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Now being an Ork player, and a fan of the Arsonist, Ive known about how Rynns World said its goodbyes for awhile now. But talking about just how dumb the Crimson Fists were got me thinking about it even more. So even though people want to bash on the Ultras, I think personally its the Crimson Fists that are the biggest asshats in the galaxy. I mean REALLY?!? What chapter can be dumber then they are......err....were anyways. Heres a link to a page if your totally lost as to what Im saying.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Rynns_World

" the Crimson Fist's fortress-monastery was destroyed in the initial invasion by the chapter's own rogue defence missile and the chapter all but wiped out"

So honestly, what chapter can come close to being so stupid? Because this one is hard to beat

While that is a hilarious incident, I mainly dislike the Fists because they got a whole text box in the SM codex (where only the other founding chapters got one) and oust the Iron Hands (who are a founding chapter), giving them only a tiny little blurp like the other successor chapters.

Im not a fan of what they have done to the fists lately either. Used tho their fluff was nice and rich, now everyone gets a red fist.....doesnt matter how lowly you are, youve got one....or 2....doesnt matter. I get annoyed at how watered down things have gotten

I'm not a fan (or a hater I may add) of the Crimson Fists, but I will agree they're worse than the Ultramarines (whom I don't mind really). I mean, they could develop their own Spine or Morals, but instead the follow the Imperium's, which is frankly lacking IMHO.

I will however point out, that in some OLD (Assassins Codex IIRC) background fluff, it was mentioned that it MAY have been a work of an assassin that caused the rogue missile. This is likely no longer the case in the fluff, however it adds a bit of mystery and intrigue to their story...

Thats interesting......why exactly would the Imperium send an assassin to do that? Would they really want to lose an entire chapter to kill the Arsonist? If only for a little while, because we all know the secret to the Arsonist of Charadon

Would it be pathetic that almost an entire chapter was bombarded by a virus bomb? And it went back and killed half the chapter? Or is that acceptable? OR an entire necron tomb world awakening beneath a chapters homeworld. And then fighting a long war which completely destroyed the chapter except for 2 companies?

Crimson Fists are the Inquisition's lapdog, hence probably why the assassin bit was written out, as it no longer made any sense for the inquisition to kill off their best supporting Astartes chapter.

Crimson fists could of pissed off the wrong inqusitior as punishment the Inqusition destroyed them.
Also the Ultramarines had several regiments of guardsmen and a Titan Legion no less.
Guess what happened? All the regiments and the titan legion and their first, third and fifth companies were wiped out. So in a regiment is usually 2 battallions which is 2,000.
5 regiments x 2 battalions. 10,000 dead guardsmen. then an entire titan legion + 490 Space marines..... You see the problem?
Crimson fists didn't have a PDF force.

Maybe share this secret "we" all know of

Additionally, the CF got space elf allies, Elves in SPACE!

Asherian Command wrote:Crimson fists could of pissed off the wrong inqusitior as punishment the Inqusition destroyed them.
Also the Ultramarines had several regiments of guardsmen and a Titan Legion no less.
Guess what happened? All the regiments and the titan legion and their first, third and fifth companies were wiped out. So in a regiment is usually 2 battallions which is 2,000.
5 regiments x 2 battalions. 10,000 dead guardsmen. then an entire titan legion + 490 Space marines..... You see the problem?
Crimson fists didn't have a PDF force.

Yeah they did.
It's called the Rynns World PDF.
And even if the Fists pissed off 1 inquisitor that's no reason to almost wipe them out unless they really went off the rails.
IMO It's one of my favorite battles.

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Crimson fists could of pissed off the wrong inqusitior as punishment the Inqusition destroyed them.
Also the Ultramarines had several regiments of guardsmen and a Titan Legion no less.
Guess what happened? All the regiments and the titan legion and their first, third and fifth companies were wiped out. So in a regiment is usually 2 battallions which is 2,000.
5 regiments x 2 battalions. 10,000 dead guardsmen. then an entire titan legion + 490 Space marines..... You see the problem?
Crimson fists didn't have a PDF force.

Yeah they did.
It's called the Rynns World PDF.
And even if the Fists pissed off 1 inquisitor that's no reason to almost wipe them out unless they really went off the rails.
IMO It's one of my favorite battles.

They are both my most favorite battles.

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Crimson fists could of pissed off the wrong inqusitior as punishment the Inqusition destroyed them.
Also the Ultramarines had several regiments of guardsmen and a Titan Legion no less.
Guess what happened? All the regiments and the titan legion and their first, third and fifth companies were wiped out. So in a regiment is usually 2 battallions which is 2,000.
5 regiments x 2 battalions. 10,000 dead guardsmen. then an entire titan legion + 490 Space marines..... You see the problem?
Crimson fists didn't have a PDF force.

