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So I want to do a Ravenwing army. The full on special ops strike force that moves in quick with bikes and scouts to take out the target. The Space Marines book I could do as White Scars for the benefit of everyone Outflanking, and get access to the Land Speeder Storm for my Scouts. I can't off hand compare it to what I'd get using actual Dark Angels rules because that's apparently about the one Codex I don't own currently. What options/advantages would they get that are not available in the normal marines book, and which one do you think would be better?

No one!!! fair and simple.... DA do not get any advantage for RW .... Use Codex:SM and you will have bikes as troop choices as well for less points and better equipment...

DA dex is good for recycling...

If you've got the points for full squads you can get away with all sorts of wound shenanigans what with those speeders as part of the squads--problem is, they're so expensive that it often IS worth it to take out a biker with a meltagun, shameful as that sounds.

DA is good for propping up tables.

SM for bikes, speeders, and tactical marines.

More elite, or drop-pod type lists might make better use of Space Wolves.

MekanobSamael wrote:If you've got the points for full squads you can get away with all sorts of wound shenanigans what with those speeders as part of the squads--problem is, they're so expensive that it often IS worth it to take out a biker with a meltagun, shameful as that sounds.

The speeder, attack bike and bike squads are all treated as sepparate units for all intents and purposes except FOC.
RW does have scouts so the will be within melta range before Codex SM. However you are limited to 3 or 6 bikes in a squad as opposed to the 3 to 8 bikes in Codex SM. C:SM also does command squads better ect. All in all, C:SM is alot more versitile imo.

Well, I'm starting up a DA force now, the main difference I think is that the DA bikes have scout, 2 special weapons in a 3 man squad, the Attack Bike and Speeder are seperate units bought in the single slot (if you run the "full" squadron or 6 bikes + attack bike), and all are scoring with the MotRW making them "troops"... "neat" I guess, I'm mostly fielding Terminators, but all of the RW bikes have a teleport homer, so I'll likely field a few for that...

Vanilla SM do bikes better.
They too can take 2 Specials in a 3 man squad.
Captain on a bike makes any squad of at least 5 models troops. so just run 5 bike 3 specials & an attack bike, then combat squad em.

Also IIRC the vanilla SM book does them cheaper.

I'm starting ravenwing with the DA book, so that i can use sammy and scoring land speeders.It really comes down to personal choice.

Space Marine bikes are cheaper.

Ravenwing bikes can outflank or scout move (but not turbo-boost during the scout move), and are Fearless. Fearless is probably a disadvantage, all things considered. One of your RW squads can have an old-school apothecary (ignore one wound per turn, including your own turns, so you can ignore a Gets Hot).

Space Marine multimelta attack bikes are the same price as Ravenwing multimelta attack bikes (SM get the Heavy Bolter attack bikes cheaper, but who cares, really).

Space Marine attack bikes can come in squadrons of up to 3, or can be part of bike squads. Ravenwing attack bikes are always loners.

Ravenwing attack bikes can outflank or scout move (but not turbo-boost during the scout move), and are Fearless. Fearless is actually OK on an attack bike, IMO.

SM bikes have to be in bigger units if you want them to be scoring (units of 5+, I think, compared to 3+ for Ravenwing).

IMO they kinda balance out. If you like the outflank/scout option for alpha striking, Ravenwing are your only option. If you dislike the high price of Ravenwing, you need to maximise your attack bike numbers, and minimise your ordinary bike numbers, because the former are FAR more points-efficient for Ravenwing. Probably Ravenwing are the most competitive build in the DA codex right now (which may not be saying much) -- at least, multiple small units Ravenwing (Sammael as HQ choice, and as many 3-man units as you can fit in, each with a pair of special weapons, and each unlocking a multimelta attack bike).

