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SPOILERS------------------IF YOU READ ON FROM THIS POINT AND BECOME ANGRY (CONSIDERING THE TITLE SAYS SPOILERS BE HERE) LOOK INWARD












So just finished The First Heretic. First, GREAT book. Between Horus Rising and this one...tough call on my fav. Good writing, believable dialogue...just really entertaining (even if I wasn't a 40k fan). Was just good sci fi. Anyways, on to my thoughts;


What's up with the hate people have for Guilliman? I actually found myself liking the damn dude after this book with the way he handled Lorgar and the Word Bearers. I'm actually looking forward to the showdown between those two legions now.

Speaking of Lorgar.....what a bi-polar emo primarch. He seemed to be fanatical about...well anything that happened that particular day. At the end of the book, even Kor Phaeron and Erebus were rolling their eyes at him and telling him to shut it. At least if he had engineered the damn heresy, he would have some kind of accomplishment...but really it seems it was all about Erebus and Kor. All Lorgar did was muse, complain about how weak he was and write gak down.

Loved the Custodes in the novel, especially the silent one's parting line at the end. Good stuff.

The way the author represented Chaos here...well it was the first time it really felt evil. Cthulhu like in horror...for example when they possessed were explaining how they were violated at being possessed, there was an actual feeling of unease when he described it. It was actually 'Grim dark'.




Black Library needs to sign this guy on for another novel or two.

I loved the depiction of Guilliman in this book. He doesn't actually do much, but he makes it look goooood. The piece where he makes his Astartes stand when the Word Bearers are forced to kneel in the Emperor's presence was nicely provocational.

I agree with you on the Custodes, although I feel that they come across as a little short-changed in the manner of their last stand. Maybe it should have been made clearer exactly how powerful the possessed Word Bearers were; as it stands, it just looks like the elite Custodes went down a little easily.

Great shot with the spear, though!

Agreed on all counts!

And once again it shows how, basically, the Traitor Primarchs were duped into committing the greatest crime possible against humanity - and that, for the most part, the Traitor Primarchs were often bystanders/victims to their own fates!

Aaron Dembski-Bowden to the rescue eh?

I picked up The First Heretic after I read Soul Hunter, and I loved it. The Custodes introduced some tension into book, and honestly I secretly found myself rooting for them.

One thing I'd like to note was the author's throwback to Soul Hunter, the part introducing Malcharion, who is a character in Soul Hunter and the saving of Lorgar by Konrad Curze. Though a bit... odd, I suppose, I found it nice to see characters from another novel by the same author, and, honestly, if he keeps writing the way he does I may be forced to play Night Lords...

My favorite part in this altogether very good novel were the insights into the 2 lost legions and the insinuation that the Ultramarines, borg-like, assimilated the remnants of whatever was left of them after the purge.

Prospero Burns backed this up with Russ flat-out telling the historian fellow that the Heresy was not, at all, the first time Astartes had fought Astartes.

Overall at the end I felt that the last stand of the Custodes did indeed short change them a bit. They go from epic killing machines to slightly-better-than-Possessed-but-not-really.

The ending with the Custodes had been telegraphed earlier in the book: firstly with Argal Tal observing that they didn't fight as a coherent unit, and secondly with the Possessed going on a rampage at the Drop Site Massacres. Then there also was the sacrifice of the Custodian after he took a burst of bolter shells to the face after killing four senior Astartes.

Personally I liked the notion that the Word Bearers fell because of their fanatical devotion to the truth; none of the Word Bearers (perhaps barring Erebus) liked hurting people. Lorgar didn't start the heresy going because he wanted to hurt people.

I also like the part where, after the censure, Lorgar announces that apparently he is indeed fallible and now that everyone's had a good laugh we're going to have a nice bit of genocide to take everyone's mind off the shame of the censure. It's like "Yeah, I make mistakes, so let's kill some people!"

Finally, Argal Tal really gets the short end of the stick. He's the loyal soldier that dutifully says: "Gee sir, I don't think me and my men being raped by daemons is all for the best" before getting violated by the phallic Ingethel the Ascended.

The fluff behind the Custodes says they are individuals over teams.

I love custodes glad to hear they sound badass. Also makes me want to start an army of them.

Hmmm, I agree with the observation that Lorgar seems a bit emo, and kinda wished they'd explored a little more of his zeal and power from that, rather than on him moping so much about his mistakes. I also thought it was a bit of a stretch to see him so influenced by normal bods (one of them not even being a full sm), where most other primarchs seem so much more above their respective legion.

