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How do you run Deff Koptas, in squadrons or as single models.
In squadrons there is a leadership problem if the unit faces 25% casualties.

A single Deff Kopta with a buzzsaw is a nice disruption unit.

But how do you equip a squadron?

From what I gather almost everybody that uses koptas uses 3 single units, each with buzzsaws (and twin-rokkits if possible). Squadrons, well 5 would sound a better option but that'd get a tad expensive when you put in upgrades.

The idea is that you use your scout move to turbo boost, and then on your turn move 12", fire a TL-Rokkit, then assault with a power weapon.

What you assault is what makes the single deff kopta good... we typically go after things like a devastator squad without a power weapon or fist. Another target would be things like vindicators and predators...

The single Deff Kopta is a suicide unit, It kills a tank or ties up weak shooty units. Then your opponent is force to kill it before it kills another tank.

There are many ways to equip Deffkoptas, not just the suicide Rokkit Buzzsaw version.

DeffKoptas are great to use as flankers, especially if you're going 2nd against a force that is going to do a lot of turn 1 damage against you, and you'd rather not deploy your Kopters. I'll go through a few common ways to deploy them, and their costs and benefits.

- Single Kopta: Equip with Rokkit or Rokkit + Buzzsaw. Unit will never make a morale test for taking wounds until it's dead. If you DON'T give it a buzzsaw, this unit can be a great harasser. A Deffkopta is tough enough that unless you present it as the only target, your opponent is more likely to ignore it in order to fire at something more dangerous. If you give it the Buzzsaw though, you've pretty much guaranteed it will be a high priority unit.

- Two Koptas: Equiped with Big Shootas, two Rokkits, or two Rokkits and a Buzzsaw. Unit will make a morale test when 1 Kopta is dead. However, it is in no danger of not being able to regroup on a failed morale since it will always be above 50% strength. This unit will take some fire, but has good staying power.

- Three or more Koptas: mobile firing platform, arm how you like. Unit will take a lot of fire, but unfortunately you'll take a morale test every time a Kopta dies, and when you fail you may not be able to recover. Probably not advisable unless you are totally out of Fast Attack slots already, and you want more than 3.

In summary, 1 or 2 Koptas is ideal. If you want more than that, you're probably better off with War Buggies that don't need to take Morale tests, but you're limited to 3 in a squad.

5 Koptas can work too (no morale test till 2 are dead, and even then you can regroup), but starts to get a bit expensive.

I agree that your best bet generally is units of 1 rokkit Kopta each, with optional buzzsaw.

Worth consideration (but expensive): unit of 5, differently equipped: rokkits; rokkits/buzzsaw; rokkits/bigbomm; shootas; shootas/buzzsaw. That way you have something a bit like a cheaper Nob Biker unit that sits neatly in a Fast Attack squad...

Another way to use them is to attach a Warboss Biker to them. He adds 3 T6 wounds and a Bosspole. He will prevent the scout move but he does add a significant amount of toughness and killiness.

I run my Koptas with a Buzzsaw and TL Rokkit and take 3 filling up my FA slots! I use 3 in anything 1500+ and 2 below 1500.

I run a squadron of two to supplement my 2 Warbuggy squads. One has a Buzzsaw and the other does not. I use the unit to slingshot my Biker Warboss into a turn 1 Assault for disruption purposes.

At that point why not use a unit of 2 Warbikers and a Nob with a powerklaw... Unless the warboss gains scout...

They always get a 4+ cover save and you still get a 4 wound cushion... In addition, if the Nob is still alive, you can use the equivalent to a lascannon on vehicles instead of an autocannon. The only option you are losing is the ability to scout-boost and assault turn one.

I have 2 Deffkoptas. They scout so that they form a line 2" apart. The Warboss moves parallel to this line (normally he launches from a more innocent unit like a Grot unit) on turn 1, joining the Koptas. Then the unit assaults as one.

Do the Deffkoptas form a line 2 inches apart perpendicular to your long deployment edge? Then the Warboss moves to within coherency of them, joining them and then that unit assaults?

I like it - the lead kopta move lets say 20 inches, the trail kopta is 2 inches behind, plus their bases add another 4 inches - 6 inches total. The Warboss moves 12 inches to get within coherency. The lead Kopta should be within charge range of something, slingshotting the rest of the unit with him.

That is the general gist of it, really. Normally too, the Warboss also deploys parallel to my table edge, before rotating 90* to get an extra fraction of an inch, but the slingshot works quite well for Pitched Battles.

In terms of playstyle... to each his own.

However, when I hear about people doing cheesy things like this (and yeah I've seen this strategy used before) it just makes me shake my head and groan. Lump the "I'm going to start my Landraider facing to the side and then rotate it 90 degrees when I start my turn so that I get 2 inches of free movement" strategy in there with this one, and several others I've seen used.

When stuff like this gets used at tournaments, it's just going to ensure that when / if the Ork Codex gets an update, they'll be spending their time nerfing cheese like this and not fixing Looted Wagons, Zzap Guns, Weird Boyz, etc... We'll be lucky if DeffKoptas keep their scout move at all in the next codex.

