Representing a Dark Apostle? (not how to model him)

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**Warboss Imbad Ironskull**

So I'm just wondering what people thought would be a better HQ choice at representing a Word Bearers Dark Apostle? Their faith gives them arcane powers which kind of says a Sorcerer but at the same time it makes more sense for it to be a Lord.

And then if you really want to stick with fluff and have a Coryphaeus that would be a Lord so then you would have 2 if you represented the Dark Apostle as a Lord which I guess isn't a bad thing.

What do you guys think?

And this isn't about how I should actually model the Dark Apostle just which HQ choice would better represent him.

**Chaos Lord Gir**

My friend swears by using the ever amazing Terminator Chaplain (suitibly converted ofc) as his Dark Apostle

Although he does tend to switch between Chaplain or Lord stats, but we don't begrudge him. Its a beauitfuil conversion.

**Storm Lord**

I'm inclined to go with the Sorceror myself. I'm pretty sure that in one of the Word bearers Novels (the second I think) the Dark Apostle uses what in game terms would be seen as a psychic power.

The issues with using a Chaos Lord in my mind are as follows: as you mentioned using the Lord as a Coryphaeus makes more sense than using any other model in the Chaos Range. And fluff wise the Apostle and Coryphaeus are very different-using the same model/rules for them gives them little flavour of their own.

Also arming the Apostle in lord form might be tricky. In order to keep him as a Dark Apostle ideally he shouldn't be marked by any of the Gods which denies him access to the special Daemon Weapons. And although the 'basic' Daemon weapon isn't bad somehow it just doesn't feel right as the Crosius. WHich is why in my mind the Force Weapon of the Sorceror works better. (But I'm not sure why)

On a purely aesthetic reason I always felt like a Dark Apostle should be carrying a copy of the Book of Lorgar with him, which fits better with a Sorcerors look than with that of a Chaos Lord. Hence why my Dark Apostle carries a book and is a Sorceror

Anyway, some food for thought I hope.

**MechaEmperor7000**

A Tzeentch Lord with the Death Screamer Daemon Weapon would probably be the most fluffy way of representing an Apostle as you described it. He will have the Power Weapon and 4+ invul save as all Chaplains do (and was granted to him by the Accursed Crozius like in the old book) as well as possess a powerful ranged shooting "psychic" attack (the Death Screamer's innate ability). Chaplains are close combat specialists, so the Lord seems to be a better choice at representing that.

**Warboss Imbad Ironskull**

The Dark Apostle named Jarulek (or something like that) from the first Word Bearers novel uses what would be the equivilant of pshycic powers in that 1. he can sense when Imperial ships have exited the Warp 2. He communicates with directly his First Acolyte spirit when the Acolyte is having an out of body experience 3. He summons and binds thousands of daemons into the tower being constructed (I can't spell its name

) in addition to Screamers and a Disk of Tzeentch and 4. He is guided by visions throughout the entire book.

Personally I could see a normal Daemon Weapon representing a Dark Crozius but that's just me. And I haven't read anything that says a daemon coulden't be bound within one.

**MechaEmperor7000**

If you want to represent the summoning Daemons part, why not give him a Personal Icon?

I'm assuming you're looking for a rules representation of the apostle.

**Warboss Imbad Ironskull**

Not so much rules, just which HQ choice would better represent him from a fluff standpoint.

**Grot 6**

I have a Warhammer sorcerer with the skin suit, and another bald fat guy with the cloak and the necromonicon pointing his finger with a skull staff, that I would recommend for Dark Apostles.

**Warboss Imbad Ironskull**

Grot 6 wrote:I have a Warhammer sorcerer with the skin suit, and another bald fat guy with the cloak and the necromonicon pointing his finger with a skull staff, that I would recommend for
Dark Apostles.

This isn't about how to represent the model though?

**MechaEmperor7000**

From a fluff standpoint though, it'd still be the Chaos Lord. Apostles are still mainly fighters, not sorcerors.

**blood reaper**

To represent it Reilisticly 130pts
Chaos lord 90pts
Daemon Weapon 40pts
Plus any other Wargear

My Dark Apostle 145pts
Chaos lord 90pts
Power Weapon 15pts
Twin linked Bolter 15pts
Meltabombs 5pts
Personal Icon 5pts
Mark of Tzeentch 15pts

**Warboss Imbad Ironskull**

@MechaEmperor7000: That's not really accurate. Yes every Chaos Marine can fight but the Coryphaeus is the Warlord of the host, they are the ones who lead the host into battle as fighters while the Dark Apostle is the divine instrument of the gods. He does their will and directs the host to reflect this but he isn't the one always in the thick of the battle. But again that dosen't mean he can't fight.

**MechaEmperor7000**

That's still the Chaos Lord's job =/

EDIT: it seems you want to represent it as a Sorceror. Go ahead and do that if it's what suits you. Personally I would do it with a Chaos Lord, but that's just from the nostalgic point of view from the previous edtion.

A Daemon Prince might work too, since fluff wise any Apostle has a higher chance within his host to become one due to being the strongest of the Host.

**Warboss Imbad Ironskull**

A Dark Apostle isn't just a Chaos Lord or a Chaos Sorceror he is a mixture of both. I'm not saying I want to do one over the other, I'm saying that a Dark Apostle woulden't just automatically be a Lord from a fluff standpoint because there is more to it then just charging into battle. And Sorcerors also lead warbands and so standing back and directing the battle instead of charging in isn't something that just Lords do.

