Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Branched off from This page, where mattyrm expressed a disdain for the lives of those he does not know (quote, "I don't give a gak if people I never met and don't personally know died."), I wonder what stages people actually begin to care at?

I was not remotely bothered by the death of, say, Princess Diana. I found her irritating, and I never cared about anything she used to do. Ditto that irritating one from Big Brother who died of Cancer. All very sad for those involved, and I am not happy they are dead or anything nasty like that, but the only impact either of their death's had on me was that when Diana died I was driving for 4 hours that day in a car with a radio but no tape deck, so I had to listen to gak all day.

Pete Postlethwaite, on the other hand, was a wonderful actor who brought lots into my life, including but not limited to his role as Sgt Obadiah Hakeswill in Sharpe, where he defined villainous for me. He was the main influence in a D&D character I played for several years. I also enjoyed his performances in Romeo & Juliet, the Usual Suspects and several other films. It upsets me that I will never see him perform another role. It is made worse by the fact that he seems to have been a genuinely lovely bloke.

So, are you, like mattyrm, someone who does not give a gak if someone dies whom you have never met, or do you find that there are other ways to reach you?

I only care if I like them, people I don't know, or who's deeds I don't know just don't bother me.

I think when you have actually known someone, talked to someone or even just saw that someone their death is somehow more 'real' to you through the connection you had, however tenous, than a random name. Even putting a picture or a name to a report in the news of someones death makes it more emoitional for (most) viewers.

That's not to say I'm not upset when I hear of deaths from the floods in India or anything. But it is harder to relate to them. Though personally I'm amazed (and a bit sickened) that people here are so upset and are donating so much over the floods happening here in Queensland that have killed 10 people but shrug off death tolls numbering the hundreds if they happened across the water.

Its hard for me to show any compassion when someone dies, but I havent lost anyone real close (nuclear family) to me yet. I dont know how I will react when that day comes. I seem to lack that human element to grieve over the death of any individual. I think my Science background has omitted that emotion from me. Its a part of life, thats the way I tend to handle it. Some cases of death tug at my heart strings more than others though. I definately dont like to hear about murder, shootings, that sort of thing....I feel nothing but empathy for the person and their family when something like that takes place. Some people make so many stupid and unhealthy choices with their lives I feel like they dont deserve the sympathy when they die.

It all depends upon the influence a person has upon you whilst they are alive.
Normaly I can't say I care a great deal when public figures pop thier clogs regardless of what they have done during their lives.
My grief, when it is required, is taken up by close family and friends, the people who deserve it most as they have had the biggest influence on my life and have helped me to become the person I am today. However I do, to an extent, understand the grief which follows the death of a celebrity.
In many cases they have been role models, provided inspiration or simply said something that has cheered us up or helped us through a rough time when others have either not understood or been unable or unwilling to do so themselves.
I will always remember Pete Postlethwaite for his potrayal of Obadiah Hakeswill in Sharpe a series which I loved from the moment it first aired to this day, as such I am saddened by the death of a man who to keep me entertained and amused for such a long time, but that sadness could never, and should never, equal that felt by the death of someone you have a real life relationship with.

I don't think the argument has been put forward that we are going to cry over every death but generally we each recognize the human condition and so therefore are somewhat sympathetic to the situation. Usually it is someone that is connected to us in some way, whether it be a family member or someone we grew up being entertained by. We may not have known them personally but we knew of them and that they existed. It can also be situational such as some freak accident or horrible situation becuase we know we wouldn't want to go through that. Being sympathetic or empathetic doesn't mean losing control and sobbing uncontrollably or anything that extreme. It can be just as simple as recognizing that someone else will be in pain in some capacity even if that means just thinking "well that sucks". When someone dies of something stupid we also have a reaction, even if we don't recognize it as sympathy we typically are angry becuase of the boneheaded silliness of it, the wastefulness of it. The pretense at feeling nothing typically is a mask of anger; if one didn't care at all they wouldn't mention it or it would be as a trifle.

