you are building a Dark eldar Assaulty list(i.e. heavy on the wyches) Fast, Shooty DE will wreck Orks, guard, and Nids.

I agree that DE will have difficulty with MEQs, unless they bring 3 units of incubi(Basically tailor their list towards anti-MEQ) and even then difficulty will be had.

grayspark wrote:The thing you gotta remember with DE is the "Glass Cannon" concept.

You're going to smash crap up in assault, but if you get shot out of those transports, or are clogged up by a bunch of Monstrous Creatures or whatever, you're going to be cut down. I can't count the number of times I've killed Wyche squads just by killing the transport that went Flat Out the turn before.

Tyranids on the other hand can survive getting shot up, whether through swarms or monstrous creatures, and they'll still be able to smash things in Close Combat, even if they've been bloodied.

Umm... If you wreck a vehicle that went flat out during his movement on your shooting phase it does not destroy the unit. The only time the unit is destroyed this way is if during their own movement phase the vehicle moves flat out, and they wreck their vehicle.

Back to the OP. IMHO Space Wolves rule the assault phase, BUT if I had to pick between just DE or Nidz I would go Nidz. You can rape the DE vehicles and Stealers with sacks is amazing. I like them with talons too.

Orks.

But also DE > Tyranids as well.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Orks will only wreck them if you are building a Dark eldar Assaulty list(i.e. heavy on the wyches) Fast, Shooty DE will wreck Orks, guard, and Nids.

I disagree with that assessment of that build's effectiveness against Orks. Lootas and Kan Rokkits make short work of AV10, open-topped vehicles. Hell, even the big Shootas in your Shoota Boy squads have a shot at doing something.

Against Guard and Nids I think they'd have a pretty good chance though.

Considering orks have the numbers to run down space marines and the power to kill hordes I have a healthy respect for them. Most armies have 1-2 units I don't want to tangle with. DE have wyches and incubi for example. As a BA player I can say that orks have a lot of units I'd just as soon shoot to death.

Orks are a pain in the butt for me, even when my run of the mill unit is getting something like 40 attacks on the charge. I can only imagine how poorly DE would fair =/ But DE are indeed a glass cannon, so it's all up to the player.

I think that Point for Point in the assault phase, there is no better army than the Chaos Demons...


their units have an absurd number of attacks and good statlines and rending or power attacks. They HAVE to wreak face in assault, because their special deployment rules and lack of assault transports prevent them from charging and will make them get shot up a lot before then can deal damage.


Blood Angels Death Company (with a chaplain of some sort) are up there as well. Again you have a very strong unit on the charge, but it is much less so when it is charged, and it has the huge disadvantage of RAGE.


There are many other troops that are good in assault, but they do not have other disadvantages so they will cost more points for the close combat power.

DE have the tools to handle anything, assuming you brought them.

Hordes causing grief? Hit them with liquifier guns, and razorwing jetfighter missiles (and you only need one, since each one can fire 4 S6 or better Missiles with large blast at 48 inches).
Got a unit that your assault guys aren't really wanting to tangle with (like nob bikers, zerkers, storm shield guys, or big MCs/Dreds) you can shoot it to death with poison and S8 lance weapons (or S6 melta lances lol)
Want a character duel to show off your armies potential? DE will probably hit your opponent a number of times (and with ID weapons might kill it outright) before even getting hit back, and those hits they do receive will mostly bounce off of shadowfields or clonefields.

Not being too familiar with the new DE, besides having read their new codex through one time or two, all i can say is that they do come off as a very potential army in every offensive aspect.

As a 'nid player, though, i can assure you that they hold theirs in the assault phases. The 'nidz got everything in assault that they lack in firepower (not that they aren't capable to some degree).
I've had many games where i've been on the brink of totalt annihilation, having almost everything systematically shot to bits (Reserve-based 'nidz anyone?), and landing victory by getting a one and a half squad safely into assault.

