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Made in gb
Tough Tyrant Guard






uk

He does wear eye make up though. I'm just saying.

Masochist: Hit me!
Sadist: No.

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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Yeah, I would say I thought Lorgar was much more the primarch's primarch before reading this book. Now I think of him as more whiny (although not necessarily effeminate) than I did before.

   
Made in gb
Ghost of Greed and Contempt






Engaged in Villainy

Off subject, but I saw Curze as betrayed by the emperor.
Like he says to M'shen, he only did as the Corpse-God told him: " Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."

Also, Soul hunter has to be my favourite B.L book. (Just sayin')

"He was already dead when I killed him!"

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[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

To be fair, the Night Haunter had a pretty twisted view about "the truth" of his actions.

   
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Swift Swooping Hawk






Scotland

Just finished the first heretic and thought it one of the best of the series (if not 40k books) so far.

So many parts to enjoy. The custodes, the possesed, the humiliation of a legion, Lorgar's angst, the massacre, the demons, etc.

How come all the Primarchs that turn realise what they've did too late?

I'd agree that the Custodes could've had a bit more of their day in the sun in the showdown however it didn't spoil the book for me.

Bravo Mr A D-B. Loved it!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/11 18:38:43




"Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds." - J. Robert Oppenheimer - Exterminatus had it's roots way back in history. 
   
Made in us
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!





The Rock

Brother Bartius wrote:

How come all the Primarchs that turn realise what they've did too late?



THIS! i loved that scene:

Spoiler:
As he looks at Fulgrim and Ferrus Battling it out he stats to realize this isnt what he wanted but now its to late to go back, Brilliant.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
metallifan wrote:Maybe it's not the ROFLSTOMP that Americans are used to...

Best summary of foeign policy. Ever.
 
   
Made in au
Lethal Lhamean






AgeOf Ethos. I agreed with you about lorgar so on the BnC I asked ADB why lorgar was a bit failbus at everything and this is what he said. Just thought people might the like to read authors really long well thought out opinion.

...He is not the man he's supposed to be, and he knows it.

Narratively-speaking, the novel doesn't dwell on his successes - even when his Legion (or Lorgar himself) achieves great things, Lorgar never pays attention to them because that's how his mind works. Ambitious, hard-working people always look to the horizon, rarely dwelling on The Now. After the censure, it's mentioned that the Word Bearers become one of the very best and most efficient Legions in the Great Crusade, but Lorgar pays it no heed. He doesn't care. It doesn't enter his thoughts. He himself is slaughtering countless Raven Guard with no effort at all, but pays it no attention. Narratively speaking, his achievements are toned down in the text, purely because they're filtered through his eyes to being almost ignorable. He wants other things.

Excuse the cut and paste from a vaguely-related topic on another forum. I was mentioning this the other day:

"To me, it's always seemed like Lorgar came into his own as a Chaos Primarch. That's when he shifted gears and everything started to feel "right" for him. He got to be the archpriest he always wanted to be, and he was a natural at it.

The Lorgar we see in The First Heretic is at the point when his genetic gifts have all failed him, he's lost in the entirety of creation, his worldview is annihilated, and he's at his lowest ebb. This is Lorgar at the nadir of his existence, from the chastisement, to the discovery of the hideous truth, to taking part in fratricide and the butchery of the greatest betrayal he can imagine. At no part is he exactly 'together' and firing on all cylinders. And I didn't want him to be: I wanted the first view of him as The World's Greatest Orator to be when he's on some rebellious world in front of a "Horus Needs You!" poster, so every reader of the series can go: "Damn, this is what he should've been like on the Blue Team..."

A lot of the reviews have noted The First Heretic has a similar feel as the opening three novels. That's intentional. Some of the Horus Heresy novels have been more standalone than others (Legion, Mechanium) while others were more intended as part of their own series-within-series (Horus Rising, Descent of Angels). The First Heretic is, I guess, one of the latter examples (I always thought the epilogue made it especially clear these characters had more to do in the relatively near future). Those same characters will go on to fight in the Calth book(s?) if and when they get done, they'll fight in crusades during the Age of Darkness, and we'll see them at the Siege of Terra, too. Just as with Horus and Loken in the original three novels, we'll see Lorgar and Argel Tal change and develop over the course of the Heresy. Argel Tal's death is even set in stone, and it's not too hard to work out how he'll croak."