I think my Science background has omitted that emotion from me

Could you explain this in a more detail? I don't recall science requiring one to be emotionally stunted. A person should be able to study the natural world and still feel emotions. Usually when I hear this it is more the case that an individual doesn't have highly visible reaction to someone passing, which is considered the norm somehow, so when they don't have that reaction they think they are not feeling, which I don't believe is true. Just becuase you don't weep every time someone passes doesn't mean you are emotionless or unable to feel.

Take the actor Pete Postlethwaite, it sucks that he died, because I also liked his movies. I feel bad for for families and friends of people that die, because we all have experience with death, its not fun. But those things dont honestly effect me personally at all. Much in the same way that if a close relative of mine were to die, and I mentioned it here on DAKKA, Im sure alot of you guys would say oh that sucks Im sorry for you loss, but in all honesty after you typed that, youd either go onto another OT thread and have a laugh, or continue watching porn.

I feel a bit sorry for someone at that moment, then it goes away the next

All I'm going to say is 'methinks the lady doth protest too much...'

If you catch my drift.

And I still say that despite his machismo, a certain someone probably self harms, whilst locked in the understairs cupboard, sobbing over kitten pictures and deep in the throws of the vinegar strokes.

Because deep down all he wants is a hug. We should all club together and send him on one of those 'sing round the campfire and explore your feminine side' weekends.

If you catch my drift...

Yeah its an interesting topic to be sure..

I dont see why Alb and MGS seem personally upset about things however, but anyway. Thats twice you have personally insulted me MGS, i dont self harm. Its absurd to suggest such a thing, and If you want to come round and see If i have any self inflicted scars I will be happy to PM you my address. You might actually like me in real life.

I took umbrage with "macho bollocks" as that is basically saying "absolute nonsense with no logic behind it"

You can disagree with my logical reasons (see below) by comparing them other reasons you can yourself give, we are all very different people, we disagree about things all the time, but it most certainly aint "macho bollocks"

First of all i find RIP threads to be ridiculous in of themselves, because really, what is the actual point of them? I have known many men shuffle off the mortal coil this year alone, ive never felt the need to make an RIP thread about it, I am of the opinion that it is somewhat crass and it comes across as someone trying to say "look how caring I am" or "I care about this person so you all should too" so I refrain from doing it.

But anyway, lets get down to the meat of it. Ok, im of the opinion that said thread was down to 80% as Patriotism/Nationalism (which i view as intensely idiotic) and 15% Celebrity Worship 5% Genuine sorrow. My argument is simply this.

a. Would MGS have made a thread about another similar actor if he was not British?

More than likely not. The Americans (and my missus) get alot of flak for "flag waving" but I am of the opinon that the British are easily as bad for it.

b. If you have never met or spoken/written/had genuine human interaction with an individual, you cannot be "genuinely" upset about it.

Many personal friends of mine have died these last two years, I was bothered.

Other Royal Marines who I had never met before died, and I wasnt hardly bothered. I felt some sort of bond with them as brothers from the same regiment, but not enough to go and talk about it in the public forum.

Random people die? Not bothered.

Would other actors be more bothered about Pete than random Joes? Perhaps.. i wouldnt know if they have that same feeling of empathy.

c. I feel that most of what people profess to be sympathy as "fake sympathy" because they feel that they should be upset about it, but it isnt real.

In a world with a population as vast as ours, we all harden our hearts to get by. This in itself is somewhat depressing, but it is essential to our own well being yes?

If we all broke down every time we heard about a kid with cancer, a rape, a dead baby, how would we get anything done?

So what does this all mean? Am i sociopath because i dont profess to feel as much sympathy as the next man?

Granted there is also some underlying bitterness, many friends of mine are no longer with us, and nobody is "really" bothered are they?

Perhaps the argument is merely semantic, what does "bothered" actually mean?

I liked PP from the tiny amount i could ascertain from seeing him on film, but seriously, im not bothered.

Why are you?

mattyrm wrote:Yeah its an interesting topic to be sure..

I dont see why Alb and MGS seem personally upset about things however, but anyway. Thats twice you have personally insulted me MGS, i dont self harm. Its absurd to suggest such a thing, and If you want to come round and see If i have any self inflicted scars I will be happy to PM you my address. You might actually like me in real life.