A nidz succes is determined by how he deploys, and hence the amount of larger creatures that lives to fulfill it's task(s).

DE and 'Nidz compared, both got their share of agility in form of good initiatives and decent WS'es.

The thing that makes the 'nids superior in assaults, though, are MCs toughness 6, that lands most MEQs that infamous 6+ to wound-throw, psychic powers/buffs such as FnP, Old Adv. (any unit 6" from any HT may reroll failed to hit), and lash whips (BTB models initiative reduced to 1).

DE's, on the other hand, stands - by FAR - taller on the shooting, and may proove to be alot more suited in thinning out most armies units (Just learning that anything with splinter in it's name has got poison made me shiver!).

Interesting to see the comments re DE weakness against MEq, given how many gazillion MEq armies are out there. In the tourney scene, we'll perhaps see DE armies beng weighted towards their better anti-MEq units (whatever they are)?

Ok, so though both Tyranids and DE have their strengths and weaknesses RE: assaulting, it seems that most people's opinions is that for pure assaulting, Nids have the upper hand (makes sense since the Nids have limited shooting capabilities compared to DE).

Overall, would it be fair to state that DE are a more competitive Codex compared to 'Nids (mainly because of its' being the most recent Codex), or is there disagreement here?

I agree with your sentiment davidgr33n, but not on the basis that it's a more recent codex. The Tyranid codex just has some horribly glaring flaws (assault codex without assault grenades as one example). The Dark Eldar book does not seem to contain anything so blatantly slap-you-in-the-face obvious. Not to say it doesn't have drawbacks but for the DE codex they feel more like balancing factors, whereas in the Tyranid codex they feel like a proverbial kick in the balls.

Honestly, I consider this types of threads silly for Assault is an increasingly secondary aspect to 40k as a whole and it's entirely feasible to do armies with no real emphasis on melée whatsoever.

This said, it's easier to build an assault army with Tyranids as most of your options are at least capable of threatening stuff. Even the basic Termagants when buffed are scary for a turn. The fragile aspect of Dark Eldar swings them more in favor of their shooty side as a rule, as the best defense against enemy shooting...is to shoot first.

As much as I love the tyranids, they really did get shafted in 5th edition. The gant is only really good with the force multipling tervigon, and while stealers are really good units the lack of grenades and defense hampers them. Warriors seem to be winners, but the instant death issue is a huge flaw versus most armies with access to s8 attacks.

Compared to the DE Wrack, who when combined with a hom HQ, gets FNP, poision, and furious charge, and you have a unit that gets all the buffs from a tervigon with no tervigon dependance. They are also t4 and have a few weapon options. So the Wrack stacks better than gants, and only loses to the genestealer when dealing with armor thanks to rending.

And when it comes to multiwound critters, the DE assortment of t5 w3+ beasties are far superior to the nids that rely on t4 w3 warriors and raveners. And while the nid's MC are better than the Talos, the DE dont care about MCs as they have vehicles that transport the more effective infantry around. Nothing like using a witch squad to hamstring a nid MC with that 4++ invuln save.

I would have to say the best xenos for CC may in fact be the orks, what with their cheap boyz and elite nobz and MANz, combined with transports that get a nice 4+ cover. DE are close with the 5++ on transports, but lack the av14 transport option, though the dark lance is better for dealing with av14 in return. Also, DE have more power weapon options but lack the raw s9 PK killing that the orks hide so well in their squads.

What 3+ wound critters are you talking about for DE, exactly? Also, those Wracks cost twice the amount of a Termagant unit, and require a Raider to get from point A to B. Likewise the Tervigon spawn-and-run provides the same effective assault range as Grotesques emerging from a Raider. 20" is 20" give or take.

Of course you could tie up a Trygon with Wyches. Or one could throw a sacrificial screening unit in front before shooting the no-consol Wyches...two can play the fgame of pointless theoryhammer...

