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I am curious to hear if anyone has tried running 3 naked princes in a Demon list? For 80 points you get a lot of model, plus they make a great distraction unit that can actually kick ass if they are ignored.

If you run them this way, you can build an MSU demon list that overwhelms your opponents ability to down your units as there are too many to target.

Downside: they aren't very fast and with no armor save apart from the 5++, bolters will drop them. Giving them wings increases their cost by 75%, I think taking two and dropping them smartly may be the better play.

However, for 240 points, you get three big nasties that must be dealt with. I think in the right list they could be killer.

So has anyone tried this? I am curious to hear what kind of results they've gotten if so.

Bolt princes seem like such a better buy I think is part of the problem. I haven't personally tried it though I've thought about it. Always I come back to not being able to kill transports fast enough and I personally have relied on my HS to contribute to that.

I think that a naked prince wastes a heavy slot that you can’t afford to waste, although I agree wings are REALLY expensive.

I don’t think MSU daemons is generally a good idea for a lot of reasons:
1. You create more obstacles to mishap on. Now in addition to impassible terrain and enemy units you have your own little units peppering the board and cutting up clear areas that you want to DS into.
2. You forfeit the ability to wrap your DS in a way that benefits you. It does make your foot print smaller and we are only talking about 1-2 inches, but the first game that 1-2 inches puts you out of charge range you are going to be cursing.
3. It allows your opponent to easily deny you turn 2 (and possibly 3) charges. Take 2 units of 6 letters instead of one unit of 12. Say two units of six go down, one in charge range one not. The enemy easily kills the close unit, and then kills the next one away the turn after. One unit of twelve lands in charge range half the time, but when it does the enemy only can kill 6 leaving 6 left to charge. So the unit of 12 gets a 2nd turn charge off every other game, two units of 6 never do.
4. MSU is generally not friendly to assault armies, especially if you are facing another assault army. A small unit means fewer chances to multi charge, probably losing against horde assault units, and allowing your opponents assault units to take you on little bits at a time. A special character alone can handle 6 bloodletters, if he has to deal with he’s 6 surviving buddies he’ll think twice.
5. MSU gives up more kill points. In my opinion one of the daemons strengths is fewer kill points (if you’re running more expensive/tougher things like big daemons or crushers).
6. Daemons are already short on the FOC, there really isn’t much room to go MSU. In an 1850 list if you haven’t already filled up your HQ, Elite, and Heavy Support slots you’ve done something wrong. The only things left to go MSU are troops and fast which are the weakest slots in the codex and the most susceptible to all the things I listed above.

I would like to see someone prove me wrong, but I have my doubts.

I don’t think MSU daemons is generally a good idea for a lot of reasons:
1. You create more obstacles to mishap on. Now in addition to impassible terrain and enemy units you have your own little units peppering the board and cutting up clear areas that you want to DS into.
2. You forfeit the ability to wrap your DS in a way that benefits you. It does make your foot print smaller and we are only talking about 1-2 inches, but the first game that 1-2 inches puts you out of charge range you are going to be cursing.
3. It allows your opponent to easily deny you turn 2 (and possibly 3) charges. Take 2 units of 6 letters instead of one unit of 12. Say two units of six go down, one in charge range one not. The enemy easily kills the close unit, and then kills the next one away the turn after. One unit of twelve lands in charge range half the time, but when it does the enemy only can kill 6 leaving 6 left to charge. So the unit of 12 gets a 2nd turn charge off every other game, two units of 6 never do.
4. MSU is generally not friendly to assault armies, especially if you are facing another assault army. A small unit means fewer chances to multi charge, probably losing against horde assault units, and allowing your opponents assault units to take you on little bits at a time. A special character alone can handle 6 bloodletters, if he has to deal with he’s 6 surviving buddies he’ll think twice.
5. MSU gives up more kill points. In my opinion one of the daemons strengths is fewer kill points (if you’re running more expensive/tougher things like big daemons or crushers).
6. Daemons are already short on the FOC, there really isn’t much room to go MSU. In an 1850 list if you haven’t already filled up your HQ, Elite, and Heavy Support slots you’ve done something wrong. The only things left to go MSU are troops and fast which are the weakest slots in the codex and the most susceptible to all the things I listed above.

