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Happy New Year All,

I have just got back into 40k again after a long absence so I all of my army lists so far have basically included every model I have as an intro. I know they are probably not the best tactics wise but I have one problem in particular. So far I have only played my mate who has a Salamander army. He always fields a landraider with a squad of termies with thunder hammers and storm shields. He then normally "castles" up with 3 razorbacks (plasma cannons and lascannons) with marine squads in.

My biggest problems has been taking down his beardy squad in the raider. Any advice as to what I should be adding to my army or using at the moment? My last list was:

1 Farseer, Doom, Fortune
5 Dire Avenger inc Exarch
5 Scorpions inc exarch
5 Fire Dragons inc Exarch in Serpent
10 Guardians
1 War Walker
5 Banshees in Serpent
1 Falcon
5 Hawks inc Exarch

Thanks!

I think the normal way to handle a raider with guys in with eldar is pretty straight forward.
1: Boom the raider with lances or firedragons.
2: Torrent them with s6 shuriken weapon (better if doomed)

On a completly different note, Las/plas razorbacks doesn't have cannons, they have TL guns.

I use fire dragons to pop termies. Guided, they can often take down those termies. Alternatively, pop raider using dragons, charge termies with guide and doom banshees.

Use the FD to pop the raider, those FD will most likely get smooshed by thunder hammers shortly afterwards.
Charging in banshees is a bog no-no... Your only S:3, your main strength is the ability to ignore armour saves, but SS/TH termies have a 3++ so your banshees will most likely loose.

On the plus side, they have a charge range of 12" and no ranged weaponry, so you can quite happily back-pedal with units like DA, bikes, WS and use any ranged weaponry like walkers, weapon platforms.

Weight of fire should do alot to these guys, make him take a ridiculous amount of saves and they will drop easily. Doom helps of course.

As said, pop the raider with fire dragons and then hit them with everything you have. DO NOT attempt to engage them in CC unless you just shot them and there's only one left. You will die especially if Vulkan is around. Back pedal if/as needed and pour it on.

Here's one piece of advice from a long time eldar player:

Redundancy.
Redundancy.
Redundancy.
Redundancy.
Redundancy.
Redundancy.


And,

Redundancy.

Never rely on one thing to do the job for you. What happens if those fire dragons are just out of melta range and you can't pop the land raider? Do you have enough S8 missiles or fast moving CC units to help out?

Basically make sure you have two units that can take on one specific type of target... Dragons are obvious for infantry/tank duty, banshees are great for all kinds of heavy infantry, and farseers are absolutely necessary. And perhaps more than 1 in case you come up against a psychic hood or something else.

I would also recommend having more than 5 guys in a squad. With T3 just about anything can force any of those squads to take a panic check. Even with Ld9 it's just too dangerous to lose 1 unit that is the only unit that can take on one other specific enemy type. The exception is if you're meching up everything. Survivability is greatly increased with eldar transports with all their energy fields and other nifty upgrades.

Welcome back to the hobby!

First of all, it may seem beardy, but an assault termie squad in LR is not at all beardy, it is one of the only effective assault units left to SMs.

That aside, you need to pick up a few more models to make an army that will play well. You have sort of a hybrid mech/foot eldar army which doesn't work that well in most cases.

With what you have I would say mech up. Get some more skimmers and play Mechdar, that will give you the mobility advantage.

5 man squads of anything but FDs is bad news. The only other squad that works out OK in a 5 man unit is DAs in a Serpent as they never get out, they just stay inside to make it scoring.

But specifically to answer your question, give your FD exarch a firepike and crack shot and put them in the falcon. This allows him to hit on a 2+ and shoot through smoke or cover. his extra range is also invaluable to ensure you are within melta range. These guys will smoke the LR almost every time you shoot it. Turbo boost their Falcon, next turn the dragons hop out and nuke it.

Don't bother shooting the FDs at the Termies as it is a bad target for them with their 3++. They should always be firing at tanks unless there is nothing left to shoot. The way to kill TH/SS termies is with volume of fire which Eldar do great. Doom them (you can't doom a vehicle either, as one poster said) and then shoot the DAs at them. If you have 10 DAs in a serpent this is a great time to bladestorm and they will do severe damage to the termies. If you can't get 10 DAs, put the guardians with the farseer in the serpent and they can provide the flak. The Hawks, although on the whole a terrible unit, can also contribute here. A better use for them though against your friend, is to use haywire grenades on his vehicles.

