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Now it's a well known fact that our imagination and vision can be limited by a model,so sometimes we just settle with a "count as" model,as the closest thing we had to our vision at the time. While this is prefectly ok to do this. We do have to draw the line somewhere.

Lets take this for example.

One gamer collects Space marines,but wants to add a little varity into his army,I think it's all fine if he puts a few Sisters of Battle into his squads to add some spice,and being fair it makes a nice narative too.
Or say a White Lion as a Flesh Hound in a Daemon army,Daemons are after-all not always the same.

But on the other hand.

One gamer takes a small toy army tank,and calls it a Leman Russ.I mean a cheap plastic toy shouldn't really be used in a war game.
Or say an other Ork gamer uses a whole pile of bitz and plastic frame to make a Dreadnought,not cool.Yes Orks build with scrap but not like that.

Anyway,count as models a good in moderation,and add a nice touch to make an army stand out.(I use some myself)

So anyway what are your views??

Personally here are my views on "count as"

1.It must be mini,doesn't matter if it comes from a different company,just it's has to be part of the hobby/
2.It must be at least some way connectible to the model your counting it as,ie SOB has a bolter and power armour too,Astroth has a big axe with skulls like a Khorne Lord.

I'm sure you have more add to this than I do.

As long as it is a reasonable representation of the intended model, I would allow it to be played.

also orks are something of a special case, there is obviously more leiweigh for ork models due to the nature of the army. because of this I would probably allow just about anything that an ork opponent brought to be played.

G

My basic policy for counts-as is that it must be recognizable. For Example, a player declaring that his Pyrovore counts-as a Biovore is fine as long as he does not include any real Biovores.

Your White Lion and Sisters of Battle examples would be acceptable by my standards.

When it comes to scratch-builds/conversions out of junk or cheap models, I am fine as long as it holds to rule #1 and looks, if not good, then not terrible.

All-or-nothing. If your ork slugga boy is a nob, then my pocket lint can be a chaos spawn and my cigarette box is a hellhound. All those pennies are ork boyz, and the jar-jar-binks action figure is my hive tyrant. I have no problems with it at all as long as everything can counts as. Short of that, I think it ruins the aesthetic of the game. If 'counts as' is accepable then why bother painting figures, or using anything other than grid maps and cardboard counters?

To be honest, I'm pretty strict on the whole "Counts As" thing. I dislike when people make a generic DIY chapter and make it so that they can have it "Count As" whatever MEQ army's bandwagon they feel like jumping on that month. I've personally got an army for each of the three 5th Marine codices, and while I can't expect everyone to do the same, the practice is still sort of annoying for some unquantifiable reason.

Individual models doing a "count's as" I generally approve of. For example, the various special characters in C:SM, or doing LotD as Deathwatch or something. I also don;t mind when people do a thematic "Counts As" for an army, like doing an IG force as AdMech, Traitor Guard, or even Gue'vessa. I've also don't mind when people use a 5th ed codex to substitute a weaker one from a previous edition, like when people run Deathwing using Logan Grimmnar from the C:SW.

yeenoghu wrote:All-or-nothing. If your ork slugga boy is a nob, then my pocket lint can be a chaos spawn and my cigarette box is a hellhound. All those pennies are ork boyz, and the jar-jar-binks action figure is my hive tyrant. I have no problems with it at all as long as everything can counts as. Short of that, I think it ruins the aesthetic of the game. If 'counts as' is accepable then why bother painting figures, or using anything other than grid maps and cardboard counters?

Counts as can increase the aesthetic of the game. Such as a custom Custodes Army counting as Grey Knights.

For me, counts as essentially breaks down into two acceptable categories;

1. Proxy counts as to test units
2. Aesthetic counts as for army theme/fluff


I don't mind doing 1 on occasion, provided it's not a constant thing and actually leads to someone buying the miniatures. Aesthetics are big for me.

I'm all for number 2, provided it looks decent. For example, Jabba the Hut Daemon Prince= not doing it for me. Genestealer Cult Counts As Ork Army? Hell, I'll buy the guy a beer for doing that army while he beats me.

yeenoghu wrote:If 'counts as' is accepable then why bother painting figures, or using anything other than grid maps and cardboard counters?

Because I like painting figures?

I think thematic "counts as" is laudable- possibly for me one of the greatest things to come out of this game.

Proxy "counts as" to test a unit in friendlies- It's not my cup of tea, but I don't really mind as long as it's visually clear.

