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Heres my list! Have play tested it against Tyranids, Space Marines, Dark Eldar, and Tau. So far I have won most of my games, but the Dark Eldar managed to win 1 out of 3 games against them.
Wins against everyone else. Let me know what you think. I play very aggressively. Combi-melta PF Wolf Guard are pack leaders for the Greyhunters.

Space Wolves 2000 Mechanized Force

HQ - 1 - 210 points

Wolf Lord ( Terminator Armor, Wolf Claw, Storm Shield, Wolf Tail Talisman, Saga of the Warrior Born )

Elites - 2 - 809 points

Venerable Dreadnaught ( Assault Cannon, Storm Bolter )

( 8 Wolf Guard )
3 Wolf Guard ( Combi-Melta, Powerfist )
5 Wolf Guard ( Terminator Armor, 3x Wolf Claws, 2x Wolf Claw Storm Shield )
Land Raider Redeemer ( Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Multi-melta, 2x Inferno Cannon, Extra Armor )

Troops - 3 - 600 points

9 Greyhunters ( Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard )
Rhino ( Storm Bolter )

9 Greyhunters ( Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard )
Rhino ( Storm Bolter )

9 Greyhunters ( Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard )
Rhino ( Storm Bolter )

Heavy Support - 2 - 380 points

6 Long Fangs ( Squad Leader, 5x Missile Launcher )
Razorback ( Twin Linked Heavy Bolter, Hunter-killer Missile )

6 Long Fangs ( Squad Leader, 5x Missile Launcher )
Razorback ( Twin Linked Heavy Bolter, Hunter-killer Missile )

Total - 1999 points

It's not by any means terrible, but is there a reason you don't have Rune Priests? It seems to me that a pair of them would be much better than that Venerable Dreadnought, considering they could both have Living Lightning, or Murderous Hurricane, either of which would provide a lot more firepower than an overpriced Assault Cannon turret.

Also, the Wolf Guard Terminators would be much better if they all had different wargear, especially if one or two had Chainfists, and a couple had Combi-Meltas. One Storm Shield is probably enough, and they need a heavy weapon.

Consider replacing Saga of the Warrior Born with Saga of the Bear on your Wolf Lord. Warrior Born is pretty well useless since the attacks have to be used in the next assault phase, not YOUR next assault phase. If you assault an opponent and wipe them out in a single round, the only way you get to use the attacks is if your opponent assaults you. Not a smart move on their part. Saga of the Bear will let you tackle Dreadnoughts and the like without fear of instant death.

Those Razorbacks need to have a useful turret, like LasPlas or TL Lascannon. Hunter Killers are overpriced, and it's worth dropping one Long Fang from each pack to get a TL Lascannon turret on each.

All around the list doesn't look bad, but it looks designed for casual play. No Rune Priests means no psychic protection and less ranged firepower which is definitely where you are lacking the most. Wolf Guard Termiantors and a Wolf Lord are literally just worse for the points than Thunderwolves, and in a Land Raider it's hard to beat Arjac and a full pack of Grey Hunters, which would be infinitely better than those Terminators.

If casual play is what you want, then some minor changes would make it a little better, but if you are actually looking to go competitive I'd redesign the list to include Thunderwolves instead of the Terminators, and maybe add Arjac and put one of those packs of Grey Hunters in the Crusader with him. I'd also pick up at least one Rune Priest. Arjac lists are not the most top-tier competitive out there but I think they pack more punch than this list.

I wanted to have an uber Wolf Lord leading my terminators, thats why I designed this list without runepriests in mind. A Wolf Lord with a saga is alot of points, so I figured id make a competitive list without them. You are correct, 2 runepriests would probably have more fire power than a BS 5 Assault Cannon, however that is not the dreadnaughts only card to play. He is there to force my opponent to make a choice. They can shoot him or shoot the Land Raider. I have found he has amazing survivability sometimes with the re roll of the dice on the vehicle damage chart. My Land Raider is a huge target for my opponent, so if I can give him 2 targets instead of one, it increases my armor saturation so that my Land Raider has a higher chance of surviving to deliver the payload of uber CC termies. Not to mention if he does make it into combat, str 10 ignore armor can be very usefull to help out the middle field with my grey hunters in assault. My Greyhunters are troublemakers, I play very aggressively with them. As for making my termie squad a "jack of all trades" squad, I dont believe that is the only way to run them. Specializing close combat squads can also be very good, I have designed them to be the ultimate anti infantry unit. Its up to the general to use them skillfully and keep them out of trouble ( I dont have to try too hard though with 3 storm shields ). You should try a pure wolf claws squad sometime, you may be surprised My squad gets 23 re roll to hit or wound power weapon attacks, with more possible later with saga of the warrior born ( cant wait to play against Orks ). Thunderwolves are awsome, but I want to play with Terminators, so thats why I dont include them. I would have liked to put TL Lascannons on my Razorbacks, but alas, not enough points I had some points leftover however so Hunter-killer Missiles were a good compromise.

