Brother Bartius wrote:

How come all the Primarchs that turn realise what they've did too late?

...He is not the man he's supposed to be, and he knows it.

Narratively-speaking, the novel doesn't dwell on his successes - even when his Legion (or Lorgar himself) achieves great things, Lorgar never pays attention to them because that's how his mind works. Ambitious, hard-working people always look to the horizon, rarely dwelling on The Now. After the censure, it's mentioned that the Word Bearers become one of the very best and most efficient Legions in the Great Crusade, but Lorgar pays it no heed. He doesn't care. It doesn't enter his thoughts. He himself is slaughtering countless Raven Guard with no effort at all, but pays it no attention. Narratively speaking, his achievements are toned down in the text, purely because they're filtered through his eyes to being almost ignorable. He wants other things.

Excuse the cut and paste from a vaguely-related topic on another forum. I was mentioning this the other day:

"To me, it's always seemed like Lorgar came into his own as a Chaos Primarch. That's when he shifted gears and everything started to feel "right" for him. He got to be the archpriest he always wanted to be, and he was a natural at it.

The Lorgar we see in The First Heretic is at the point when his genetic gifts have all failed him, he's lost in the entirety of creation, his worldview is annihilated, and he's at his lowest ebb. This is Lorgar at the nadir of his existence, from the chastisement, to the discovery of the hideous truth, to taking part in fratricide and the butchery of the greatest betrayal he can imagine. At no part is he exactly 'together' and firing on all cylinders. And I didn't want him to be: I wanted the first view of him as The World's Greatest Orator to be when he's on some rebellious world in front of a "Horus Needs You!" poster, so every reader of the series can go: "Damn, this is what he should've been like on the Blue Team..."

A lot of the reviews have noted The First Heretic has a similar feel as the opening three novels. That's intentional. Some of the Horus Heresy novels have been more standalone than others (Legion, Mechanium) while others were more intended as part of their own series-within-series (Horus Rising, Descent of Angels). The First Heretic is, I guess, one of the latter examples (I always thought the epilogue made it especially clear these characters had more to do in the relatively near future). Those same characters will go on to fight in the Calth book(s?) if and when they get done, they'll fight in crusades during the Age of Darkness, and we'll see them at the Siege of Terra, too. Just as with Horus and Loken in the original three novels, we'll see Lorgar and Argel Tal change and develop over the course of the Heresy. Argel Tal's death is even set in stone, and it's not too hard to work out how he'll croak."

EDIT: In short, we always see Chaos Primarchs as 'more badass' when they become corrupted, and we rarely see them actually any better. Horus becomes a bloated, deluded fool. Mortarion becomes foul and disgusting. Magnus is manipulated even more, and lord of a Legion of dust. Fulgrim is... well, the Prince of Pleasure, possessed and no longer himself at all. No one gets better with corruption. No one gets much of a good deal out of it, except being a better warrior. At least, that's how it often comes across in canon before.

I wanted Lorgar's story arc to fight that presentation. I wanted him to show how the Chaos Primarchs can really love their ascension after a while. That's when he finally lives up to his potential as a primarch, and becomes the man he aways wanted to be. He becomes the charismatic, successful, genius orator - the Archpriest of Chaos - and really starts to outshine his brothers in some regards.

EDIT 2: The Revenge of Editing: Every primarch has their flaws, and where Lorgar and his Legion are concerned, it's always been something that made them unpalatable to a lot of people, because it makes them look dependent and incompetent on an internal level. Lorgar's flaw is something that makes him incompetent and distasteful in general, too. He's often cited as "needing to believe in something", as if he can't function without faith. He's considered weak for being manipulated by Kor Phaeron and Erebus. Again, I'm not sure I really see it n such black and white terms. In The First Heretic, his need for faith is more than just a 21st Century atheistic disparagement of "needing religion for comfort", it's because he was raised - and truly believes - that the species needs faith in something greater to achieve its potential. He thinks it's core to the human condition, and he has every reason to believe it. Kor Phaeron and Erebus are able to manipulate him because they take the roles his brothers and father never took. The one primarch who was lost and alone needed guidance in an existence he had no passion for. And that guidance was provided by trusted the men that raised him and grew up with him, rather than his blood relations. And honestly, that rings a lot truer to me than many other primarch depictions, so I'm peachy keen when so many of the reviews and feedback comments see it the same way.

But as I said, I reckon Chaos Lorgar, neck-deep in the Heresy itself, will have thrown off his hesitance and doubt, as well as the shackles of reliance on Kor Phaeron and Erebus. He's the Archpriest of Chaos, and one of the best propaganda/recruitment weapons Chaos ever has. After all, Lorgar's Legion is the one that turns up with billions of cultists and daemons everywhere in the Heresy, bolstering Horus's forces by an insane amount. That's who Lorgar will become, later in the series.

This post has been edited by A D-B: Nov 8 2010, 04:12 PM

Dark Apostle 666 wrote:Or he's just really lazy...

DA's Forever wrote:

Brother Bartius wrote:

How come all the Primarchs that turn realise what they've did too late?

THIS! i loved that scene:

Spoiler:

As he looks at Fulgrim and Ferrus Battling it out he stats to realize this isnt what he wanted but now its to late to go back, Brilliant.

Reanimator wrote:He does wear eye make up though. I'm just saying.

Hoodwink10 wrote:Thats a good point. How confused would the Alpha Legion and Night Lords have been if that happened?