Proxy "counts as" to get around paying for models- depends entirely on how hard up for a game I am. I have played against people using pennies as figures before. I've gotten pretty strict with regards to my own standards as I've gotten more experienced with miniatures. In the old days, I used to sub in HE spearmen for Wraithguard, etc. Nowadays I won't even play a game unless every unit in my army is modelled and painted to the best standard I can produce at the time. But to hold other players to that standard just because I hold myself to it, that would kinda make me a , no? The impulse to dictatorially tell other people the correct way to play with their army dolls is a bad thing, IMHO.

Well, I can't say much, I use 3 catachan snipers and 6 cygnar rangers from warmachine as "count as" ratlings.

Otherwise we don't have a lot of count as in my group. I suppose say if someone wanted to make their own chapter of SM, and wanted to use one of the named characters, but with their own model and name that fits their chapter, I wouldn't be too upset.

My only real problem is proxying. Sure we all did it, and I still do. But I like to limit it. I saw a guy cut out a bunch of circles, wrote names on them, and used those as his army. Not cool. Although he was deciding if he wanted to go BA, which I think he did, so it is kind of a wash.

I am rather lax on the counts-as rules myself, as I have quite the history of using nickels for half of my Marines when first starting out (and then when I changed to Bugs, and when I switched to Witch Hunters, and then Guard...) As long as you tell me prior to the game that your D&D models count-as Khorne Berserkers, I'm cool with that; Not everyone has the money to go out and buy 120$+ on models when they want to start up an Ork army, but they want to play them out anyways. If there is intent to buy the actual models and carry on with the collection, I would be more than happy to play against someone who uses spare eldar and empty bases for their Blood Angles as long as they make some eventual progress towards collecting some BA.

The problem lies with the differences between count-as and proxying.
Count-as is creating something such as a Custodes army using Grey Knight rules. I find this perfectly acceptable.
Proxying is using anything at all to represent anything else. This is where all the coke bottle Carnifexes and matchbox Land Speeders lie. This is total unacceptable to me.
There is a person in my club who uses cuboid pieces of Styrofoam as tanks.

My gaming group and I are all fairly short on cash, so many a time quarters and a spare ork boy have stood in as models. I tolerate having anything be anything in friendly games (quarters come to mind) so long as it is kept to a minimum. However, in more serious environments, like at the FLGS, I would enforce the rules put forth by the OP.

I have seen some pretty cool models built from toys and railroad bitz so I don't mind 'em a bit.
I like to experiment with house rules for new things too.

The gaming group that i am with counts as happens quite abit. One of the guys plays a salamander army, but uses Marneus Calgar.. since the calgar model is overladen with UM icons, he made his own using a standard termie with 2 powerfists and whatnot to create a salamander calgar. So really, most of us have some sort of counts as unit somewhere.

Our "rules" for proxying basically goes where there MUST be some height to the model. Basically, you cant use coins to stand in as an ork boy. Generally this only happens if someone is trying out a new unit that he doesnt have, and another person in the group doesnt have (which surprisingly is rare) When i first started guard, my first game showcased a bunch of marines in rhinos being proxied as Vets in Chimera. The did have the actual autocannon models, and the HQ was correct. This was OK by us, because i was waiting on my infantry to come in the mail, and didnt have many of my guard vehicles yet.

So, really, I personally dont mind too much proxying or counts as. As long as you let me know before we start the game, and its fairly easy to identify (ie, a squad sgt who has a chainsword in the list, has a powerfist on his model because you ran out of points), and is easy to distinguish from others in its unit.

I dont really have an issue with "counts as" models....keep in mind I said Model. A quater is not a model, but a converted dude in Termie armour with a thunder hammer and storm shield makes a fine Lysander.

When BA dropped I bought enough assault marines to make 6 10 man squads, but painted them as Ultramarines 8th company to match my existing Ultramarine 2nd Company.

Is this acceptable?

To me and my group, yes. Would people have or had issues with it? yes again. do I care? not really, I like Ultramarines and Assault Marines and wanted to make the 8th company(GO HONOURBLADES!)

I prefer to play against proper models and to use them myself, but I've played a few games with proxies and as long as they are at least similar I don't mind too much.

I once used a big plastic reindeer to stand in for a Tervigon that I didn't have. It was pretty funny watching it tear a Leman Russ apart!

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:One gamer takes a small toy army tank,and calls it a Leman Russ.I mean a cheap plastic toy shouldn't really be used in a war game.

If it is approximately the correct size and has been converted to have the correct weapons then what's the problem?

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:Or say an other Ork gamer uses a whole pile of bitz and plastic frame to make a Dreadnought,not cool.Yes Orks build with scrap but not like that.

Again, if it's the right size and has the right weapons then why isn't it perfect service-able?

I've let some stuff slide like a big choppa counting as a PK or something similar but to be honest i'd prefer people model correctly because otherwise it can get confusing.

I don't think i'd allow coins or other non wargame models as proxies unless it was a friendly game at my house and a friend was trying before buying.