Guide units with lower BS as they will benefit from it more than units with a higher BS. Guaridans are great for it as are WWs with dual scatter lasers.

The key is to set up a single turn strike. Position your units so that in one turn you are able to open the LR and kill the termies that pop out. Don't assault them unless you have no recourse as your small squads won't do much. 5 banshees against doomed termies will kill a few of them, but make sure that is all that is left.

Good luck with it. Eldar require a lot of orchestration to win with but in good hands they are still an excellent army. Beef up those squads to 10 man, drop the hawks and get some more serpents to ride around in and you will be good to go.

DO NOT put a FD squad in a Falcon. FDs should always go in a Serpent. At close range the survivability of the Serpent is superior to that of the Falcon and its also cheaper.

Otherwise, doom+bladestorm (and possibly guide) = dead termies.

Chimpsarse wrote:Happy New Year All,

I have just got back into 40k again after a long absence so I all of my army lists so far have basically included every model I have as an intro. I know they are probably not the best tactics wise but I have one problem in particular. So far I have only played my mate who has a Salamander army. He always fields a landraider with a squad of termies with thunder hammers and storm shields. He then normally "castles" up with 3 razorbacks (plasma cannons and lascannons) with marine squads in.

My biggest problems has been taking down his beardy squad in the raider. Any advice as to what I should be adding to my army or using at the moment? My last list was:

1 Farseer, Doom, Fortune
5 Dire Avenger inc Exarch
5 Scorpions inc exarch
5 Fire Dragons inc Exarch in Serpent
10 Guardians
1 War Walker
5 Banshees in Serpent
1 Falcon
5 Hawks inc Exarch

Thanks!

Welcome back to the hobby, you need more troops.
Welcome to 5th edition, you need more troops.
Total # of troops=5 Dire Avengers and 10 guardians, you need more troops.
5th ed missions are very different than 4th ed as 2/3 are objective based where only troops can score and thus win, you need more troops.

So on the topic of TH/SS termies the most popular answer from most Eldar Players is Bladestorm+Doom, preferably at a range between 13" and 18" so the Dire Avengers don't get charged next turn. The best part is Dire Avengers are troops. Just dump tons of regular wounds on them, regular wounds trying to get past a 2+ is easier than trying to get past a 3+ invo. Also keep in mind that with Lysander in that squad it's worth well over 400 points + the 250 from the land raider, it's almost half the guy's army right there.

Your list is also light on long range firepower. If you could out gun the razorbacks he would be forced not to castle up and come to you instead.

Seconded the advice above. Fire dragons + brightlance are some of the best things in the game for popping raiders. For killing termies, you have 2 options generally.

First, doom + dakka. As others have stated if you use dire avengers they can thin the termies from a relatively safe distance--just make sure you place them just outside of assault range. Keep in mind the math involved to expect to kill these guys however. 5 termies, with 6 wounds per failed save, = 30 wounds. If you have doom, this is 40 hits, and thus 60 shots. 60 shots is 30 dire avengers... notice that this is either 3 10 man squads or 2 10 man squads + bladestorm, a very expensive investment.

Second is a seer council with fortune. These guys, with their rerollable 4++ save, do fairly well. At 25 points a piece they better! 3 attacks on the charge, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's, the seer council is a battle of attrition, which the council should win since they are starting off with 10 models usually (and a heftier price tag). If you are taking Eldrad these guys are a good bet, since you cant get Eldrad on a bike and want a decent bodyguard unit.

Edit: I forgot to mention the poor man's seer council: Dire avengers with shields and defend with fortune. While they will not wound on 2's versus the termies, the ability to reduce the termies to 1 attack each, combined with a 5++ rerollable save in CC, means that they can get the job done. Combine with Doom to actually wound the termies, and the 10 man Dire Defenders are not too shabby as a troubleshooting unit.

More fun than competetive: get some wraith guard close to the Marines. They might not have much against the actuall terminators (if they carry shields), but good at destroying tanks and powerarmour, and quite tough against ordinary marines(although far from invincible). The wraith guard might create a nice distraction the marines player have to focus on, to get some other units in for the Terminator kill (agree a bladestorming, guided and doom shoting DA unit would be best). The WG cost much for just a distraction, but they do have some great tankbusting abilities if they get close enough.
Maybe a "not so good" suggestion, but I think WG can have many uses against marines.

