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There are more triple vendetta lists in my area than you can swing a dead cat at. I'm running a triple battlewagon, lootas, buggies type list. If I go second the game usually goes some like:
Turn 1: vendetta scout moves give side shots on all battle wagons. Depending on KFF, 2-3 wagons die. Manticores kill remaining wagons. Plasma Russ kills Boyz from wagon. On my turn my lootas/koptas/buggies kill one or two vendettas.
Turn 2: Manticores/vendettas kill loota squads. Game effectively over.

I do alright if I go first but so poor are my chances going second I'm considering putting everything into reserve if I go second vs. guard. It's a desperate idea but I think it's my only chance going second against mech I.G. Am I screwed either way?

What are the rest of their lists usually like? Also, I'm not sure how much you're able to change up your list, but it sounds like you're putting all your eggs into just a couple baskets. What if, instead of worrying about baskets, you just put out all of your eggs on the board and let them roll across, smashing into whatever got in their way? I suppose the manticore would get a few of them, but a manticore alone can't wipe out a hoard army (at least, mine's never been lucky enough to).

Alternatively, if they're just doing a lame alpha strike thing, outflank some Kommandos or Koptas.

yeah, I second that last thing. Get yourself an AOBR deffkopta or 9, and give them buzz saws. Two can play the scout move of obnoxiousness game.

Ailaros wrote:yeah, I second that last thing. Get yourself an AOBR deffkopta or 9, and give them buzz saws. Two can play the scout move of obnoxiousness game.

Was just about to say that but you beat me to it....

Scout moves can't end within 12" of an enemy unit, and things get really awkward when 2 armies have 24" scout moves. The good and bad thing is whoever gets the first scout move gets the best scout move.

Infiltrators also mess with scout moves, but with orks that's limited to kommandos.

I've got two suicide koptas (rokkits/buzzsaw) but if the Guard go first I'm still screwed. The vendettas are only interested in lascannon side armor shots against the wagons so they are happy to stay far away. Typically against IG going first all three of my wagons are dead by the top of turn two so there's no rolling across the table. Kommandos are fabulous against guard and tau but I'd rather have the third loota squad in a tournament list. Nevertheless, I'm sure as F^%$ reconsidering snikrot.

If your playing casual and have the time the move all the models, try a footslogger list (with some deffkoptas as mentioned above)

Nothing is more frustrating for a player with tons of lascannons to have nothing to shoot but 6 point boys.

labmouse42 wrote:If your playing casual and have the time the move all the models, try a footslogger list (with some deffkoptas as mentioned above)

Nothing is more frustrating for a player with tons of lascannons to have nothing to shoot but 6 point boys.

Agreed. I've had good success against Guard with my Kan Wall. However, the Wagon list really struggles.

Can you castle up in a corner so that he can't get a side shot? If he's going first, you know where his vendettas are and where they can be with that scout move.

Other ideas:

Bring more battlewagons than he brings vendettas.

Reserve the wagons but deploy everything else, ideally in cover. Guard is really hard to beat if you've got the same kind of targets that they've got answers for. You need to saturate the field, either with amour or with men, to render some of those guns ineffective. (green tide, for example, would lose some boyz to the manticores, but could spread out vs the russ and ignore the vendettas)

Erm... just swarm then with boys. Change your list and hit them with 5 10 man boys squads. You would easily kill everything. Make sure each squad has a nob with pk for those pesky things with armour values.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Lots to try in my next game.

If the opponent is also taking manticores, a horde is either going to be impossible to maneuver or reduced to a bloody pulp.

The thing about vendettas is they're fragile, and almost always in plain view. Reserve the wagons, and plant enough somethings that can take down vendettas in cover and spread out to ensure that they survive any artillery bombardment.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:If the opponent is also taking manticores, a horde is either going to be impossible to maneuver or reduced to a bloody pulp.

Not really. You can space out some for the first turn or so, and ensure that you get a cover save. Then, as the vendettas are essentially dead points against a green tide, your lootas can disable the manticore - clearly the biggest threat your opponent has. If you lose one whole unit of boyz on that first turn of shooting, but then take out his best anti-horde elements, which aren't likely to be too numerous given the preponderance of mech in the meta), you should be able to get the rest of your boyz into his lines, and then it's over for him.

olympia wrote: Nevertheless, I'm sure as F^%$ reconsidering snikrot.

Snikrot is pretty awesome. S6 on the charge and re-rolling to hit means he can bash in vehicles too if needed, such as those pesky Vendettas if they're anywhere near a table edge. I think the easiest modification would be squeezing him into the list AND reserving your battlewagons if you're going second.

^ Reserving the wagons = sad IG.

There are issues with reserving the wagons too.

First, you have the standard risk associated with reserving things. Three wagons, and a 50% chance that they come on in turn two means you're equally likely to get one wagon on turn two as you are to get two, and less likely to get either none or all three.