Fair enough.

The question still comes down to this:

Is your list designed to be competitive?

If the answer is no, and you are just looking for casual games, then by all means, field your Terminators and play with your Wolf Lord. They are cool, and they are fun to play with, and they are not terrible if equipped correctly. I play the Great Company of Berek Thunderfist, and I have a custom Berek Thunderfist model that I use for casual games where I want my Wolf Lord to be leading Terminators and whatnot, and it's great fun.

However, if the answer is yes, and you really want to take the list to a tournament and win with it, you need to scrap the idea of what's "cool" or "fluffy" and play with what is effective. In those kinds of games, small details can make the difference between a win or a loss, and thus taking a unit like Wolf Guard Terminators lead by a foot Wolf Lord, which are quite low on the totem pole for effectiveness, will generally get you shredded by a good player fielding a finely tuned list. Thunderwolves are so much better that there shouldn't even be a comparison between the two.

As for Venerable Dreadnoughts, you are paying 60 points to force your opponent to re-roll on the damage table, which is something Eldar get for 35 points on all of their heavy support choices. Consider a Falcon with a Pulse Laser, 2x Shuriken cannons, Spirit Stones and Holofields. For 175 points you have a vehicle with 2x S8 AP2 shots, and 6x S6 AP5 shots, a reroll on the damage table, a 6 model transport capacity, and fast skimmer movement to boot. Your 165 point Dreadnought has an Assault Cannon, a Storm Bolter, and a Dreadnought CCW along with the Reroll from Venerable......nowhere near as efficient. Now compare that to a regular Dreadnought with a Multi-Melta and Heavy Flamer. For 50 points cheaper you have a model that can bust tanks at 24", bust Land Raiders at 12", fire a Heavy Flamer into a unit before charging them, and all you are missing is the re-roll.

Venerable Dreadnoughts were a cool idea, but terrible execution in the codex. It's fun to play in a casual game from time to time, but in competitive games it belongs on the shelf with the Skyclaws, Swiftclaws and Wolf Guard Bikers.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I don't pull punches with competitive commentary, so if that is what you are looking for, your list needs a big adjustment. If not, disregard my comments and play what you like, because you will have fun regardless

You dont sound harsh at all, I enjoy constructive criticism for list building. It makes us all learn and become better at list building As for Terminators being on the low end of the totem pole.... I see Space marine and variant Space Marine lists that use Terminators competitively all the time.... its not just me. Terminators have always been a great choice, and have been further enhanced this edition with storm shields. Like you said you cant really compare Thunderwolves and Terminators... sure statistically they are better, but they are used in 2 different roles. Its like saying " dont take Termigaunts, Hormogaunts are way better " when in fact they serve 2 different roles, and termigaunts are also great at what they do. I could also equip my Dreadnought with the weapon loadout you described, which actually sounds like a great idea. The Model I recieved from my friend had the assault Cannon on it, so that is what I started playing with. I will proxy the multimelta and see if I like it over the assault cannon. Ill give the flamer a try too I dont mind paying extra points for my dreadnought to increase its survivability and make sure its shots count. A regular Dreadnought walking on the board would probably explode. Remember, hes there to take hits for the Land Raider Sure Eldar have Holofields, but your comparing a fast gun transport to a hybrid shooting/CC walker. Once again they really shouldent be compared

Crusaderobr wrote:You dont sound harsh at all, I enjoy constructive criticism for list building. It makes us all learn and become better at list building As for Terminators being on the low end of the totem pole.... I see Space marine and variant Space Marine lists that use Terminators competitively all the time.... its not just me. Terminators have always been a great choice, and have been further enhanced this edition with storm shields. Like you said you cant really compare Thunderwolves and Terminators... sure statistically they are better, but they are used in 2 different roles. Its like saying " dont take Termigaunts, Hormogaunts are way better " when in fact they serve 2 different roles, and termigaunts are also great at what they do.

Actually the Terminators in your list and a pack of Thunderwolves with an attached Thunderwolf Lord have the exact same role. Both are intended to be a central melee unit around which your force is built, and both move about the same speed (if the terminators are mounted in a Land Raider that is), and share similar weapon options. I don't think a comparison is that far fetched . With that in mind, I think I should explain a little more. Terminators in and of themselves are not bad. In fact, Assault Terminators from Codex:Space Marines are one of the better choices out there for a melee unit. What I mean is that SPACE WOLF Terminators are the low end of the totem pole except in a few situations, which I'll cover in a moment. For now I want to look at the two kinds of Terminators in Codex:Space Marines and compare them to similarly equipped Wolf Guard Terminators.