Honestly, the easiest thing to do might be to pop the raider, then avoid the terminators while you kill the rest of his army.

On foot, with no shooting, they won't catch or kill eldar.
Go for the other objectives or the units in kill point missions.

I did really well with 2-3 good sized troops, and 2-3 small jet bike units for objective grabbing.

-Matt

Welcome back to the hobby. I suggest you check out the army list section and look to see what Eldar players are running. Multiple small elite units don't work in 5th, so you'll need quite a major overhaul to your army.

For a quick rundown on your list:
Farseer: best HQ, always run 1
DA: Take 10, take Exarch, take Bladestorm, put them in a WS
Scorpions: Leave at home
FD: Run 5, no upgrades, put them in a WS
Guardians: Storm work with maxed flamers in a WS. Defender Guardians suck.
War Walker: Solid choice, run 3 in a squad.
Banshees: Leave at home
Falcon: Leave at home
Hawks: The worst unit in the codex, leave at home

You need a ton more WS and some better HS choices.

As for the Termies, take out the LR with the FD squad and then stay away from them. They can't capture an objective, so just ignore them. Don't waste firepower or manpower trying to kill them, they are just too hard to kill. But, they're WAY slower than you, so avoid avoid avoid!

I agree with the advice given.Take a Farseer and a squad or 3 of DA at full strength.With FD in a WS and as an added extra,a Wraithlord or 2.They should be able to help in popping the Razors and the LR as well as smoking the Termies.

well, id take 2 fortune+doom+stone+spear+witnessing farseers, give mindwar to one, 2 wraithguard troop choice - yep, 10+spiritseer with spear or destructor - add the 1-1 farseers, and 3 wraithlords with lance and sword.
Bright-em a far, fortune ur WGs to force fore on ur WLs.
By the time ur WLs die, ur up close and personall, maybe immod the raider from constant lanceing. 3-4 glance, 5-6 pen. 10 shots, do the math.

a nother variant would be to take two of the following: Fortuneseer+5 WGs, pack 'em in a seprent, rush 'em up the field after guideing ur serpent - reroll4+ cover, nice - the nex turn if ur close enough, pack out and destroy.
A nother and cheaper version is with 5FD+Piked Exa+Fortuneseer - optionally adding 1 or 2 FDs if you have points to spare - take 2 of this, wheel'em up tha lane after fortune and get the party started. Its hard to loose both. Not sayin it youldnt happen but hard. OK this IS just against MEQ. On IGEQ i use more mobile unites. But thats for a nother topic.

So were down to the termies. Wraith army pattern: they survived? U have more squads to hit-em? Time for DOOMDOOMDOOOOOOOM! Well next round anyway. Until then, stay away from those termies. Shoot em if you can with the other guard squad and possibly you have one or max 2 WLs left. Kill'em all, or if he gets to much saves, you still have the lord to cover a bit more than the 6"move 6" assault.
Other version: the same but with s8ap1. to bad you dont deal +D6 wounds with those guns. They do melt ya'know

10 Dire avengers with shimmer shield and defend are fantastic at stopping and killing THSS termies, especially with farseer support. Fortune their 5++ save, doom the THSS termies, and with just the Dire Avengers shooting and assaulting you should win.

pop LR with dragons - idea good - and shoot EVERY THING YOU CAN SPARE on the Hammernators. a squad or two of ww with SLs on em= 3*4*2*2=48 s6 ap6 shots from a long range.
5.76 termies down with 4+ invul - i think thats the stormshield, and i basically dont get why people say better if doomed. You cant doom the termies, cause you cant see'em, until the raiders popped. To pop the raider you have to be in the shooting phase, and to cast doom, you have to be before the movement phase. Kill those termies, or your FD will not last long.
3*60=180*2=380. its a lot of shots vs invul 4+ and for a lot of points, but eldar IS overpriced, compared to other lists.