Secondly, I was slightly curious, if not downright confused about the revelations to do with the birth/creation of the primarchs. From the insight that the daemon is supposed to have given the chosen word bearers, it seemed to imply that the emperor had actually CONSPIRED with the chaos gods for enough power to create them, and that the episode whereby they are cast out into the galaxy was seen as payback for said emperor's reneging on their deal.... Does anyone else agree with this interpretation? Or is that the intended spin the daemon is putting on it so that they will help him, whereas the truth is far from that?

I knew they were always secretive about the exact reason they managed to become scattered, and I like the idea that the big E may have dabbled where he shouldn't have, but I don't want to get invested in the idea if I've read it wrong. Thoughts?

Reanimator wrote:Hmmm, I agree with the observation that Lorgar seems a bit emo, and kinda wished they'd explored a little more of his zeal and power from that, rather than on him moping so much about his mistakes. I also thought it was a bit of a stretch to see him so influenced by normal bods (one of them not even being a full sm), where most other primarchs seem so much more above their respective legion.

Secondly, I was slightly curious, if not downright confused about the revelations to do with the birth/creation of the primarchs. From the insight that the daemon is supposed to have given the chosen word bearers, it seemed to imply that the emperor had actually CONSPIRED with the chaos gods for enough power to create them, and that the episode whereby they are cast out into the galaxy was seen as payback for said emperor's reneging on their deal.... Does anyone else agree with this interpretation? Or is that the intended spin the daemon is putting on it so that they will help him, whereas the truth is far from that?

I knew they were always secretive about the exact reason they managed to become scattered, and I like the idea that the big E may have dabbled where he shouldn't have, but I don't want to get invested in the idea if I've read it wrong. Thoughts?

Remember that this is the viewpoint that Chaos are putting forwards and not necessarily what actually occurred. But, yes, this may be the case, or not, or is it.

Well said! Honestly this is one of the best books that BL has ever released. AD-B has risen like a star in the authors of BL, every book I've read from has been great.

I loved the fact that the word bearers caused the separation of the primarchs, but it's kinda weird because if they didn't do it they would of never become word bearers as logar would have never landed on colchis. but that means that they..... oh god i lost my train of thought but ya....

Reanimator wrote:Hmmm, I agree with the observation that Lorgar seems a bit emo, and kinda wished they'd explored a little more of his zeal and power from that, rather than on him moping so much about his mistakes.

I didn't like this either, but it does make much of the fluff following the heresy easier to swallow; Lorgar literally sits in the Warp all day brooding about how stupid the Imperium is and how it'd all be better if everyone just LISTEN to him. If he wasn't an angst-ridden tragic hero/villain during the HH and walked around smiting everything with his super powers (much like Corax...) I'd expect him to be a lot more active post-heresy.

Reanimator wrote:Hmmm, I agree with the observation that Lorgar seems a bit emo, and kinda wished they'd explored a little more of his zeal and power from that, rather than on him moping so much about his mistakes. I also thought it was a bit of a stretch to see him so influenced by normal bods (one of them not even being a full sm), where most other primarchs seem so much more above their respective legion.

I belive this was motivated by the fact that Lorgar basicly regarded Kor Phaeron as his father. At one point they have a conversation describing what personality trait each primarch inherited from the Emperor, and I belive that Lorgar got the Emperors humanity or compassion, can't remember. Basicly it's not that farfetched that he'd question his own actions and seek advice from those closest to him.

About the book, it was great, I think my favorite parts where the ones where Argel Tal struggled with his inner daemon, like when he was alone with the human girl and just wanted to rip her apart.

Reanimator wrote:Hmmm, I agree with the observation that Lorgar seems a bit emo, and kinda wished they'd explored a little more of his zeal and power from that, rather than on him moping so much about his mistakes. I also thought it was a bit of a stretch to see him so influenced by normal bods (one of them not even being a full sm), where most other primarchs seem so much more above their respective legion.

Secondly, I was slightly curious, if not downright confused about the revelations to do with the birth/creation of the primarchs. From the insight that the daemon is supposed to have given the chosen word bearers, it seemed to imply that the emperor had actually CONSPIRED with the chaos gods for enough power to create them, and that the episode whereby they are cast out into the galaxy was seen as payback for said emperor's reneging on their deal.... Does anyone else agree with this interpretation? Or is that the intended spin the daemon is putting on it so that they will help him, whereas the truth is far from that?

I knew they were always secretive about the exact reason they managed to become scattered, and I like the idea that the big E may have dabbled where he shouldn't have, but I don't want to get invested in the idea if I've read it wrong. Thoughts?

