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Created for the purpose of speculation of aspects of tyranid evolution and biology.
For example- how to tyranids hear? Smell? How did they origionally evolve?
What would prompt them to evolve into what they are today?
If anyone cares to discuss, they are welcome!

If you look at it very technically, it's a highly viable solution to any problem solvable by evolution. Sure, it may take billions of years to achieve the evolutionary perfection of Tyranids, but evolution takes time. And by evolving the race the way it did, they actually shortened the time span which it takes to evolve over certain obstacles. Now as to hearing and smelling, my guess is those holes some have on the sides of their heads serve either or both of those senses.

Also, this may or may not belong in the General Discussion section.

i think it would depend on the tyranid lifeform.

But, in my view, tyranids are not biologically perfect creatures.
If they were, they would have established some sort of equilibrium with their surroundings.
Tyranids do not- they use every resource possible until it can't be used anymore- WITHOUT being sentient, as humans are.
They are an aberration- perhaps mutations? Creations? Even animals influenced by chaos.

Oh, of course they're far from being a perfect species as individuals, but in terms of resource usage, theirs is actually very efficient, since a) They maximize the available bio-matter by using growth enhancement spores, b) They take ALL of it, leaving not a speck behind and c) They don't really lose any resource at all unless they lose the battle for a planet, with no imminent backup close by.

The holes on the side of their head are used for breathing, leaving the mouth free to consume without needing to stop to breath. Their stomach can digest to an extent for extended survival, it is mostly for storing biomatter that will be carried back to the digestion pools. I don't know whether they have both a endo and exoskeleton, it might depend on the creature.

I meant use up all resources, as in any resource they can use.
Of course they leave stuff behind that's unpalatable, but the planet becomes a dead world because of lack of biomatter such as plants capable of creating a sustainable biosphere.
They do use what resources they have to the utmost perfection, but in evolutionary terms anything that does that eventually would end up dead- they kill off their food and have no way to recreate it. Growth spores only work on the food you have- if you can't get more food, then what?
Unless you count self-harvesting expired tyranid creatures. But that leaves another problem- if these growth enhancement spores would be used on the same biomatter again and again, eventually the biomatter becomes chemically unable to create anything solid.

I take it you haven't noticed they can travel between galaxies. Problem solved.

Agrifex wrote:How did they origionally evolve?

Created by the old ones as a last ditch effort to defeat the c'taan.
A universe filled with mindless beasts = no food for the enemy.
Sort of like a last you, we're making sure you loose as well.

How does travelling through galaxies help solve the problem? Not too clear on that part.
And the Old Ones were native to out galaxy. They didn't get farther than that. Tryanids also came around AFTER the fall of the Eldar from another galaxy.
The Eldar had no idea what tyranids were, either- the Old Ones would have given them the knowledge.
Hence, no connection between tyranids and Old Ones.

Tyranids represent a predator on the galactic scale. A galaxy is simply a prey animal. In a way they're just a big metaphor. They somehow evolved a way to assimilate DNA and trim the best parts. The hive mind is their collective mentality. They have no connection to chaos, in a way they would be an enemy to chaos, as the hive mind acts like a pariah.

Well techically not much is known of the Old Ones, and claiming they where natives to our galaxy is a bit of a stretch. We do know however that they got around alot, more than any other race has yet (aside maybe for Orks due to sheer chance and rapid reproduction). What we do know is that they had the knowledge to literally create life, we also know that they eventually got in a war with the necrontyr that didn't get all that serious for them until the necrontyr discoverred and then got turned to necrons by the C'taan, the war escalated and as the Old Ones got more desperate they created more war oriented races to help them (Orks are suggested as being one). After that they dissapeared, some say they where wiped others say the ascended into pure energy, or maybe they, or some of them, are still active. Either way their influence was pretty wide spread and i find it hard to believe the race that build the webway would be limited to one galaxy for it's sandbox god games.
Also there is the little plaque thing in the xenology book, depicting said war and the old ones throwing life forms against the unliving enemy, one of the blurbs looks suspiciosly lizardy, and we all know which fantasy race nids are based on.

Hmm, there are a great deal of tyranid biology feats that are remarkable, not least interplanetary travel, and maneuvring in space. How for example, do they get the biomatter back from the surface? If the ships can move back up out of the atmosphere, how do they escape gravity? I'm no rocket scientist but i'm sure the energy required is enormous, and I've never heard of tyranid rocket engines...

If they were to say, liquedise and it use tubes to suck it all up, the suction force to get the liquid to move up said tubes would have to be substantial to say the least. That added to the fact that the surface tension of the liquid would need to be altered so that the biomatter wouldn't break up and end up going back down to the planet. Perhaps the addition of a chemical to improve the bonds between the molecules in the liquid?The strength of said tubes would also have to be along the lines of the carbon nanotubes they're proposing to use as a space elevator, given the vast distances it would have to span without breaking.