Yeah they did.
It's called the Rynns World PDF.
And even if the Fists pissed off 1 inquisitor that's no reason to almost wipe them out unless they really went off the rails.
IMO It's one of my favorite battles.

They are both my most favorite battles.

My personal favorite 3 are:
World Engine
Battle for Rynns world
Attack on the Fang (The second one not the first one)

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Crimson fists could of pissed off the wrong inqusitior as punishment the Inqusition destroyed them.
Also the Ultramarines had several regiments of guardsmen and a Titan Legion no less.
Guess what happened? All the regiments and the titan legion and their first, third and fifth companies were wiped out. So in a regiment is usually 2 battallions which is 2,000.
5 regiments x 2 battalions. 10,000 dead guardsmen. then an entire titan legion + 490 Space marines..... You see the problem?
Crimson fists didn't have a PDF force.

Yeah they did.
It's called the Rynns World PDF.
And even if the Fists pissed off 1 inquisitor that's no reason to almost wipe them out unless they really went off the rails.
IMO It's one of my favorite battles.

They are both my most favorite battles.

My personal favorite 3 are:
World Engine
Battle for Rynns world
Attack on the Fang (The second one not the first one)

My top 3 are
Battle of Macragge (space and ground)
Battle of the Emperor's Palace (First)
Battle for Rynns World.

I used to like them because they were on the cover of Rogue Trader.

Then I wasted a week of my life reading Rynn's World.

While Inquisitors are fickled, the other chapters have done way more to warrent an offical retaliation from the inquisition in a single day than the CF have ever done in their entire careers. DAs have been known to take out anyone that tries to blow the whistle on the Fallen, while Space Wolves outright defies the Inquisition (and just about every other convention), to say nothing of the other chapters, who all have incidents that would have caused a massive cleansing if they were lesser members of the imperium. the CF warrenting total destruction by pissing off one inquisitor is just too farfetched.

The only reason why I don't like the fists is their color scheme... The "crimson fist" just bothers be for some reason, I'd rather have it symetrical, with both fists being crimson.

I found the novel to be quite enjoyable and actually read it in two days.

The CFs are a cool chapter, imo, although I find their colour scheme rather boring. Nice on a single figure, though, but not on an army.

They were almost wiped out a second time. It will happen again. They will forever be the almost-wiped-out-but-returns-chapter, as opposed to chapters like the Scythes of the Emperor or the Lamenters, about whom nobody can really be sure whether they still exist or not.

I don't like the fists I don't know why...


anyway if the inquisition wanted them wiped out why them?



DA SW FT BA well everyone then deserves to be annihilated
*cough the space wolves fought against the inquisition to save a branded heretic *cough.

I actually quite like the Crimson Fists, as you may notice by the fact I actually paint my Space Marine force as such, and quite enjoyed Rynn's World, which is what led me to field them.

There was, in previous editions, codex fluff that suggested that it was the work of an Imperial assassin, perhaps working on the orders of the Inquisition, that deliberately sabotaged the missile that caused the destruction of 'Arx Tyrannus'. However, there has been little to suggest that from this point on, so later theories could be a simple malfunction of equipment that no-one in the Imperium truly understands to a mistake on the behalf a serf in the service of the Fists.

As for why the Inquisition would want to wipe out the Fists when they are their 'lapdogs', well.....there's no reason given in canon, but if you put a few thoughts out there, it could range from in-fighting in the Inquisition (The Crimson Fists are highly regarded by both the Ordo Xenos (Deathwatch), and the Ordo Malleus (For their willingness to follow through and eliminate rogue Space Marine chapters), to defiance on the part of the Chapter. As has been said, they are viewed as the Inquisition's lapdogs, and have removed the threat of two 'rogue' chapters. If they refused to go against a third, and the Inquisition did nothing, it would put the Inquisitions authority on shaky ground amoung the Astartes..... again, pure conjecture, but it's all possible reasoning the Inquisition could have for trying to wipe out the Fists. Do admit it's rather shaky, and that others have done more, but others are also members of the first founding. Even if the Crimson Fists have been around since the Second Founding, they don't have the political pull of the big lads.

----

Writing it all out, I'm beginning to think the missile is a left-over relic from when it when they had it as 'The Inquisition did it' that didn't get changed to allow for the new fluff.

I'm a fan of the CF as well, also play a CF painted army .

I'm not quite sure how a machine spirit malfunction can be translated into stupidity throughout a chapter thought?

I mean, when your old '91 Ford pick-up truck finally gives up and stop working, it isn't because you're a dumb ass (weither using the truck in the first place makes you a dumb ass is another debate altogether)... it's because it's an old truck and it's been around for 20 years.

I'm personally a bigger fan of the Inquisition having something to do with it however, I like that more than the idea that the Techmarines had a brainfart while doing the yearly check up on the missile system.

What's with the CF hate? I haven't really seen them do anything to warrant it. Is there something I'm missing here?