EDIT: In short, we always see Chaos Primarchs as 'more badass' when they become corrupted, and we rarely see them actually any better. Horus becomes a bloated, deluded fool. Mortarion becomes foul and disgusting. Magnus is manipulated even more, and lord of a Legion of dust. Fulgrim is... well, the Prince of Pleasure, possessed and no longer himself at all. No one gets better with corruption. No one gets much of a good deal out of it, except being a better warrior. At least, that's how it often comes across in canon before.

I wanted Lorgar's story arc to fight that presentation. I wanted him to show how the Chaos Primarchs can really love their ascension after a while. That's when he finally lives up to his potential as a primarch, and becomes the man he aways wanted to be. He becomes the charismatic, successful, genius orator - the Archpriest of Chaos - and really starts to outshine his brothers in some regards.

EDIT 2: The Revenge of Editing: Every primarch has their flaws, and where Lorgar and his Legion are concerned, it's always been something that made them unpalatable to a lot of people, because it makes them look dependent and incompetent on an internal level. Lorgar's flaw is something that makes him incompetent and distasteful in general, too. He's often cited as "needing to believe in something", as if he can't function without faith. He's considered weak for being manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus. Again, I'm not sure I really see it n such black and white terms. In The First Heretic, his need for faith is more than just a 21st Century atheistic disparagement of "needing religion for comfort", it's because he was raised - and truly believes - that the species needs faith in something greater to achieve its potential. He thinks it's core to the human condition, and he has every reason to believe it. Kor Phaeron and Erebus are able to manipulate him because they take the roles his brothers and father never took. The one primarch who was lost and alone needed guidance in an existence he had no passion for. And that guidance was provided by trusted the men that raised him and grew up with him, rather than his blood relations. And honestly, that rings a lot truer to me than many other primarch depictions, so I'm peachy keen when so many of the reviews and feedback comments see it the same way.

But as I said, I reckon Chaos Lorgar, neck-deep in the Heresy itself, will have thrown off his hesitance and doubt, as well as the shackles of reliance on Kor Phaeron and Erebus. He's the Archpriest of Chaos, and one of the best propaganda/recruitment weapons Chaos ever has. After all, Lorgar's Legion is the one that turns up with billions of cultists and daemons everywhere in the Heresy, bolstering Horus's forces by an insane amount. That's who Lorgar will become, later in the series.

This post has been edited by A D-B: Nov 8 2010, 04:12 PM

source http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=214386&st=25

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/12 07:09:30


 
   
Made in gb
Tough Tyrant Guard






uk

Wow, thats clarified a lot! Thanks

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Bounding Ultramarine Assault Trooper





Oklahoma City

I think people miss something much of the time, because we are just not faced with it in our reality.

Think about it this way...

Lorgar BELIEVED that the Emperor was GOD. He did not think he was. He did not rationalize that he was. HE BELIEVED.

Now, the Emperor comes and destroys Lorgar's FAITH by destroying all of the symbols of his faith. Remember, the perfect city was set up to worship the Emperor. The Word Bearers considered themselves above other Legions, because they felt like they alone knew the truth about the Emperor. Their biggest rivals were the Ultramarines, who represented the "secular" Imperium. The Emperor making all others, EXCEPT the Ultramarines take a knee, was very symbolic.

So, is it any wonder that Lrogar was a little emo? Hell, his entire REALITY was shattered by his GOD!

This made Lorgar desperate. He then spend the next few years trying to find something, ANYTHING, to believe in again. He goes from one side of the galaxy to the other. He consults ancient texts. He tries to go back to his homeworld's religion. He is basically grasping for ANYTHING.