This strat is just generally so full of cheese that while yeah, it's legal per the rules, I'd want to smack someone with a Dreadsock for doing so.

There's risk involved in deploying like that. Maybe not so much with a Warboss as he has wounds and not an armor value. Either way though, deploying him aggressively like that does have risk and is not something I would recommend in all circumstances. Id do it though in instances where chances were good I had first turn and there was something on the other side that needed to be hit hard turn one. Manticores, Hellhounds, thunder-fire cannons, missile launcher dev squads and MM attack bikes come to mind.

I would not do the turn move though in order to gain addional movement from a model with wounds. My Biker Boss is huge and it just wouldnt be right do that. An armor value unit - yeah, Id take the turn move. Thats a way more riskier move but does have its benefits in certain circumstances.

Murrdox wrote:In terms of playstyle... to each his own.

However, when I hear about people doing cheesy things like this (and yeah I've seen this strategy used before) it just makes me shake my head and groan. Lump the "I'm going to start my Landraider facing to the side and then rotate it 90 degrees when I start my turn so that I get 2 inches of free movement" strategy in there with this one, and several others I've seen used.

When stuff like this gets used at tournaments, it's just going to ensure that when / if the Ork Codex gets an update, they'll be spending their time nerfing cheese like this and not fixing Looted Wagons, Zzap Guns, Weird Boyz, etc... We'll be lucky if DeffKoptas keep their scout move at all in the next codex.

This strat is just generally so full of cheese that while yeah, it's legal per the rules, I'd want to smack someone with a Dreadsock for doing so.

Well it is legal rules wise and if you know of the strat you can use it too =) The only time I feel bad bout doing the pivot trick is against new players but I explain it before the game even starts.

Jubear wrote:

Murrdox wrote:In terms of playstyle... to each his own.

However, when I hear about people doing cheesy things like this (and yeah I've seen this strategy used before) it just makes me shake my head and groan. Lump the "I'm going to start my Landraider facing to the side and then rotate it 90 degrees when I start my turn so that I get 2 inches of free movement" strategy in there with this one, and several others I've seen used.

When stuff like this gets used at tournaments, it's just going to ensure that when / if the Ork Codex gets an update, they'll be spending their time nerfing cheese like this and not fixing Looted Wagons, Zzap Guns, Weird Boyz, etc... We'll be lucky if DeffKoptas keep their scout move at all in the next codex.

This strat is just generally so full of cheese that while yeah, it's legal per the rules, I'd want to smack someone with a Dreadsock for doing so.

Well it is legal rules wise and if you know of the strat you can use it too =) The only time I feel bad bout doing the pivot trick is against new players but I explain it before the game even starts.

Honestly if you use the pivot trick (specially on a new player) your a TFG instantly. Enjoy the title

KingCracker wrote:

Jubear wrote:

Murrdox wrote:In terms of playstyle... to each his own.

However, when I hear about people doing cheesy things like this (and yeah I've seen this strategy used before) it just makes me shake my head and groan. Lump the "I'm going to start my Landraider facing to the side and then rotate it 90 degrees when I start my turn so that I get 2 inches of free movement" strategy in there with this one, and several others I've seen used.

When stuff like this gets used at tournaments, it's just going to ensure that when / if the Ork Codex gets an update, they'll be spending their time nerfing cheese like this and not fixing Looted Wagons, Zzap Guns, Weird Boyz, etc... We'll be lucky if DeffKoptas keep their scout move at all in the next codex.

This strat is just generally so full of cheese that while yeah, it's legal per the rules, I'd want to smack someone with a Dreadsock for doing so.

Well it is legal rules wise and if you know of the strat you can use it too =) The only time I feel bad bout doing the pivot trick is against new players but I explain it before the game even starts.

Honestly if you use the pivot trick (specially on a new player) your a TFG instantly. Enjoy the title

I cant stress enougth that I always tell a new player about it before the game even starts. Meaning he can take it into account and deploy a little farther back and Its one less trick that a vet can pull on them.

In a way its a community service some might even say that I am a modern day folk hero of sorts =)

The real purpose of the trick is to munch on a foot squad (or the occasional dakka Dread) of importance by the end of your opponents first turn. Rangewise, normally the Warboss will normally not be in range to punch stuff until the first pile-in, after which the extra attacks should swing stuff in your favor. That, or it serves as disruption. That IG blob is screening the Hydra Batteries from a turn-2 assault by your Battlewagon bash? Assault the extreme flank and part the human sea, like Orky Moses.

One can't legally perform the 'pivot trick' with non-vehicle models anyway....

kaiservonhugal wrote:Do the Deffkoptas form a line 2 inches apart perpendicular to your long deployment edge? Then the Warboss moves to within coherency of them, joining them and then that unit assaults?

I like it - the lead kopta move lets say 20 inches, the trail kopta is 2 inches behind, plus their bases add another 4 inches - 6 inches total. The Warboss moves 12 inches to get within coherency. The lead Kopta should be within charge range of something, slingshotting the rest of the unit with him.

This is definitely a great move. Poor opponent who doesn't see it coming.