I use a few counts as, I have a cadian commander I use as Al'rahem however I modelled him with the right war, snipers I use as Ratlings, a kit bashed creed, kit bashed bodyguards and my own marbo with a bow.

my basic rules are as long as its clear what it is, it not an entire army of proxies and is fully explained before the game i'll allow it, but I may not be happy

Personally, I tend to be fine with it for infantry so long as it is on the right size base. Vehicles on the other had rely so much on the shape of the model and position of the weapons that the counts as or proxy had better be damn close to the original model (Ie. Pred standing in for a vindi OK, 14" long RC Car standing in for a Storm Raven not OK)

And whats with the hate on DIY chapters. If unit in one codex has a PW and a pistol and so does another unit in a different codex why does it matter that I am DIY??? Why should I have to buy 2 sets of land speeders when they are the same in both armies? There minis are expensive enough.

I do run DIY when I run marines. I field primarily Vanilla Marines, but occasionally I run wolves. Mind you, I won't try to field thunderworlf calv since I don't have those models. But in the end there is very little difference between Devastators and Long Fangs gear wise.

Within limits, I'll allow almost any substitution or two in a friendly game.

However, If it's going to be multiple substitutions then my preference is that:

1. the weapons at least be WYSIWYG. (Examples: your sisters can be marines but they armed as the models are, or Your vanilla marines are SW today, as long as their wepons are WYSIWYG)

or

2. The counts-as is the same across the army. (Examples you can run the plasma's as melta's as long as as all plasma's in the army are meltas or your em4 troopers can be guardsmen, but each weapon has a stated correlation to a GW weapon.

As to non GW stuff in general, I don't care as long as it's painted and it's clear what it's supposed to be. I'd much rather play against a toy tank that was painted and converted into a Leman russ than an unpainted Leman Russ or a random cube of styrofoam.

The above are my preferences, but I rarely force my opponents to comply. Alot of times it comes down to whether the opponent in question is someone pleasant who I enjoy playing against and wants to try something new with their army , or someone who just want's to power game without owning the models.

I think as long as it is reasonable (ie all power swords count as lightning claws) counts as works. It should only really be applied to equipment, not my model counts as this.

Going from general to specific examples given by the original poster.

1. If someone is trying about a unit or army before they buy it (and they're a friend of mine), proxy is fine. But that allowance runs out for me pretty quick. REALLY quick. I spend a lot of time and money on my hobby. Matching my Black Templar army up against your coke bottle drop pods isn't going to work.

1a. You: "These two flamers are meltaguns. I don't have any other flamers in my army."
Me: "Rock on."

1b. You: "This flamer in Squad A is a meltagun, these two flamers in Squads B and C are plasmaguns, and this little flamer in Squad D is really a flamer."
Me: "No. Use something else."

2. Adding a sister of battle to a space marine unit sounds silly. But, they're both imperial units and I don't have an issue with it. If it was painted to match the squad, then no problem at all.

3. Cheap plastic toy? See comment 1.

4. Orks with sprue dreadnought? The rule of cool applies. If it looks kick ass (not likely), then go for it. If it looks like someone piled up some plastic and poured glue on it, then I go back to comment 1.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:Or say an other Ork gamer uses a whole pile of bitz and plastic frame to make a Dreadnought,not cool.Yes Orks build with scrap but not like that.

So your not a fan of scratch builds?

Given your example, an incredible dread could be built providing enough time and planning went into the operation. It would probaly look alot better than the current model too.

I'll draw the lines at bare cheap toys and papercraft models. If an unemployed college student can afford to run an army of actual models, so can you.

Hypocritical i know but if any of my army is unpainted or proxying my opponent can field peanuts, salt shakers and '#1 dad in the world mugs' for all i care. BUT.... If i have a fully painted Wysiwyg force i always feel a bit annoyed if my opponent has not done the same. Lets face it; It's always quite fun to squint your eyes and make 'pew pew' noises.

I have noticed a common grievance in this thread and it revolves around vanilla/blood/wolf marines. The models are similar enough (because they are all marines, duh) that is always tempting to do some count as. Maybe if the kits were completely different (not suggesting they should be!) people wouldnt keep wanting to build dark angel thunderwolves.

Melkhiordarkblade wrote:
One gamer takes a small toy army tank,and calls it a Leman Russ.I mean a cheap plastic toy shouldn't really be used in a war game.
Or say an other Ork gamer uses a whole pile of bitz and plastic frame to make a Dreadnought,not cool.Yes Orks build with scrap but not like that.