Most all-reserve armies are reserving at least six units, hopefully ensuring that they'll have at least three things come in together. Battlewagons cannot do that.

Not only that, but most all-reserve style armies have some way to get an advantage in securing these reserves. Whether it's drop-pod marines or daemons getting half their stuff, guaranteed on turn 1, blood angels with their descent of angels rule, or eldar, nids or even guard with their +1 to reserve rolls, they're all at an advantage to rolling in strong. Orks don't have any means to get this edge.

On top of this, you run the army specific risk that the battlewagon with the forcefield won't show up, leaving those that two even more vulnerable than if you'd bunched them up initially.

You're also further from your opponent's lines than you'd be had you deployed in some manner and had the ability to move on turn 1.

Also, don't forget, you're doing this against guard. That's the one army that has the best anti-reserving piece available, the master of the fleet. Do this once too often against your common opponents and you better believe that guy is going to be showing up in their lists.

In short, unless you're deploying enough other elements to neutralize the vendettas before the wagons arrive, those wagons are going to take the same fire, and your opponent will be able to focus it even more.

I guess I don't see reserving in this situation as the best option available. I think you need to refuse a flank and deploy as best possible to deny those side shots on the first turn. Perhaps look into the terrain on the table - do you have enough that blocks line of sight? Do you deploy near/behind it? I know that can be hard with big battlewagons and tall vendettas, but you might point out to your opponents that having terrain that even blocks a vendetta's line-of-sight would add to the tactical interest of the game. Even something the height of the battlewagon that you can use to cover one of its sides, forcing those vendettas to face your front armour instead, would be something.

Texas Instrument wrote:^ Reserving the wagons = sad IG.

Depends if be bought an officer of the fleet.....

olympia wrote:There are more triple vendetta lists in my area than you can swing a dead cat at. I'm running a triple battlewagon, lootas, buggies type list. If I go second the game usually goes some like:
Turn 1: vendetta scout moves give side shots on all battle wagons. Depending on KFF, 2-3 wagons die. Manticores kill remaining wagons. Plasma Russ kills Boyz from wagon. On my turn my lootas/koptas/buggies kill one or two vendettas.
Turn 2: Manticores/vendettas kill loota squads. Game effectively over.

I do alright if I go first but so poor are my chances going second I'm considering putting everything into reserve if I go second vs. guard. It's a desperate idea but I think it's my only chance going second against mech I.G. Am I screwed either way?

As an IG player who plays a list very similar to what you described, I have to say, if *I* go second against an Ork player with 3+ Battlewagons, I tend to also feel that the game is effectively over for me by turn 2 as well. The Ork player is typically half way across the table before I get a turn, has cover saves for almost everything, and even if I wreck his vehicle, he still has a chance to move his guys closer.

But you're also correct, if I go first, it tends to be a rout in my favor.

It's a very intersting matchup, winner basically decided by who wins the die roll to go first.

olympia wrote:Kommandos are fabulous against guard and tau but I'd rather have the third loota squad in a tournament list.

If it helps you win against mechvets, its probably good for your tourney list, given the meta you describe and the fact they are so popular, and also that other armies operate in a similar fashion. You need to get the battlewagons some space and flank protection at the start.

Redbeard wrote:There are issues with reserving the wagons too. I think you need to refuse a flank and deploy as best possible to deny those side shots on the first turn. Perhaps look into the terrain on the table - do you have enough that blocks line of sight? Do you deploy near/behind it? I know that can be hard with big battlewagons and tall vendettas, but you might point out to your opponents that having terrain that even blocks a vendetta's line-of-sight would add to the tactical interest of the game. Even something the height of the battlewagon that you can use to cover one of its sides, forcing those vendettas to face your front armour instead, would be something.

And this. Definitely reevaluate the terrain you guys are using. With three battlewagons, using terrain, the board edge, and screening units, and with an eye towards where those vends are deployed, you should be able to work it so all three aren't going to be hit in the flank, no?

I would be interested in seeing how a Green Tide worked. Normally they seem to be dismissed by most players because they are so slow. however, at the same time I hear a lot of people say they are good against mech. I have seen Horde Orks with lots of Lootas take out Mech Guard before, so I'm pretty certain they are a viable option.

The only people who think the green tide are slow are those who haven't played them. I never had any trouble getting the footsloggers where they needed to be in 4th ed. Now they can run every turn. Lootas provide the ranged fire necessary to take out the most devastating anti-horde units your opponent has (and with mech being everywhere, it seems like most armies might throw in one or two anti-infantry choices, just in case), and the boyz can get stuck in just fine.

If I recall correctly, the second place finisher at 'ard boyz last year (undefeated, and just a point or two behind the first place) was a green tide ork horde. I watched him dismantle at least one mech guard army, even going second.