I took umbrage with "macho bollocks" as that is basically saying "absolute nonsense with no logic behind it"

I wasn't personally insulting you mate, just pulling your chain. Your fond enough of calling me a softy tree hugging pinko liberal after all, if you're going to go about dishing this stuff out, learn to accept it a little more graciously...


As to the rest of your post(s) on this, simply put, I said it was a shame and that we had lost a talent who's work I and others here on this site had enjoyed. It was posted by me to let others on dakka know who might not have heard about it otherwise, I thought it news worthy and let them know. I was not demanding any wailing or gnashing of teeth and myself read it whilst drinking my morning coffee, I commented to the wife that it was a bloody shame and she agreed, we then got on with our days and didn't give it much more thought other than I posted it here and on facefeth.

I have no interest, for example, in your 'mates wot nobody else cares about but I do'. I sympathise with those marines and other soldiers, as I mentioned in the other thread, I have recently lost a friend to the conflict in Afghanistan.

Have you considered meditation btw? You do seem to be the one who's upset about things, not I nor Alby. It might help you calm down.

If you don't understand the difference between an internationally recognized talent that the vast majority of us have seen and a buddy of yours only you saw, I'm not sure any amount of discussion will help.

I don't get how recognizing he died meant you were supposed to be bothered. It was never asked of any of us to be bothered, just that we take notice he had died. You seem to think you are being asked for more of a reaction than you actually are.

Also, not everyone hardens their hearts. Don't confuse your worldview with the actual world. While most humans do, not every single one does. Their are some incredibly open and compassionate people out there.

It ia just as insulting to tell others their sympathy is fake as it is for others to tell you how you should react.

I don't see why it is so hard to say "Oh, he died? I enjoyed him in a few movies, that's to bad", and then move on with your day. No one is gnashing their teeth or tearing their clothes, just recognizing someone that almost all of us saw in some capacity over the last 17 years or so ceased to exist. You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what sympathy means.

The question is usually did I care about them when they were alive.

Mate, your kidding me arent you? You fall out with people all the time cos you visibly get super upset, and then you say "oh I dont get upset, whats wrong with all you guys?!" Weren't you on albys ignore list cos you spat your dummy out?

Y ou have basically been giving me sarcy remarks ever since i posted, which indicates somewhat obviously that it is of course you that are angry and upset, not me. Dont give me the "oh here is the worlds smartest man" and "oh look Matty cuts his wrists" and "noone cares wot i duz" and then go "lol! Your upset" when you are being very childish.

Anyway, its neither here nor there and i am being silly as well trying to play the "who overreacts" game with you. Lets move on.

I just dont get why you lost your rag so much, or why it would bother you personally? its not like you an Pete played bridge in the working mens club every Thursday.

I dont really care when people i have never met die, it affects me not a single jot. I dont "miss" them, i dont talk to them, i never did, and the world is a rough place and you just have to crack on. Does it make me an evil man because my tolerance for emotional pain is a tad high? It takes a great deal to upset me. And that is my own personal defininition of being "bothered".

Sorry about your mate in the Gan btw.

Oh and meditation is for poofs.

You don't need to have met a person to feel an attachment to them. When our childhood heroes in particular die we may feel like we've lost a role model or someone who we had great interest in be it a great sporting star or actor. When Tom Baker dies I think a lot of people are going to feel like Dr Who himself has died because he was an enduring part of many people's childhoods. I will care about his death as I grew up watching Doctor Who but I've only met him briefly once in person.

It depends on the individual. Most people feel sympathy when seeing some horrible case on the TV, but they don't "break down" upon hearing it. There is a middle ground between that extreme reaction and not caring. It's easy to feel a little loss or sympathy and then carry on with your day. It's not like you have to take every death either as you would that of a parent or simply not feel moved at all.

My grandfather died a few years ago and I wasn't hugely bothered by it. He'd been ill a long time and I didn't see him that often really, it wasn't a close relationship. I felt like I should be more upset, but I wasn't, I was fine. A few weeks later one of our guinea pigs died and I was desperately upset by it.

I think my Science background has omitted that emotion from me.