Regular Terminator squads are 40 points per model. Thats 200 points for a unit of 5, and they are equipped with a Power Fist and Storm Bolter. They have Combat Tactics, ATSKNF and Combat Squads. Wolf Guard Terminators on the other hand are 33 points per model with less structure to their squads. They come with a Power Weapon and a Storm Bolter, and they have ATSKNF, Acute Senses and Counter Assault. Otherwise, the two units have an identical stat line. However, if we give the Wolf Guard each a Power Fist to give the two squads identical gear, they now cost 43 points per model. Basically you are paying 3 points to trade Combat Tactics and Combat Squads for Acute Senses and Counter Assault. The problem is that neither of those units is particularly effective in game terms. Regular Terminators are considered mediocre at best unless taken in very large units with a Librarian and Gate of Infinity. Space Wolves have no such option, making their unit much slower.

Assault Terminators are 40 points per model, the same as regular Terminators, and come with either 2x Lightning Claws, or a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. The TH/SS configuration is by far the best option, because it lets them perform the role they were intended for, which is dealing with tough targets like Daemon Princes, Tyranid MC's, Walkers, Etc...Now if we take a Wolf Guard Terminator and give him the same exact equipment, he either costs 48 points for dual Wolf Claws, in which case you are paying an extra 8 points per model for the option to re-roll hits or wounds, plus the above mentioned Acute Senses and Counter Assault, or he costs 63 points with a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield, in which case you are paying 23 points....thats over 50%!!!!.....for just Acute Senses and Counter Assault on a model with the exact same equipment and stat line as a vanilla Assault Terminator.

Space Wolves got screwed with their Terminators. The two best configurations have a massive markup in our Codex. The only saving grace is that Wolf Guard can all be equipped differently, meaning you can have a unit of unique models for wound allocation shenanigans, and they can take Combi-Meltas. It's a damn shame too, because Space Wolves have some of the best looking Terminator models GW has produced.

Now, moving along to the few situations where they are worth taking. The first situation is as a bodyguard for Njal Stormcaller. They need decent ranged capabilities, and they all need to have separate wargear. Usually 5 or 6 is enough to do the job, and they are only ever useful if you plan on taking Njal on foot in his Terminator Armor. The next situation is in a Loganwing list. Logan Grimnar with a bunch of 5 man scoring Terminator units deploying via Drop Pods is actually not a bad tactic, but it requires fielding 20-30 Terminators, which is a lot of money, and each one needs to be uniquely equipped, and there needs to be a Cyclone Missile Launcher in each unit (which doesn't come in the box).

Again, Terminators are cool, and they are not the WORST units available for Space Wolves to take, but they are definitely not great. The role they are intended to fill is either a Melee Death Star (IE Assault Terminators in a Land Raider) which Thunderwolves do much better, hence my comparison, or as a mid-ranged support unit, which Long Fangs and Grey Hunters do much better for a cheaper cost and they can hold objectives to boot. If you try to combine the two with Terminators, you get an overpriced "jack of all trades" unit that is a master of none unless you take them for a specific purpose, IE Loganwing or a tough Bodyguard for a character like Njal. If you want a unit that fits both roles, try the Arjac + Grey Hunters in a Land Riader. It really is quite a strong unit and can do both roles very well.

Crusaderobr wrote:I could also equip my Dreadnought with the weapon loadout you described, which actually sounds like a great idea. The Model I recieved from my friend had the assault Cannon on it, so that is what I started playing with. I will proxy the multimelta and see if I like it over the assault cannon. Ill give the flamer a try too I dont mind paying extra points for my dreadnought to increase its survivability and make sure its shots count. A regular Dreadnought walking on the board would probably explode. Remember, hes there to take hits for the Land Raider Sure Eldar have Holofields, but your comparing a fast gun transport to a hybrid shooting/CC walker. Once again they really shouldent be compared

I'm comparing role to role. Most good Eldar players (I play Eldar competitively, and have a lot of experience with them) will tell you that a Falcon is NOT a transport. It has a transport capacity, sure, but it is almost exclusively used as a gun-boat, transporting a tiny unit of Dire Avengers to give it scoring capabilities. Since it is a gunboat used for fire support, it fills much the same role that a Dreadnought does if equipped with a weapon like an Assault Cannon, or a pair of Twin Linked Autocannons, except that if the Dreadnought has its Close Combat Weapon it can also do well as counter-assault.