I would like to see someone prove me wrong, but I have my doubts.

This is pretty spot on. One of the things I love about playing Daemons is that I have so few kill points. When you play light vehicle and small unit spam, you inherently have a leg up when you have 5+ less KP than your opponent.

I also use a Daemon Prince in my DoC list, but haven't been incredibly overwhelmed by what it's able to do. In order to run a really effective one, the kitted out DP of Nurgle seems the best. I use a cheap Tzeentch prince with bolt and gaze to maximize the BS 5. He usually gets shot up and rarely makes it to CC. I am hesitant to add wings. Mass small arms fire is so deadly to my DP and I don't feel like making him a 200 point target that dies to bolters.

The 2 princes I see myself running are both about 160.

DP w/Tzeentch, Bolt, Gaze

DP w/Slaanesh, Musk, Might, Pavane

I haven't found a better way to run them and would be a little leary of naked princes. Though I see what your going for. Maybe 2 naked and 1 equipped....

Also disagree that MSU isn't the way to play Daemons. I have a lot of success normally running 15-18 KP's at 2k. And most of the people who I know who have the most success w/daemons generally have minimum 14 KP's which isn't much of a "leg up" on mech lists really.

I've also seen Nurgle with flies and noxious touch work well. S5 poison attacks that wound on a 2+ can really terrorize anything without an armor value, and T6 goes a long ways against bolter fire.

Yeah, my MSU comment was based on running a shooty/assault daemon list and having first hand experience playing Hulk's list which I barely beat with my rock hard missile wolf list in tournament play. We were at table 2 in the final round, so Hulk had done really well with his MSU daemons. Not to say that is the end all be all of the discussion, you make some good points Artfcylflvrd, but I think there is potential there.

The reason being that some of the best shooting units in the list are 5 man horror/bolt squads, flamers and tzeentch heralds.

If I drop 8 units turn 1 (and that is true that with more units it does increase odds of mishaps) that you can really create targeting problems for your opponent. When you add in the fact that some of those units are rock hard assault units (full diversified BCs) and shooting units, it forces some tough choices.

Naked princes dropping in around BCs, Fiends and Tzeentch heralds drop way down on the priority list. That is why i think you might be able to sneak them into combat. I could be wrong of course. But I think it could work and once in combat, those guys will rock non-dedicated assault units and transports.

And, coincidentally, the best deamon builds I have faced, don;t max out heavy. Well usually not. Fatecrusher and tzeentch MSU/assault daemons are the most powerful I have seen or played and often only have a Daemon Prince or two if anything in HS.

But as always, your experiences may differ.

I think the small BC units are the way to go and small horros units are good, so if that's most of your army I guess that would be MSU. But crushers are unusual because they are so huge that 4 of them make a footprint the size of a much bigger unit. Generally I still say MSU is not the way to for assault units, BCs kind of being the exception. And with such short range on the Horrors and 8 units coming down I have a hard time imagining the good places to DS don't get clogged quickly.

I usually take 2:1 grinders/prince in 1500+ so my heavies are always maxed. Probably 2 out of the 3 other demon players I have come across had maxed heavies, and the third didn't only because the game was small. I'm kind of surprized to hear you guys don't, maybe I'll have to try some new things.

I personally max out every slot at 2k, and nearly every slot at 1750... So yeah I play MSUs. At 1750 I run 2 princes, with bolt and breath, a bit pricey though. At 2k it is 3 bolt princes.

I personally wouldn't consider running naked princes. Might consider MoT with no powers or iron hide though. At 105-110 you have a much more resilient monster, that is still going to be a bullet magnet (the entire point) since it still is very dangerous in assault. Don't know if I would want to give up the BS 5 bolt though.

In case anybody cares (probably not) my 2k list is something like this:
2x Bolt heralds on chariots w/master of sorcery
2x slaanesh heralds on chariot with musk and might
3x4 fiends with might upgrade for each unit (could be 2x6 to even things out for waves)
6x5 units of plague guys
3x8 units of hounds
3 bolt prices

I see what you are saying, and by no means am I a Daemon expert, I have not played the army. I play against it with regularity and I think after I finish my Night Lords they will be my next army (as they compliment each other and I can use both in Apoc games).