Space Marine is better for this. I was actually reading through my Dark Angels Codex today to discover that they literally suck at everything, Wings included. I already knew that they sucked, but not this bad. Their Bikes are more expensive than Space Marines and must come in either 3s or 6s. Their assault marines are gak because they cost as much as Vanguard Veterans without the bonuses. Their Landspeeders are more expensive, and the Typhoon is better in Codex: Space Marines (although the Dark Angels one is at least a bit cheaper). As for the rest of the codex: Deathwing Terminators are more expensive and can't add units to the squad. Tacticals are the only troops without a special HQ, and must be purchased in groups of either 5 or 10.. Dark Angels veterans are generic, and suffer due to the lack of special-issue ammunition. I justify staying on with Dark Angels because I run Deathwing, but now Space Wolves do that better, too. Oh, and Space Marines gets the Predator, Vindicator, and I believe the Razorback slightly cheaper than Dark Angels. So basically, don't use Codex: Dark Angels. Dual-wing armies still have a niche, but everything else in that codex is just bad.
Edit: Fixed an error regarding special weapons on Ravenwing.

Why bother? Wait long enough and GW will release another space marine codex for you.

Coupla 1500pt lists for comparison:

Ravenwing:
Sammael on jetbike (205)
Ravenwing bike squad: 6-man, 2 plasma guns, apothecary, banner, sarge with power weapon, multimelta attack bike (355)
Ravenwing bike squad: 3-man, 2 flamer, sarge with power weapon, multimelta attack bike (195)
Ravenwing bike squad: 3-man, 2 flamer, multimelta attack bike (180)
Ravenwing bike squad: 3-man, 2 plasma, melta bombs, multimelta attack bike (205)
Ravenwing bike squad: 3-man, 2 flamer, multimelta attack bike (180)
Ravenwing bike squad: 3-man, 2 flamer, multimelta attack bike (180)

That gets you 12 scoring units, 6 multimeltas, 8 flamers, 4 plasmas, a plasma cannon, 28 twin-linked bolters, an OK close combat squad (not great, but OK), and an OK close combat IC, all of it on bikes, all of it (except the IC) capable of either scout-moving or outflanking, all of it Fearless.

A reasonably close, reasonably optimised Marine equivalent:

Khan on Moonfang (205)
5-man command squad on bikes with standard, champ with power weapon and combat shield, 1 marine with power fist and flamer, apothecary (265)
7 Attack Bikes (as a 2-bike squad, 2-bike squad, 3-bike squad) (300)
5-man bike squad with 2 plasma guns & 1 combi-plasma (180)
5-man bike squad with 2 plasma guns & 1 combi-plasma (180)
5-man bike squad with 2 flamers & 1 combi-flamer (160)
5-man bike squad with 2 flamers & 1 combi-flamer (160)

The Marine list has a considerably better CC unit, 1 extra multimelta (but less flexibility in how you use it), only 4 scoring units rather than 12, outflanking for everything (but no Scout Move), 5 flamers and 2 combi-flamers (compared to 8 flamers), 4 plasmas and 2 combi-plasmas (compared to 4 plasmas), and 33 twin-linked bolters (compared to 28). The marines aren't Fearless.

I'd say the 2 lists are both pretty strong, but will play differently, with different strengths & weaknesses.

The RW one is as happy going 1st as 2nd (12" scout move + 12" bike move + multimeltas = a lot of dead tanks if you go 1st), and has a lot more scoring units for late-game objective grabs (and ones that are more likely to stay around despite being shot at, due to being Fearless, so will be available for that late-game objective grab). The Marine one has considerably better CC capability, which can come in handy, though neither list is really great in that respect -- their strengths are going to come from moving and shooting. Oh, and the Marine list only has 9 kill points in, compared to the DA's rather painful 13.

Best bet is to paint 'em up as DA, then use whichever codex you feel like at the time... they have different strengths & weaknesses, as I say. Personally I like the DA variant a lot, if only to be able to see the looks on IG players' faces when I scout move halfway up into their parking lot and then blow it up on Turn 1.

Use the Vanilla Codex, with a Bike Captain and your set, more competitive, just paint them like DA.

Ian you are aware that bike squads can combat squad into 2 units right?

Punisher Gatling Cannon wrote:I'm starting ravenwing with the DA book, so that i can use sammy and scoring land speeders.It really comes down to personal choice.

Vehicles can't Score. Unless the DA book has something that specifically overrides that, the Land Speeders won't be Scoring, even if they're Troops.

The DA codex specifically says both the attack bike and the speeder are scoring... "Neat" I guess, but ultimately fairly useless...

I wouldn't call scoring speeders useless it gives options. I like having the choice to have up to 4 scoring units in one slot.