As for paying 60 points for Venerable, you are spending just over 57% of the cost of a second Dreadnought to give the first one a re-roll on the damage table that may or may not have an effect. It reduces the chances of a Destroyed result from 33% to 11%, and actually INCREASES the chance that your Dreadnought will be immobilized or lose a weapon. It's better to just pay the few extra points and buy a second Dreadnought for redundancy in case the first one gets destoryed. A pair of them with Multi-Meltas and Heavy Flamers is 230 points instead of 165 points for the single Venerable Dreadnought, which is only a 28.2% difference in price for a 100% increase in number of weapons and survivability. Much better in my opinion.

Play the Venerable Dreadnought if you like it in friendly or non-competitive games, but in a tournament leave it at home. It's just not worth the points when you could buy most of a second Dreadnought for the same cost. All of this is my opinion of course, but I think you will find a lot of good players tend to share these opinions, and some are even more vehement about it as I am, and less willing to explain why. Regardless, I hope that helps you understand why I make the recommendations I do for competitive play

I will have to disagree with you on my terminators. They do not fill the same role as Thunderwolves, hence why I said they shouldent be compared. As I said in my previous posts, they are specialized in an anti infantry/heavy infantry role. They are not a melee death star unit. The way you recommend and equip your terminators is a melee death star unit, but I obviously do not equip them for that role. If I did, id have some thunderhammers/chainfists and combi-meltas thrown in, like you have suggested. You say that Space Wolves Terminators got screwed compared to codex space marines, I dont think this is true. Sure they are a little overcosted, but that does not mean they cant be competitive. You have admitted that you are mainly an Eldar player, so surely you can think out of the box and appreciate specialization. Terminators dont have to fill the death star unit role, they can be specialized like I have made them. Wolf Claws are better than lightning claws against T3 models, where you will cause more wounds when re rolling to hit instead of to wound, which can make a big difference against horde armies/Eldar etc. Now lets get into point costs. A base 10 man Greyhunter squad with a WGPL costs 153 points. A base tactical squad with sarg from codex space marines is 170 points. Thats a 17 point difference. On top of that, Grey hunters are superior to tactical marines in every way, except for the minor decrease in firepower. They also have superior wargear options for cc. Are you going to claim that tactical marines are not competitive anymore and that people who play codex space marines shouldent take them? I save 51 points by taking Greyhunters instead of tactical marines because I take 3 full 10 man squads. thats 51 points. My Terminator squad costs 250 points. It is superior to a pure lightning claw termie squad, and I save 1 point to boot. Overall, I am better off than codex space marines with my greyhunters and termies ( with the role I specialized them for ), and point costs end up roughly the same, except for the better wargear the Greyhunters end up getting. Competitive? I think so. As for the venerable Dread, I think I agree with you that it is not a competitive choice. I am also going to agree with you that you must have a Runepriest to be competitive due to all the psychic power in other competitive lists. So I have gone back to the drawing board and here is what I have come up with :

Space Wolves 2000 Mechanized Force

HQ - 2 - 230 points

Runepriest ( Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf )

Wolf Priest ( Terminator Armor, Wolf Tail Talisman, Combi-flamer )

Elites - 2 - 644 points

( 8 Wolf Guard )
3 Wolf Guard ( Combi-Melta, Powerfist )
5 Wolf Guard ( Terminator Armor, 3x Wolf Claws, 2x Wolf Claw Storm Shield )
Land Raider Redeemer ( Twin Linked Assault Cannon, Multi-melta, 2x Inferno Cannon, Extra Armor )

Troops - 3 - 585 points

8 Greyhunters ( Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard )
Rhino ( Storm Bolter )

9 Greyhunters ( Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard )
Rhino ( Storm Bolter )

9 Greyhunters ( Meltagun, Mark of the Wulfen, Wolf Standard )
Rhino ( Storm Bolter )

Heavy Support - 3 - 540 points

6 Long Fangs ( Squad Leader, 5x Missile Launcher )
Razorback ( Twin Linked Heavy Bolter )

6 Long Fangs ( Squad Leader, 5x Missile Launcher )
Razorback ( Twin Linked Heavy Bolter )

6 Long Fangs ( Squad Leader, 5x Missile Launcher )
Razorback ( Twin Linked Heavy Bolter )

Total - 1999 points

Now this list I believe is much more competitive. Instead of trying to add TL Lascannons to the Razorbacks, I just added another squad of Longfangs. Replaced Wolf Lord with a Wolf Priest so that my termies are just as effective if not more so. And of course, the Runepriest for psychic defense. Let me know what you think.