I actually much prefer the large, diversified BS squads to the 3 man, although both are good. The large squad, especially with Fateweaver around, and wound allocation means that squad is incredibly hard to kill. Drop it first as you are right, it does have a massive footprint.

My thinking was to take the masque as well. She is easy to drop and combod with slow BCs, Naked Princes and Flamers can make a mess of squads. I have had the Masque/flamer combo just ruin entire units of my boys before. She essentially gives fleet out to units by dragging enemy units towards my army.

The assault units in my hypothetical list will all be maxed in size, the shooting units which are small and easier to drop, will be MSU.

With what I am looking at now, I would have 9 units drop turn one with the preferred wave. ! of which would be an 8 man BC unit with Skulltaker on Jugger attached. That unit will soak the majority of firepower while the 3 naked princes may very well be ignored, allowing them to get into combat where they can really do a lot of damage out of proportion with their 80 point cost.

I could be totally wrong, of course, but it is a thought I had.

With units like screamers and fiends to back these guys up, you can drop further back at a safe distance and with their speed, get where you need to go next turn.

So, it is all hypothetical of course, and may not work worth a gak! But I like to experiment with list builds and see if I can dig up a gem of a new list idea here and there which I occasionally do.

notabot187 wrote:6x5 units of plague guys

That's a lot of plagues!

But yeah, the 8 man crusher plus skulltaker probaly wont ever lose in CC, but it is kind of vulnerable to walkers. Not that a single walker (or even two) will do much, except those ridiculous blood talon dreads , but it will hold that unit up for many turns.

My biggest thing is getting that unit on the ground. I think my store has more things that we call "Impassable" than most so maybe I am hyper sensative, but that unit is 7.5" wide at its smallest point and almost 10" at its biggest. Not to mention 1/3 of the time it goes into reserves and comes down on a board full of units.

The masque might be a cool thing, but pavagne can only effect a unit one time so I was always nerevous to commit to an assault based on the pavagne and then roll a 1 or 2. Pavagne is also only half as likely to go off as it's 'rioded out lash cousin.

But experimenting is good. I must say my daemons are my fun army so I don't get many super competative games in with them, that's typically left to the traitor guard .

And done with the icons.

yeah, 6 squads of plagues is crazy! Notabot, do you find you need that many? I always see 2-3 as totally sufficient.

@arfcllyflvrd
I never see much impassible terrain. We always play area, makes the game so much easier. I see your point though about dropping in a massive blob of troops.

I want to build a funky daemon army. My other armies are geared up for tournaments, so this can be something a little different. Still has to be good, but perhaps not completely optimized. Kind of like my 4th ed IG Airborne army. It was sooooo fun to play, I either won big or crapped out big. Lots of fun but not consistent enough for a tournament.

Pavane is more for drawing units out of cover, down from ruins, etc. I would try not to rely on it for charges but use it more to enhance charges. An average move of 4" really isn't huge. But combined with flamers, can be amazing! For 100 points she can be a game changer and if she fizziles, oh well, not many points invested in her. Plus she can tie up units like dreads for a few turns if needs be.

Speaking of dreads, yeah, when I play BCs that is exactly what I do. Send a dread in there and those guys are stuck for most likely the entire game. Bjorn has killed two squads of the guys for me in tournaments, I love it. That is definitely their fatal flaw.

With skulltaker, you can drop him with them and then run around till you get to the enemy lines and then he can split off and split some skulls!

I'll have to try it out a bit, I think there is some potential in the naked princes. If not that, I can always go MoT with bolt and then they actually become a very real threat. It just jacks their cost so much.

I run 3 MoT princes to accompany Fateweaver and they do spectacularly. They are uber hard to kill when near their boss, and opponents really have to focus them down one at a time as they pose a great threat to their armor.

I honestly disagree with naked princes unless its lower points games. at 1k or less 3 80 pt DP's is pretty damn awesome honestly. Tack in a thirster, some fiends, and horrors for troops, you'll faceroll peeps. But above that they don't really do much. at 1500+ I could see the DP's getting focus fired down quickly; a 5++ just doesn't cut it