Shas, DA 6-man bike squads can combat squad into two 3-man units, and SM 10-man bike squads can combat squad into two 5-man units, but I don't reckon either option is especially useful TBH. DA are better off with 3-man squads for the most part; if they ever take a 3-man squad it's to have something that isn't completely rubbish at CC. Likewise with an SM 10-man squad... you'd be better off with two 5-man squads, as each one could take 2 special weapons.

Scoring land speeders *can* come in handy, but they're expensive to unlock (you need a full 6-man DA bike squad to get one), and limited to only the Assault Cannon / Heavy Bolter option. I've experimented with speeder-heavy DA armies (you can get maybe 3 or so 6-man DA squads plus Sammael on his speeder plus a couple of independent speeders at 1500 points) but they're not as successful as multiple 3-man bike units in my experience.

There's always the DIY option: paint them in a color scheme you make up & try both codices to see which you like better.

Aduro wrote:

Punisher Gatling Cannon wrote:I'm starting ravenwing with the DA book, so that i can use sammy and scoring land speeders.It really comes down to personal choice.

Vehicles can't Score. Unless the DA book has something that specifically overrides that, the Land Speeders won't be Scoring, even if they're Troops.

Dark Angels landspeeders bought along with a ravenwing bike squadron, actually do count as troops. And are scoring units, which allows them to hold objects. (Keep in mind this does not include there Fast Attack speeders.)

In the rule book FAQ\erata it states that scout bikes can turbo boost during that first scout move. ;-)

If you get loke a teleport homer or something there you can teleport down with good acuracy. But then that is probably something vanilla SM scout bikers\landspeeder transports do better then DA codex.

:-) Except the DA codex explicitly states that you cannot turbo boost during the scout move for the Ravenwing... Annoying, seems a collection of all of the "down side" of the rule changes...

tedurur wrote:The speeder, attack bike and bike squads are all treated as sepparate units for all intents and purposes except FOC.

You know what? Actually reading the codex is for LOSERS!

Niiai wrote:If you get loke a teleport homer or something there you can teleport down with good acuracy. But then that is probably something vanilla SM scout bikers\landspeeder transports do better then DA codex.

All ravenwing bikes have them--it's a pretty tolerable strategy if your opponent is using a lower-end codex.

pchappel wrote:Except the DA codex explicitly states that you cannot turbo boost during the scout move for the Ravenwing... Annoying, seems a collection of all of the "down side" of the rule changes...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what the errata fixes.

Use the Nilla Codex.... It gives you easier, cheaper supporting units for the bikers!

Aktualy MekaNOb Samael it would fix the regular scouts, but if the DA book specifies it then it does not fix the DA as Codex trumf rules.

That was my assumption, I'd love to be wrong and be able to turbo scout move my RW bikes pre turn 1 for the 3+ cover save and the ability to place the DW squads pretty much wherever I'd like, but with the codex trumping the main rulebook, and no errata on the DA FAQ removing that restriction...

pchappel: "with the codex trumping the main rulebook, and no errata on the DA FAQ removing that restriction"

Actually its specific trumps general. Which 99 times out of 100 is codex trumps main rulebook. The DA codex states that no model may make a turbo-boost move during a scouts move. (Essentially a 4th edition rules reminder) The main rulebook FAQ states that bikes may make a turbo-boost move with a scouts move.

Which is more specific?

Anyway to the OP it is a toss-up: both are far from stellar at CC, and the few models you will gain from cheaper CSM bikes will be lost to failed morale checks in the long run.
Personally go with Ravenwing for bragging rights.

In order of importance, how would you rank these factors...

-Ability to win competitive games

-Uniqueness

-Adherence to your vision of what the army should be doing


Vanilla space marines (white scars would be fine, but probably not khan) would fill the first criteria.

It doesn't get more rare and unique than a dark angel army in this day and age. You'll get major dap just for dusting off that old codex.

For adhering to your vision of aggressive scouts and units of bikes, the vanilla space marine book is almost certainly your best bet. Dark Angel scouts are elites, don't have access to the storm or camo cloaks, and although their bike units might be a bit "better" (better ratio of special weapons and a bike apothecary), they don't have the quality of fast attack and heavy support choices to support bikes like the vanillas do.