I don't think so. I'm from a science background and work with lots of scientists and they don't lose the ability to grieve that I've noticed. I'm quite emotionally deattached on some things and don't get particular upset about much but that's just the individual, it's just being level headed IMO. Doing science doesn't turn you into Mr Spock.

I disagree, i think you DO have to know someone personally.

I loved David Gemmell, I own every single book he ever read.

He died pretty young, and i was pissed off because he wouldnt write any other books, but was i upset about it?

How could I be?

mattyrm wrote: I dont really care when people i have never met die, it affects me not a single jot. I dont "miss" them, i dont talk to them, i never did, and the world is a rough place and you just have to crack on. Does it make me an evil man because my tolerance for emotional pain is a tad high? It takes a great deal to upset me. And that is my own personal defininition of being "bothered".

But words aren't really up for grabs unless you left your wife/girlfriend, your friends, and everyone else and are sitting alone on an island as this is a fever dream as you are having to use words to communicate here. If you are going to invent your own language and definitions there is no way to have a reasonable discussion. You are arguing against things no one has brought up. Recognizing a death isn't the same as it affecting you. Understanding PP died didn't slow my day down any, I just understood he died. None of this has anything to do with a 'high tolerance for emotional pain'. You seem to think recognition means some emotional outburst when it doesn't. If you look up the definition of the word you won't it has anything to do with emotion.

And for someone passing themselves off as having high tolerance for emotions you sure aren't showing it here. You're getting more worked up than anyone ever came close to about PP dieing. Is it becuase you think no one is going to recognize you when you die? Is it jealousy or is it a sense of unfairness that some people get a broader recognition? Just becuase more of us knew someone doesn't mean your friends are any less cared about, just that they aren't international stars; no one is thinking or saying that one is better than the other, just that more people had a shared familiarity with one. You are strawmanning it up all over the place in this and it is a bit odd as to understand why.

I dont really see how not giving a gak when a famous person dies becomes strawmanning it up?

I was merely pointing out that their is a logic behind it, and it is not simply down to "macho bs"

Explain your reasoning to me. I am "worked up" because i reply to people?

Jelousy? Unfairness? When did i even mention these terms? Are you trying to peg me as one of the cast of Dawsons Creek ?

mattyrm wrote:Mate, your kidding me arent you? You fall out with people all the time cos you visibly get super upset, and then you say "oh I dont get upset, whats wrong with all you guys?!" Weren't you on albys ignore list cos you spat your dummy out?

Y ou have basically been giving me sarcy remarks ever since i posted, which indicates somewhat obviously that it is of course you that are angry and upset, not me. Dont give me the "oh here is the worlds smartest man" and "oh look Matty cuts his wrists" and "noone cares wot i duz" and then go "lol! Your upset" when you are being very childish.

Anyway, its neither here nor there and i am being silly as well trying to play the "who overreacts" game with you. Lets move on.

Nope, I was just being sarcastic. This issue doesn't bother me. I am a fairly passionate and opinionated windbag on many things and have very strong convictions over certain issues. In this topic I initially thought your first post in the PP RIP thread was trolling or flamebait perhaps but I then saw your further postings. You don't feel any sort of loss over this actor's death, I feel a sense of sadness (albeit fairly minor) about not seeing him in any new movies. There's the fairly minor difference. You have questioned it and raise an issue where I think there isn't really one. I've not seen anyone else taking your stance on this but several seem to agree that it's ok to pay a moment's respect to someone you've never met if you admired what they did.

The only celebrity death I can think of me being upset over would probably be David Attenborough as his work and programs basically gave me my love of the natural world and I've been a big fan of his books, television and his campaigning. I have a strong admiration for the man as I understand him to be.

mattyrm wrote:
I just dont get why you lost your rag so much, or why it would bother you personally? its not like you an Pete played bridge in the working mens club every Thursday.

I dont really care when people i have never met die, it affects me not a single jot. I dont "miss" them, i dont talk to them, i never did, and the world is a rough place and you just have to crack on. Does it make me an evil man because my tolerance for emotional pain is a tad high? It takes a great deal to upset me. And that is my own personal defininition of being "bothered".