That's when he is introduced to Chaos. At last, Lorgar finds the gods that he was looking for.

The only problem, is that they are not the gods that he was expecting...

Edit - Damn, the text above was posted as I was making my post. Oh well, it's good that I understood the author's direction!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/12 16:58:27


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Made in us
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.







And ever since the Heresy, the only thing Lorgar has done is lock himself up, sat down and meditated.

For 10,000 years.

Sounds like a supreme attack of "guilty conscience"!
   
Made in gb
Ghost of Greed and Contempt






Engaged in Villainy

Or he's just really lazy...

"He was already dead when I killed him!"

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Stealthy Dark Angels Scout with Shotgun




Caliban

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Or he's just really lazy...



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Guarding Guardian




NWI

I went into this book a little sceptical. I despise the Word Bearers. My favorite thing about the crusade was the rejection of religion and they were actively working against that. The Custodes were awesome, but like everyone said so far they needed a better final stand. The whole possesion process was incredibly well written and for a minute I felt bad for them. The true tragedy is that even while he was on Istvaan V, Lorgar was second guessing himself. He should have killed Kor Phaeron and Erebus where they stood and took up arms with the loyalists and the last minute.

I did like the idea that not all the primarchs would have chosen to be warriors. I feel like that reminded people of the fact that while they are these demi-gods, they do have some form of humanity. Corax was amazing so it is no surprise everyone is reading the Hunt for Volduris and making Raven Guard armies now.

My major boggle is with how the Emperor handled the planet that was brought into compliance by the Word Bearers. I get that he wasn't happy with Lorgar, who is, but that seemed a LITTLE heavy handed of him. Especially how he embarrased the legion in front of the Ultramarines. As odd as it may sound, I expected a little more compasion from Gulliman. Sure Lorgar wasn't his favorite brother but I would think he would have some pity after the Emperor shamed him. On the opposite side of the coin, I was expecting a savage ass-beating after Lorgar struck him. I was sure that both legions were going to clear the bench and have themselves a good old fashion rumble.

All in all great book. Gave me more reasons to hate the Word Bearers, Erebus most of all, and I greatly enjoyed yet another perspective of the dropsite massacre.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
DA's Forever wrote:
Brother Bartius wrote:

How come all the Primarchs that turn realise what they've did too late?



THIS! i loved that scene:

Spoiler:
As he looks at Fulgrim and Ferrus Battling it out he stats to realize this isnt what he wanted but now its to late to go back, Brilliant.


This was heart breaking in the extreme. in Fulgrim it was too late for him because he had a demon inside him. For Lorgar, he failed to do the right things cause he was a bitch. If the Word Bearers would have went loyal the battle would have been alot different. ...I wonder if the possessed marines would have followed Lorgar against the traitors at that point...?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/12 23:00:51


 
   
Made in us
Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!





The Rock

Maybe when they weren't in full possessed bloodletting mode and there "Inner deamon was resting, but if it was out in full force it'd be interesting to see if Lorgar could still keep hold of them

Emperors Faithful wrote:
metallifan wrote:Maybe it's not the ROFLSTOMP that Americans are used to...

Best summary of foeign policy. Ever.
 
   
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Guarding Guardian




NWI

Thats a good point. How confused would the Alpha Legion and Night Lords have been if that happened?

 
   
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Tzeentch Veteran Marine with Psychic Potential





Stafford

Reanimator wrote:He does wear eye make up though. I'm just saying.


^ this.


To be fair though, as much as Lorgar was a big whining pansy, I liked that we've had a Primarch now who isnt arrogant & high handed. Its nice to see one with a little bit of self doubt.

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The Rock

Hoodwink10 wrote:Thats a good point. How confused would the Alpha Legion and Night Lords have been if that happened?


Very much so i would assume.

Lorgar: Daemon children Help Corax don't kill him!
Alpha Legion

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/14 18:44:27


Emperors Faithful wrote:
metallifan wrote:Maybe it's not the ROFLSTOMP that Americans are used to...

Best summary of foeign policy. Ever.
 
   
 
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