What kind of plastic toy? Tamaya models? Something else? Is it the right size, and similar scale? Actually, if done right, I'm pretty sure that would pull off an awesome Dred. On the other hand, I could see it looking really bad also. Even so, if it's roughly the right size, who cares? It won't impact the playability of the game at all, and maybe the guy did the best he could but isn't that good at modelling?

1.It must be mini,doesn't matter if it comes from a different company,just it's has to be part of the hobby/
2.It must be at least some way connectible to the model your counting it as,ie SOB has a bolter and power armour too,Astroth has a big axe with skulls like a Khorne Lord.

I see some dangerous ground being treaded here. You sound more focused on the cheapness of the model, not the actual functionality of it. The fact that you've bothered to post about it means that you feel very strongly about it as well. I use a modified ICBM from the back of a truck that was part of a dollar store army toy as a deathstrike missile. It's hilariously too large and makes perfect sense for the weapon (in my mind) even though it's bulky and wouldn't be able to naturally sit on, let alone fire from, the vehicle for which I have it mounted on (whch is not the original truck). Is that wrong?

kronk wrote:Going from general to specific examples given by the original poster.

1. If someone is trying about a unit or army before they buy it (and they're a friend of mine), proxy is fine. But that allowance runs out for me pretty quick. REALLY quick. I spend a lot of time and money on my hobby. Matching my Black Templar army up against your coke bottle drop pods isn't going to work.

1a. You: "These two flamers are meltaguns. I don't have any other flamers in my army."
Me: "Rock on."

1b. You: "This flamer in Squad A is a meltagun, these two flamers in Squads B and C are plasmaguns, and this little flamer in Squad D is really a flamer."
Me: "No. Use something else."

2. Adding a sister of battle to a space marine unit sounds silly. But, they're both imperial units and I don't have an issue with it. If it was painted to match the squad, then no problem at all.

3. Cheap plastic toy? See comment 1.

4. Orks with sprue dreadnought? The rule of cool applies. If it looks kick ass (not likely), then go for it. If it looks like someone piled up some plastic and poured glue on it, then I go back to comment 1.

I agree with everything here except #1. We use vodka bottle drop pods.

I have some, they're just a pain to get put together. I'm working on it, I swear.

daedalus wrote:We use vodka bottle drop pods.
I have some, they're just a pain to get put together. I'm working on it, I swear.

I hear you. The fiddly bits on the inside a pain in the rump to assemble and paint. I'd give more ley-way if I get to help you with the contents of that Vodka Bottle drop pod!

For people who want to test out an army before committing to the purchases, or if it's one tiny thing that he just doesnt have the model yet (such as a special Character or something) I would allow it provided that he gets the model eventually.

For more mainstream count as (such as the whole army of custodes or the Bitzbox dread) I need to see both of the following: Something that is easily recognisable as the equipment of the intended unit (such as giving Custodes a glaive with a double barreled bolter on top, and saying that represents both the Nemesis Force Weapon AND the Wristmounted storm bolter. I am ok with that) or if sufficient work has been put into it (Say someone makes an army of Lost and the Damned with a bunch of mutants throwing bottles and other assorted junk, and calling it an Infantry Platoon. I have no problem with the tossed junk representing lasgun fire, especially if they went through all the trouble to convert a whole horde of them) then as a personal rule they should be rewarded for their effort and allowed to use the army.

never got flak for my Deff Wing

I use my old Eldar models while i am slowly building my Dark Eldar army. Thats because i don't want to make the same mistake twice, like i did with my eldar, buying what i like and finding out i doesn't work. But i do think proxying is for when you start your army. Not when you have been playing them for like a year.... (Count as is good, if it looks good)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Above is a great example of Count as. Not Proxy, I really like your army!!!

For every good 'counts-as' model there's a dozen WWII German Half-Track models with a few Ork glyphs stuck on them pretending to be Trukks.

Personally, I try not to hold to any specific 'rules' in this regard but instead try to approach each circumstance on a person-by-person base. About 10 years ago I used to regularly play against a gamer used unpainted GW horses as knights and unpainted High Elf spearmen as various units. However, he was always friendly, honest and great to play against. He had a wife, three kids and a mortgage all of which put a damper on his hobby funds and time. On the other hand, there was this other Wood Elf player, with a decent source of income, who meticulously painted every model, refused to use a model that he didn't personally paint and was never any fun to play against. He also never once, to my knowledge, fielded a single WE archer (since the rules at the time allowed that) in a game but used the models as waywatchers instead. Given the attitudes of the two people I never had a problem with the substitutions by the first person, but was always annoyed with the substitutions of the latter.
To sum it up, I usually have fully painted and based armies. I also appreciate and compliment an opponent who goes to the same lengths. However, I'd rather play an enjoyable game against some substitutions than against a jerk with a nicely painted army.