OK magic, Grotesques are 3 wounds right? And the beast squad and the incubi retinue both have t5 multiwound creatures.

Wracks cost 10, correct? And gants cost 6. So not twice the amount, and they dont require a raider any more than gants require a spore pod--both are 6 inch movers without fleet. But Wracks have the OPTION for a raider, and its a darn good option that nids would love to have.

As for the threat range, Gants from a tervigon do NOT have a full 20 inch threat range, or they will lose the tervigon buffs. By daisy chaining them you can get some extra distance by losing models in cc, but due to the requirement of tervigons to be useful gants really cant afford to outpace their buffs and attack at full strength. Wracks have no such restriction.

Compare 9 Wracks, 1 raider, one hommy. The unit is ~230. 1 Tervigon with buffs + 10 gants is 255. The Wracks are faster, get a s8 ap2 lance, always have all 3 buffs that the tervigon can give, and Wracks wreck gants on the assault just fine. The tervigon is not bad by any means, but if the Wracks use their speed advantage to lock the tervigon and a unit of gants up, the no retreat wounds on the tervigon will add up very fast.

As for Wyches, its not pointless theoryhammer. The wyches 4++ invuln save and low cost is a major blow to tyranid MCs. Add in Raiders that still keep you below the MC's cost, and now you can move really fast (and over screening units!) to boot.

MagicJuggler, I really hope you understand that the Nid book is fairly underpowered as a whole, right?

As for the threat range, Gants from a tervigon do NOT have a full 20 inch threat range, or they will lose the tervigon buffs. By daisy chaining them you can get some extra distance by losing models in cc, but due to the requirement of tervigons to be useful gants really cant afford to outpace their buffs and attack at full strength. Wracks have no such restriction.

- Gants spawns 6" from the Tervies
- Gants can then move 6"
- Gants can then run 1-6"
- Gants can then assault 6"

So between 19"-24" from the Tervigon, right?

But you're right about them (most likely) losing the Tervigon aura in the process. Of course, unless you spawned a decent number of them, and abuse/utilise Unit Coeherency so that at least one of them stays within range of the Tervigon.

Compare 9 Wracks, 1 raider, one hommy. The unit is ~230. 1 Tervigon with buffs + 10 gants is 255. The Wracks are faster, get a s8 ap2 lance, always have all 3 buffs that the tervigon can give, and Wracks wreck gants on the assault just fine. The tervigon is not bad by any means, but if the Wracks use their speed advantage to lock the tervigon and a unit of gants up, the no retreat wounds on the tervigon will add up very fast.

Good point. But on the other hand, the 255 points can also be placed elsewhere. Say; on Genestealers?

As for Wyches, its not pointless theoryhammer. The wyches 4++ invuln save and low cost is a major blow to tyranid MCs. Add in Raiders that still keep you below the MC's cost, and now you can move really fast (and over screening units!) to boot.

Persumed you've buff them up with all sorts of Wargear to a much higher point cost, right? But the argument does hold true on a 1 MC vs. full Wych squad basic - to SOME extend. But it isn't certain all the Wyches gets into CC intact. The 'nidz heavily benefit from having lashwhips and FnP from Catalyst aswell, which might turn the odds around in this case.

Say you get lucky and get all your lil' girlies into assault with a MC, you still have to consider your chances of getting a single wound in;
- First to hit, which is most likely a 4+
- Then S3 vs. T6, which is 6+
- Then the 3+ safe
- Then FnP on 4+

MagicJuggler, I really hope you understand that the Nid book is fairly underpowered as a whole, right?

How so? Please elaborate!

@DavianID: ignoring that said Tervigons can basically pays for itself in more Termagants or at least get a proper package deal, is disingenuous. Also, even if you're taking Tank Shock and secondary shooting into account, improper formation placement resulting in a Tervigons being No Retreated is normally a tactical screwup on the Nid player's part...screening against large charge ranges isn't exactly a novel concept, especially if you've been fighting Orks or old DE.