**MechaEmperor7000**

yeah but from a fluff vs rule standpoint, he'd be closer to a lord than a sorceror. Still though, the Daemon Prince option is on the table.

**Brother SRM**

E: I don't read OPs, herp herp

I'd use a Chaos Lord; daemon princes are too powerful and sorcerers don't really make sense in the role.

**Warboss Imbad Ironskull**

And also im not trying to decide which to take to represent my Dark Apostle, I already have one and I represent it with a sorceror. This is just a discussion about which would better represent a Dark Apostle from a fluff stand point. And a Daemon Prince is no longer a Dark Apostle, he is a Daemon Prince

we're talking about him as a mortal.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Definately Chaos Lord here. Apostles dont seem like the type to be back and scheming, rather in the forefront bashing heads in.

**Warboss Imbad Ironskull**

Fluff dosen't support that. As I said that is what the Coryphaeus is for.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
And there is a differance between schemeing and directing, ever wonder why outside the game and even in the fluff most generals aren't out on the front lines fighting because they're needed to direct the greater effort.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Chaos is a different matter however. You dont earn the god's favours by cowering behind enemy lines, certainly not Khorne's favour in the least. A Coryphaesus would be a Lieutenant in the older codex.

However you interpret your Apostle is up to you. To me, a Chaos Lord is closer, as it seems more in line with the Chaplain roots of the Apostles. I can see why they would be a Sorceror too, but my preference still lies with the Chaos Lord.

**Bromsy**

I personally think it could go either way, as each Apostle would no doubt have differing abilities. It is conceivable that one could be a raging monster that brings "salvation" up close and personal, where another might not just have something akin to psychic powers, but actually develop them for real. Personally, if you are playing friendly games, I'd test out people's willingness to simply let you use the Accursed Crozius and/or Demagogue ability from the old dex, and apply them to whichever character you'd like.

**Warboss Imbad Ironskull**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:Chaos is a different matter however. You dont earn the god's favours by cowering behind enemy lines

First of all if your alone behind enemy lines there is a problem

2nd You seem to think that cowering and leading (that dosen't involve being in the thick of fighting) are the same thing. They aren't, and before it is assumed that you have to be fighting and killing everying every chance you get without thinking you should remind yourself of Tzeentch. Or of the countless other sources of fluff where Greater Daemons, Daemon Princes, Chaos Lords and Sorcerors all have come up with intricate and detailed plans instead of just charging in and destroying everything.

certainly not Khorne's favour in the least.

We aren't talking about the World Eaters who are just berserk madmen that are always fighting (which seems to me what you think a real leader should be). The Word Bearers worship all of the gods and the may be super human but thinking is still required to fight battles and of you're focused on just charging in and killing everyone how can you focus on the greater battle. Hence why the Primarchs didn't partake in EVERY battle.

A Coryphaesus would be a Lieutenant in the older codex.

And yet we aren't talking about the old codex

(I hope you realise this is all in good fun)

However you interpret your Apostle is up to you. To me, a Chaos Lord is closer, as it seems more in line with the Chaplain roots of the Apostles. I can see why they would be a Sorceror too, but my preference still lies with the Chaos Lord.

I'm aware of this and you have made your point of view clear although the Dark Apostles have evolved beyond the original roots so choosing an HQ based off of how they worked originally dosen't really work since we are talking about them at a later time. All I'm saying is that the reasons you are providing as to why it would be a Chaos Lord hands down aren't exactly concrete especially given recent, up to date fluff.

**willydstyle**

Servants of Chaos do not follow any one path to power. You could easily fluff a Dark Apostle as being a Lord, Sorcerer, or DP.

If a Lord, the Daemon Weapon does a great job of representing an "accursed crozius" as it has a chance to turn on its bearer. I do not think that the Mark of Tzeentch makes him more "fluffy." Yes, the rosarius confers a 4+ invuln in game terms, but in universe terms it is simply a personal force field. The 5+ that the Lord comes with as standard can easily represent the Rosarius, especially because it is likely to be less-effective pre-heresy technology anyways.

If you choose a Sorcerer, I would go with a simple Warp Time sorc. The psychic power can represent the power of the Dark Apostle's oratory in aiding his own prowess. This makes sense as the power of Chaos tends to be personal, as opposed to the power of Imperial Chaplains who inspire a group of soldiers to fight more powerfully.

In the history of the Word Bearers, there have probably been some Dark Apostles who please the Gods well enough to be given the gift of Daemonhood. In this case, choosing an un-marked Daemon Prince with Warp Time is also quite fluffy.

As mentioned earlier, adding personal icons to the Lord or Sorcerer choices to aid in the summoning of daemons makes a lot of sense as well.

**Platuan4th**

Considering that the old rules for Dark Apostles(3.5 Codex) were just Lords with 4+ Inv, Fearless, and Power Weapon, I'd go with MoT Lord.

**MechaEmperor7000**

It's all largely dependant on how closely you wanna get to the fluff, as well as how you try to interpret it too. My image of the Dark Apostle stems from the gameplay style of the 3.5 ed codex moreso than the fluff (as that was the only representation of an Apostle we got), so the Lord fits better that way. If you're talking about a type of title associated, then it's another can of worms altogether. Lord would most definately fit better there (as it would be the second highest rank, right behind true Daemonhood).

**Phototoxin**

Use SM dex or BA dex and use a chaplain/reclusiarch..