Its actually a true tactic. I dont think its game winning as the target needs to be munchable by 2 deffcoptas and a warboss. All of which will most likely be unsupported for at least 2 close combat resolutions.

Its also one reason to actually give your Warboss a Bosspole. I wouldnt pivot with my Warboss Biker as he is on a custom base but I would execute this tactic to move within coherency especially if there were multiple Hellhounds, thunderfire cannons or manticores on the table.

I prefer zooom and Boom-

5 deffkoptas w/2l rokkits and bigbomms, either turboboosting on the scout move then firing while enjoying that tasty 3+ cover save or barreling in from outflank and bombing poor innocent infantry lurking in the corners...

Could somebody point me to the rules where one pivots a non vehicle model before moving?

Non-vehicle models can move 360 degrees - they dont pivot like vehicles do. A biker base acts like pivoting when it changes directions.

notabot187 wrote:Could somebody point me to the rules where one pivots a non vehicle model before moving?

I hope not


When I first started orks I used to run 5TLRL mobs... bought some more boys and started to run 3's TLRL and Buzz saw, I was actually quite happy with this set-up - but 160 points is a lot.
I've settled on the suicide kopta for Bw rush - either one or two depending on points left as they are usually taking a spot where I could put 3TLRL warbuggies on the board.
In a kan wall it's usually tough to find the oints but when I do I run a mob of 3 with 1 buzz, 1 KMB insead of a third TLRL - This is because I feel the lose of a re-roll is minor when there's already two tl shots and one's gaining the 3rd wound allocation, as they are T4(5) they are comparable robust with a squadron of 3 Kans and outside of CC almost as effective (55%, 55%, 33% to the straight 50's of Kans.

kaiservonhugal wrote: A biker base acts like pivoting when it changes directions.

It most certainly does not. Non-vehicles have no options for pivoting for extra movement. If any part of a non-vehicle model's base is further away that it's maximum move from it's starting position, it has moved illegally.

hmmm - ok. Ill buy that. That clears up the whole pivoting nonsense.

This still works without pivoting.

The lead kopta move lets say 20 inches, the trail kopta is 2 inches behind, plus their bases add another 4 inches - 6 inches total. The Warboss moves 12 inches to get within coherency. The lead Kopta should be within charge range of something, slingshotting the rest of the unit with him.

kaiservonhugal wrote:hmmm - ok. Ill buy that. That clears up the whole pivoting nonsense.

This still works without pivoting.

The lead kopta move lets say 20 inches, the trail kopta is 2 inches behind, plus their bases add another 4 inches - 6 inches total. The Warboss moves 12 inches to get within coherency. The lead Kopta should be within charge range of something, slingshotting the rest of the unit with him.

One issue with this tactics is that the enemy must be so kind to present a juicy target right opposite to the Koptas.

Jubear wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

Jubear wrote:

Murrdox wrote:In terms of playstyle... to each his own.

However, when I hear about people doing cheesy things like this (and yeah I've seen this strategy used before) it just makes me shake my head and groan. Lump the "I'm going to start my Landraider facing to the side and then rotate it 90 degrees when I start my turn so that I get 2 inches of free movement" strategy in there with this one, and several others I've seen used.

When stuff like this gets used at tournaments, it's just going to ensure that when / if the Ork Codex gets an update, they'll be spending their time nerfing cheese like this and not fixing Looted Wagons, Zzap Guns, Weird Boyz, etc... We'll be lucky if DeffKoptas keep their scout move at all in the next codex.

This strat is just generally so full of cheese that while yeah, it's legal per the rules, I'd want to smack someone with a Dreadsock for doing so.

Well it is legal rules wise and if you know of the strat you can use it too =) The only time I feel bad bout doing the pivot trick is against new players but I explain it before the game even starts.

Honestly if you use the pivot trick (specially on a new player) your a TFG instantly. Enjoy the title

I cant stress enougth that I always tell a new player about it before the game even starts. Meaning he can take it into account and deploy a little farther back and Its one less trick that a vet can pull on them.

In a way its a community service some might even say that I am a modern day folk hero of sorts =)

What ever lets you sleep at night. You can just as easily tell new players about the trick so they know about it. Rather then "lengthy chat about pivot movement" got it new guy? *blank stare* ok let me cheese you on your first game!"

I guess I'm not understanding what the issue is with the Deff Kopta/Warboss issue. There is no such thing as pivoting for extra movement with either of those models, so it's a moot point.

OT: I don't see a big benefit running a larger squad of Deffkoptas. When you start equiping a Deffkopta with the right tools, they begin to get expensive and are still quite fragile against S8 weapons and have a less than stellar leadership. Adding a Warboss with Bosspole would fix the leadership issue, but it still seems a bit iffy. If the Warboss won't be able to get into the initial assault, then he's not sucking up some extra wounds, not attacking back and to be honest, Deffkoptas are not very good in assault. It seems very risky and very situational at best. I'm sure there may be a time and place for it, but when I select units, I need them to be more versatile. This means my Deffkoptas need to go and get at stuff quick to allow my other Orks to close in.