I have nothing against the crimson fists (granted I am slightly biased as my favorite chapter is the Imperial Fists). The missiles hitting the chapter keep (whether it was, or was not, the direct result of an assassin), wouldn't be the first time a facepalm happened to almost wipe out a SM chapter (see the examples someone else posted above).

Also just wanted to add, my current painted army is a Celestial Lions space marines force, check out their fluff on lexicanum. The inquisition has pretty much wiped them out as well just because the Lions didn't like one inquisitors methods.
"ork snipers" yeah right.... I'm thinking assassins.

EmilCrane wrote:What's with the CF hate? I haven't really seen them do anything to warrant it. Is there something I'm missing here?

They blew themselves up....on accident.......what part of that are you missing?

KingCracker wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:What's with the CF hate? I haven't really seen them do anything to warrant it. Is there something I'm missing here?

They blew themselves up....on accident.......what part of that are you missing?

The part where the missile was a malfunction that was not caused by the Fists.

KingCracker wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:What's with the CF hate? I haven't really seen them do anything to warrant it. Is there something I'm missing here?

They blew themselves up....on accident.......what part of that are you missing?

No I know that, I talking about why people saying they're just lapdogs for the imperium. Isn't that what all SM are?

KingCracker wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:What's with the CF hate? I haven't really seen them do anything to warrant it. Is there something I'm missing here?

They blew themselves up....on accident.......what part of that are you missing?

The part that it was an accident? That's not stupidity, that's malfunctioning equipment. Even so, why is this something to get all boiled up over? It's a bit of fluff that sets up some cool aesthetics for their chapter. Even if Rynn's World was a book fraught with misspellings and grammatical errors, it was readable by Black Library standards.

And who ever said Ultramarines are the dumbest chapter? Why are people getting so worked up about fluff written about their tiny plastic Spacemen?

I'm surprised that some people dislike the Crimson Fists due to the missile mishap. I thought that the incident destroying their Fortress-Monastery was a good way to illustrate a different type of heroism. A lot of Marine Chapters get those random opportunities to be traditionally heroic, where they happened to be the closest force to answer a distress call, or they were coincidentally in the way of a tyranid invasion.

Some marine chapters have some devastating setback and never ever recover, like the Scythes in the face of the Hive Fleet, or the Celestial Lions and their ambushed Apothecaries.

On the other hand, sometimes really bad things happen for no good reason, but you can endure. The Crimson Fists had not done anything wrong to "merit" the destruction of their Fortress-Monastery. It also would have been really easy to take the remains of the Chapter and engage in a relentless crusade against the orks, grinding down the remaining marines in a heroic final stand.

Instead, Cantor deliberately rebuilt his Chapter from the incident. It's not the heroism of a soldier facing the enemy, or a policeman taking a bullet for a bystander, or a firefighter entering a burning building, but the courage and determination of a tornado survivor rebuilding his home from the wreckage left by the twister. It's a lot less "gung-ho" than most marine stories, so I thought it was an interesting contrast. Compare the Crimson Fists to what, say, a Black Templar commander would have done.

EmilCrane wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:What's with the CF hate? I haven't really seen them do anything to warrant it. Is there something I'm missing here?

They blew themselves up....on accident.......what part of that are you missing?

No I know that, I talking about why people saying they're just lapdogs for the imperium. Isn't that what all SM are?

It's not that they're lap-dogs for the Imperium. They get hated on for being lap-dogs for the Inquisition. This is seen by many as them lacking the general autonomy most chapters hold and their willingness to attack other marines on Inquisitorial order as seen as disloyal and unhelpful to the overall mission of the marines.

Brother SRM wrote:

KingCracker wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:What's with the CF hate? I haven't really seen them do anything to warrant it. Is there something I'm missing here?

They blew themselves up....on accident.......what part of that are you missing?

The part that it was an accident? That's not stupidity, that's malfunctioning equipment. Even so, why is this something to get all boiled up over? It's a bit of fluff that sets up some cool aesthetics for their chapter. Even if Rynn's World was a book fraught with misspellings and grammatical errors, it was readable by Black Library standards.

And who ever said Ultramarines are the dumbest chapter? Why are people getting so worked up about fluff written about their tiny plastic Spacemen?

You call it an accident, I call it idiocy, total OOPS moment if I ever saw one.

And Im sure people get worked up for much the same reason as you criticize them for it. Yes its all little plastic men, way to be the bigger man and pretend none of it matters

I always liked the idea.

I like fatal flaws. A lot of chapters like the Imperial Fists and the Ultra's just dont have those glaring fatal flaws.

The ones that do have a bullet in the belly of the beast bring more to the table in my opinion.

Hell, I am starting a Fire Hawks list as my project for the year. In the fluff they have all but evaporated after the Baddab War which nearly destroyed the chapter...