It's a good question, as I don't believe it's an accidental recurring theme in the books. However, I imagine in the end the authors will 'leave it up to us' on Big E's motivations/dealings with the Dark 4. Personally, it would seem strange that one of the most powerful psychic beings in the history of the galaxy...couldn't see why making back door deals with sentient God like warp entities might end badly. So I think it was just a ploy to turn Horus/Word Bearers.

I think it's that "most powerful beings in the history of the galaxy" that might incline a being to think they can get the better of the Dark Powers. Hubris and all that.

Mr. Burning wrote:

Reanimator wrote:Hmmm, I agree with the observation that Lorgar seems a bit emo, and kinda wished they'd explored a little more of his zeal and power from that, rather than on him moping so much about his mistakes. I also thought it was a bit of a stretch to see him so influenced by normal bods (one of them not even being a full sm), where most other primarchs seem so much more above their respective legion.

Secondly, I was slightly curious, if not downright confused about the revelations to do with the birth/creation of the primarchs. From the insight that the daemon is supposed to have given the chosen word bearers, it seemed to imply that the emperor had actually CONSPIRED with the chaos gods for enough power to create them, and that the episode whereby they are cast out into the galaxy was seen as payback for said emperor's reneging on their deal.... Does anyone else agree with this interpretation? Or is that the intended spin the daemon is putting on it so that they will help him, whereas the truth is far from that?

I knew they were always secretive about the exact reason they managed to become scattered, and I like the idea that the big E may have dabbled where he shouldn't have, but I don't want to get invested in the idea if I've read it wrong. Thoughts?

Remember that this is the viewpoint that Chaos are putting forwards and not necessarily what actually occurred. But, yes, this may be the case, or not, or is it.

Exactly!

I don't think the 'real events' are as depicted by the Chaos God's visions/attempt to turn the Primarchs/Marines.

I don't think the Emperor bargained with the big 4 - I believe he knew about them and was attempting to thwart them (forever, with limiting use of the Warp for travel!), and they in turn did whatever they could in order to thwart him!

I don't think all of these 'time travel' events depicted (Horus going back to the capsules, the Word Bearers causing the collapse of the Gellar Fields leading to the abduction of the Primarchs, etc.) are meant to be taken literally...

And yet time moves strangely in the Warp...

I have to Admit even if the Emperor lacks tact in certain things he definetly has good taste for showing a point, Ferchrissakes Blowing up their perfect city, Making them bow in the ashes trough the force of psychic power, and tell them everything they have ever done is a failure?! Definitely thought the point would have gotten to The word Bearers a little better.

On the other hand, gotta give Logar some Kudos for standing in The Big E's face and Yelling at him that he wont admit he's a god, and for Giving Guiliman a Lil' whooping

Agreed on all counts!

And once again it shows how, basically, the Traitor Primarchs were duped into committing the greatest crime possible against humanity - and that, for the most part, the Traitor Primarchs were often bystanders/victims to their own fates!

Ech, I don't agree with this last statement on all grounds, for example:

Angron and Night Haunter both were practically begging to be turned to Chaos,

Lorgar let his passions blind him along with Fulgrim

a lot of the traitor primarchs were blinded by hate for other primarchs or loyalty to Horus, I can't attribute ALL the primarchs falling because they were duped, most were just idiots to begin with

One exception, I think would be Magnus, although I haven't read the HH books on that specific incident yet so don't quote me on that

Also Alpharius for obvious reasons, I mean, When all your marines go around screaming "For the Emperor!" when any other CSM would rather eat ork droppings kinda gives it away.

IIRC Mangus still pretty much got screwed trying to do the right thing.

WARORK93 wrote:

Agreed on all counts!

And once again it shows how, basically, the Traitor Primarchs were duped into committing the greatest crime possible against humanity - and that, for the most part, the Traitor Primarchs were often bystanders/victims to their own fates!

Ech, I don't agree with this last statement on all grounds, for example:

Angron and Night Haunter both were practically begging to be turned to Chaos,

Lorgar let his passions blind him along with Fulgrim

a lot of the traitor primarchs were blinded by hate for other primarchs or loyalty to Horus, I can't attribute ALL the primarchs falling because they were duped, most were just idiots to begin with

One exception, I think would be Magnus, although I haven't read the HH books on that specific incident yet so don't quote me on that

Also Alpharius for obvious reasons, I mean, When all your marines go around screaming "For the Emperor!" when any other CSM would rather eat ork droppings kinda gives it away.