Your use of the phrase 'tolerance for emotional pain' seems to indicate that, again as someone else stated, you see someone paying a moments respect as a weakness and giving in to this 'emotional pain'. Noone here has gone into mourning over the post I made, I wasn't building a shrine or sobbing uncontrollably over it.

If I see those starving kids on the news, I don't roll about on the floor crying about it, but I do feel bad for them, I might send some money to help them and I certainly would like them to have a better life, because I have the ability to empathise and relate as another human being.

In the reverse, I consider you're inability to empathise or understand why others would 'pause for thought' to be a weakness all of it's own. That's not an insult btw, just an observation. It's entirely likely that conflict has hardened your emotions and that's a shame, because for you to reach that state, as you've said, you've had to know people die to violence.

mattyrm wrote:
Sorry about your mate in the Gan btw.

So am I, he was just a bloody kid himself and he left behind a lovely girl who I've known since she was in primary school, and a little baby who will never know him. Bloody waste.

Interesting that you say sorry though, because that's a sentiment isn't it? Expressing condolences and all that. You didn't know the guy and you don't know me, but you can relate to that can't you.

mattyrm wrote:
Oh and meditation is for poofs.

I'm sure the shaolin monks would disagree...

When a celebrity/entertainer/etc,who work I admire passes away I may feel a sense of loss,and in some cases (Joey Ramone for example) even a twinge of sadness,however their is no profound grief involved,simply because no matter how much I admired or enjoyed these peoples works,they was no real emotional attachment to them.
I've lost my Grandmother,Mom,a Sister and several very close friends and each of theses passing deeply affected me due to each Pearson being an integral part of my "real" life.

mattyrm wrote:
Jelousy? Unfairness? When did i even mention these terms? Are you trying to peg me as one of the cast of Dawsons Creek ?

If the gak fits...

mattyrm wrote:I dont really see how not giving a gak when a famous person dies becomes strawmanning it up?

I suppose you should go look up what a strawman argument is before you refute it. In essence, you are becuase you are arguing against things that no one has presented. You are also being a bit of a hypocrite. If you honestly didn't care, you wouldn't have taken the time to post in a thread to say you don't care. That is how real apathy works. You are wildly overreacting to a post about the news of a well known and liked actor dieing and coming off as unhinged. You don't just seem like you aren't apathetic, you seem angry that others are sympathetic or empathetic. You posted in the thread initially and then you consistently respond, and with vigor. These aren't something an apathetic person does. It is also your choice of words as well that present someone who is feeling nothing. If the Royal Marine training is anything like the US Marine training I would guess that you've suppressed certain human elements to the point where you don't understand something even as slight as saying "oh, he died". It is irritating you far more than it should, and this is fairly common among highly indoctrinated in-groups. Thus why you keep coming back to "macho" definitions and the like. It is a defense shield for combat but problematic when you aren't being shot at.

You are of course entitled to your opinion MGS, the issue here is simply that we dont actually know each other and we both have a different idea of what "bothered" actually means.

You might be entirely correct, maybe it is a weakness not being more "well rounded", too much Ying and not enough Yang or whatever, but when your in your thirties, well, your too old to change your whole personality arent you?!

I dont even think IRL i am "macho" I mean, i dislike hugs, feel extreme distaste when I see grown men cry and i would never wear a pink shirt, but thats about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ive seen that Dawson clip a few times and hence his name came to mind..

Ahriman, I wont bother retorting to your psycho analysis because it is entirely off topic, but Alb knows me in real life, and its way off base. However, i can safely say that i am not "crazy macho" because I dont feel i must prove you wrong, and I am more than comfortable with you believing that IRL i am actually extrememly effeminate and the reason i stated i feel the way that I do is because I am actually a girly man and i like watching Hugh Grant movies.

And US marine training is a quarter as long, its extremely easy and they let women in.

mattyrm wrote:
I dont even think IRL i am "macho" I mean, i dislike hugs, feel extreme distaste when I see grown men cry and i would never wear a pink shirt, but thats about it.

That's not being macho mate, that's just being British.