10 direavengers with shimmershield need to be out of transport to get fortune as i recall, so have to be voulnerable for one round, and i dont like me risking this manover for a 5+ rerollable invul. Kill'em all, before they hit. Shock, Ram, dakka, overkill if need be - i used a whole bladestorm on one hammernator, cause if that got near my DA, decapitation to them. Overkill? Maybe. I survived, he died? Yes. Nmy models 28"+ away? No problem. The problem is to get your FD in 6". If you want do disembark then, you may only move 12" at max. thats 18", way under the hammernators assaultrange of 26". Other ideas include MC, but they are just to voulnerable for enemy countertermies to do any damage to a raider. Can be a way to draw out the termies and then kill'em all, and can be fun, saccing a 155 Av fo kill at least 210, than the raider is still a formidable, but a waisted bunker of 250-260pt. 210+250=460. 460-155. Good deal. You may also use WLs with lances and were getting closer and closer to footdar, with GDs with Warceals and bl platforms.

You can choke them to death to, with causeing diversion with a jetcouncil, aiming your serpents at his other troops as diversion and tricking him to think you want to attack the raider with the council. Keep your serpents in 24", but your council at 18" Or even attack the LR. A good tactic can be to cover all the accespoints with your bikes and spear it to death and hope for only a wreck. They have to get out, but since they cant, so the squad is removed as a casualty. But if he has the turn on you, wha'd'ya think hes gona assault? After the termies are out, turn all your serpents on to the LR, move 12" rotate in position, pack out the DA squads and Bladestorm them to death, while fireing all 4 tl BLs on the raider. If that dont cut.
Now we came to the more costly part, for you wasted a lot of points with the council, but in order to the deathstorm to work, you need to lose'em all. Sad. But that is mostly the function of a jetseer council.

All these tacs are good, but all have problems.

bad idea: get a pack of SH, pray that they survive and assault in with haywire.


DE on the other hand have decent ways to kill off the LR and its cargo. But thats a nother topic to be discussed.

Your fire dragons are the key. 5 melta guns will do the job.

Don't sweat it if they are killed ruthlessly on the following turn. Don't get attached to your models -- they are pieces to play in a game.
Imagine your playing a game of chess. You trade a pawn for a rook, and its a good trade. That's the same thing as trading a 80 point squad of dragons for a 250+ point land raider.
As an added bonus, his termies then need to hoof it on foot, and are vulnerable to scatter laser fire.

In general we prefer it if you don't dig up threads that are over 1 year old. If you could avoid doing so in future please.

labmouse42 wrote:Your fire dragons are the key. 5 melta guns will do the job.

Don't sweat it if they are killed ruthlessly on the following turn. Don't get attached to your models -- they are pieces to play in a game.
Imagine your playing a game of chess. You trade a pawn for a rook, and its a good trade. That's the same thing as trading a 80 point squad of dragons for a 250+ point land raider.
As an added bonus, his termies then need to hoof it on foot, and are vulnerable to scatter laser fire.

in a way, yes, but still need to get the dragons there safely. And THAT is a problem with termies. I'd field normal termies though, if i want to assault then - guess what they got their names from - assault marines are my choice. DSem behind cover and start being mobile next turn. But against mechdar, 2-3 LRs are a big threat, even if they carry Tacmarines. Hard to pop, can contest, cheaper and still packs a punch, and now theres 3 of them. Eldar just doesnt have that amount of dragons and/or lances.

DevianID wrote:10 Dire avengers with shimmer shield and defend are fantastic at stopping and killing THSS termies, especially with farseer support. Fortune their 5++ save, doom the THSS termies, and with just the Dire Avengers shooting and assaulting you should win.

I use that unit above add bladestorm and doom the target and guide them then assault, they have never let me down once...each time I keep thinking how are they lasting this long....maybe add fortune to reroll the 5++ they can tie the snot out of some really heavy units....and in the long run if all goes bad your only out one unit of DAs and maybe one HQ if you keep the Farseer attached. Just my $.02

What kills my Raiders and Termis?

Fortuned Fire Dragons kill the Landraider. Fortuned Dire Avengers with Blade Storm put enough wounds on the Termis that they can't save everything.

Eldrad also pulls more crap out like Mindwar and Eldritch storm.

As far as normal Rhinos and Razorbacks - Warwalkers with Scatterlasers throw enough shots at them to make them useless.

Hate to give any help to the enemy....but the comments above are all spot on.