Konrad/night haunter was NOT begging to be turned. His legion were pretty much the pre herey witch hunters. If anything he hated the emperor for sending assassins after him after he carried out the emperor's orders to the letter

Reanimator wrote:

Konrad/night haunter was NOT begging to be turned. His legion were pretty much the pre herey witch hunters. If anything he hated the emperor for sending assassins after him after he carried out the emperor's orders to the letter

Well, a key reason Konrad turned was that he knew what his Legion was: a bunch of stone cold murderers. Because after he was found by Big E Nostramo slowly slid back into its old ways, which essentially spit on his life's work. As his legion became implemented more and more as a tool of shock/awe and fear, and that his legion was full of the type of men Konrad abhorred, I think he rebelled because the Big E was using them to instill fear, then reprimands Konrad for being too scary/evil. Konrad, feeling like his humanity was whored out (He gave up decency to become the Big E's scary Primarch), left to bring justice to Big E for using him. But when the assassin came, he already understood that his Legion was full of traitors, at least to the eyes of the Imperium, and so he let his death occur as to send Big E the message that his death was nothing compared to his vindication for his sins committed under the command of Big E.

On Topic: A lot of the times Malcador is made to look like a frail old man... weird, especially since he basically protected Terra while Big E was dispensin' tough love to Horus.

There's an awful lot of Primarch's claiming to be the Emperor's big scary. Angron, Russ, Corax, Curze...

Mind you, if Curze thought that it was appropriate to murder one's sons when one's sons turn out to be nastier than anticipated, and difficult to control, I would have thought he'd murder his Legion before doing the suicide thing.

Limbo wrote:

Reanimator wrote:Hmmm, I agree with the observation that Lorgar seems a bit emo, and kinda wished they'd explored a little more of his zeal and power from that, rather than on him moping so much about his mistakes. I also thought it was a bit of a stretch to see him so influenced by normal bods (one of them not even being a full sm), where most other primarchs seem so much more above their respective legion.

I belive this was motivated by the fact that Lorgar basicly regarded Kor Phaeron as his father. At one point they have a conversation describing what personality trait each primarch inherited from the Emperor, and I belive that Lorgar got the Emperors humanity or compassion, can't remember. Basicly it's not that farfetched that he'd question his own actions and seek advice from those closest to him.

About the book, it was great, I think my favorite parts where the ones where Argel Tal struggled with his inner daemon, like when he was alone with the human girl and just wanted to rip her apart.

He also worshiped the emporer as a god before the emporer b*tch slapped and told him to buck up his ideas, this may of added a bit of self doubt into lorgar

I've only read the first three and Alpha.
It was intresting to see the eldar(of all people) to tell the Alpha Legion to fall, yes fall with horus to fight against the emporer.

Generally the hate/stigam asscociated with Gulliman is due to him telling all the surviving primarchs to break up their legions into compartively small fighting forces and limit the amount there was avaliable. He didn't ever see the forces of Horus assualt the Palace of Terra, he didn't ever see Horus like Dorn and Sanguinus(who gave his life for the Imperiums survival) did. He didn't se how corruptive the power of chaos was once it had a foothold in the material realm.

The best part about Dembski's characterisation of Lorgar was Lorgar's rejection of being a warrior. That was brilliant.

As for Magnus: why is everyone so blind to his massive arrogance?

Manchu wrote:
As for Magnus: why is everyone so blind to his massive arrogance?

True Magnus thought he was Freaking awesome (lack of a better definition) and that he and his Legion could handle it

Cryonicleech wrote: On Topic: A lot of the times Malcador is made to look like a frail old man... weird, especially since he basically protected Terra while Big E was dispensin' tough love to Horus.

Off-topic: the narrator of Garro: Oath of Moment does a pretty funny impersonation of Palpatine when voicing Malcador - I kept expecting him to refer to Garro as 'my young apprentice'.

Not sure if it was just bad voice-acting or a subtle Emperor's regent / Emperor comparison.

Probably the former.

Up till this book I always thought of Lorgar as the whining emo primarch.

But this book changed that opinion, yeah he was bitter - but that was because he didnt want to fight, all his brothers were warlords and he wanted instead to stop the grimdark eternal war.

So, his dad comes down and goes "Lorgar, i know you've been doing this for 100 years and i've never mentioned this before but YOUR A NAUGHTY BOY!" Promptly publically humilates his ENTIRE legion, destroys his greatest triumph and psychially smashes them to their knees.

Surprisingly, this makes him quite bitter! Much akin to Magnus, if E actually bothered to communicate to the Primarch's and removed the rod from his behind none of the Horus Heresy would have happened.

Lorgar is still on the angsty side, but i think i can imagine him now without the side parting covering his eye