@mattyrm:

There's nothing wrong with feeling a sense of loss when someone (famous) you admire dies. I felt this when Leslie Nielson, Richard Pryor, and Captain Lou Albano died, just to name a few. It's not about going into mourning or anything like that (well, maybe when Super Mario died, I mean, c'mon). It's just feeling sad from the point of view that you won't get to enjoy further efforts from them. The very fact that you equate this feeling with being "pissed off" is interesting.

Overall, I gotta say, this topic and your responses kinda remind me of Wicked Sensitive Crew by Dropkick Murphys for some reason:




"Well, if you guys are hard, then I'd rather be soft. I gotta find me some seriously sensitive dudes."

Yeah, it really depends. But its hard for me to truly care unless I knew them. I mean, when I hear about someone who died on the news, I dislike that they died, but I didn't know them, so its impossible for me to really care. Same with people dying in Africa. I hate that that's how things are, but I can't truly sympathize, because I can't relate to that.

But, I would still never actually mention that I don't care. That wouls make me come off as insensitive even if I'm not. I'd just not say anything.

mattyrm wrote:
Ahriman, I wont bother retorting to your psycho analysis because it is entirely off topic, but Alb knows me in real life, and its way off base. However, i can safely same that i am not "crazy macho" because I am more than comfortable with you believing that IRL i am actually extrememly effeminate and the reason i stated i feel the way that I do is because I am actually a girly man and i like watching Hugh Grant movies.

And US marine training is a quarter as long, its extremely easy and they let women in.

myrriamrm, I'm just tossing out ideas here becuase your reaction to the thread is so over-the-top as to be perplexing. You have spent more time arguing about how you don't care and what it means to be sensitive than almost anyone took to recognize someones passing, and no one asked you if you cared, asked you to care, or wanted to know what your ideas of masculine were. You introduced all that into both threads on your own without any coaxing. That doesn't strike you as odd?

Also, one military service talking trash about another? Shocking! Of course we allow women, our service isn't entirely made of poofs!

FITZZ wrote: When a celebrity/entertainer/etc,who work I admire passes away I may feel a sense of loss,and in some cases (Joey Ramone for example) even a twinge of sadness,however their is no profound grief involved,simply because no matter how much I admired or enjoyed these peoples works,they was no real emotional attachment to them.
I've lost my Grandmother,Mom,a Sister and several very close friends and each of theses passing deeply affected me due to each Pearson being an integral part of my "real" life.

We have evolved empathy and emotions though, and for most of history we have only 'known' people as those being around us, friends, family and neighbours. When these people are suffering in some fashion we empathise with them. Through TV and media, which are very recent developments relatively speaking, we now 'know' lots of people and simply the same feelings can be stirred with people we've never met. It applied to starving kids on TV from another country. Why should we care? They aren't our family, they don't even know them. Helping them in any fashion is unlikely to benefit us in any way at all. But we empathise with them and are emotionally moved by their plight. It's probably for this reason that some people get very upset when their favourite TV character dies. And I mean "character" not actor. People watching a character in a soap or some other series every week for some years can create emotional attachment to that person and become upset when they 'die'. It may me an evolutionary emotional misfire originally formed for empathising with those strictly in your local area or group, but we didn't evolve watching TV and reading newspapers they just trigger the same feelings, and it doesn't make the feelings less real for the person feeling them.

I posted so many times because i was replying to people or retorting to people taking the piss!

Ultimately mate, its a forum where we just come and shoot the gak. I wasnt commenting because i have "deep and personal" feelings about any of it, or because i "secretly need a hug/girlfriend/mothers love, i was commenting because thats just what we do on here!

I quickly typed in "who cares" because i dont really care that much and i was taking the piss out of MGS a tiny bit by saying "Be a man.. man!" I dont wish to open a massive can of worms, i dont hate PP, Im not a sociopath, i dont actually wish to offend any American marines and i dont really mind if you wish to think that i have hair like David Bowie and i wear leather underpants.

Dont be getting all Freud on me cos i knocked a few posts out. If you ever see me dressed like a French sailor you can say "I told you so"

mattyrm wrote:would never wear a pink shirt

Ahem...



...clearly, after seeing the above, you would.

Was going to post 'True Colours', but that song isn't fun...

Cyndi Lauper wrote:Matty just wan't to have fun...