With regards to propulsion in space, thats never really been covered in detail. I like the idea of riding the gravity currents, but that only works over huge distances and presumably, not that useful for smaller scale movements, say in a fleet battle. There are codex references to 'nid craft being especially agile which would require some powerful sort of mechanism to generate the thrust. I suppose that some sort of air free chemical engines might work, but not being a chemist either I guess the reactions would have to be very exotic.The only other idea that springs into mind is some sort of highly developed telekinesis, which might cover it.

I'm sure there are other things i've mused about, which I'll add later. Thoughts anyone?

Reanimator wrote:Hmm, there are a great deal of tyranid biology feats that are remarkable, not least interplanetary travel, and maneuvring in space. How for example, do they get the biomatter back from the surface? If the ships can move back up out of the atmosphere, how do they escape gravity? I'm no rocket scientist but i'm sure the energy required is enormous, and I've never heard of tyranid rocket engines...
I'm sure there are other things i've mused about, which I'll add later. Thoughts anyone?

Maybe they save all the curries from the planets they devour for the hive ships?

Reanimator wrote:
With regards to propulsion in space, thats never really been covered in detail. I like the idea of riding the gravity currents, but that only works over huge distances and presumably, not that useful for smaller scale movements, say in a fleet battle. There are codex references to 'nid craft being especially agile which would require some powerful sort of mechanism to generate the thrust. I suppose that some sort of air free chemical engines might work, but not being a chemist either I guess the reactions would have to be very exotic.The only other idea that springs into mind is some sort of highly developed telekinesis, which might cover it.

They could harvest gases from space during their travel between planets, from nebulas or even gaseous planets.


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Or maybe the Hive Ships are able to manipulate gravity, and maneuver by 'falling' into an artificial gravity well.

It's logical to assume that if there is a ship dedicated to the purpose of long-distance voyages while manipulating gravity wells then all of the smaller ships may have this power, albeit limited.
And I read the hive ships don't just 'suck up' the biomatter- the capillary tubes, with peristalsis and suction, move it partway up the tube for them.
And the gas-harvesting theory seems far more likely than anything else- it may also provide materials with which to create biomatter, or to create gasses to enable spacetravel.
GW should really clear this stuff up.

For all the space propulsion needs, considering the fact that a ship sized nid would likely have an appropriately sized brain, i would assume they do tap the vast psychic power of the hivemind, so yea it is telekenesis.

Well, if they really do travel by gravity manipulation, surely this must be the means by which they float, no?

Depends graviti manipulation might require bigger organs that cannot fit in smaller bioforms. Most ground based floaters seem to float by either psychic power or chemical compounds.

My read of the gravity manipulation was more along the lines of riding the currents/distortions caused by larger objects, planets, suns etc, less of generating them themselves.

I agree with hover boy ref smaller forms floating, using psychic force or lighter than air gas buoyancy (can't see a spore mine having a developed enough brain power for levitation).

@ Agrifex, reference your suggestion of peristalsis for the tubes, that would certainly help shift it, something I had not considered- good idea!

Just would like to point out that tyranids don't take off at all; instead when a planet is conquered they build huge towers into space that the ships hook up to before having all tyranids and biomass put into digestion pools at the base of the towers before being slurped up by the ship.

Noone here said that nid ships ever landed on planet (not by choice anyway), i think.

HoverBoy wrote:Noone here said that nid ships ever landed on planet (not by choice anyway), i think.

They do land they just don't take off so escaping gravity is rarely an issue.

I may have mentioned it as a solution to getting biomass off the planet. I don't recall reading it anywhere specifically, I was just throwing ideas around, as an alternative to the giant drinking straw idea.

The towers themselves of course would need to be taken along too once they were done, which poses its own problems... Superstrong peristaltic muscularised tubes seems to be a more functional suggestion.

The towers may be raised up and digested by ships already in the upper atmosphere, apparently during the phase when they harvest the atmosphere.

Hmm, another aspect of tyranid biology that I've mused on is the source of psychic energy. Its stated that the nids do not draw their power from the warp, but instead sample a portion of the Hive Mind's immense power. Given that the warp is cited as the source of all psychic power in the 40k universe, I'm curious as to how to justify the use of such enormous amounts of energy for things like levitation, space travel etc, without the warp as an energy source. Thoughts?

They do use Warp-based psychic powers, iirc.

Agrifex wrote:But, in my view, tyranids are not biologically perfect creatures.they were, they would have established some sort of equilibrium with their surroundings.
Tyranids do not- they use every resource possible until it can't be used anymore- WITHOUT being sentient, as humans are.
They are an aberration- perhaps mutations? Creations? Even animals influenced by chaos.

If I understand you correctly, you are stating that Nids are not biologically viable on the long term due to their use of resources. That's a very good question/point, however I think you are looking at it in terms of a 'planet' species rather than a intergalactic roaming species. On Earth, there are environmental pressures to influence genetic evolution (Humans are not the exception as we will eventually find out, we simply haven't driven ourselves extinct....yet). Nids however, due to their ability to travel between galaxies, have no such evolutionary pressure. If you follow their assimilation technique to its logical conclusion, then yes, they might too find themselves extinct....but given the size of the universe and the time it would take...it's unlikely.

All that said, Nid evolution isn't evolution in the the truest sense. Evolution is a series of small steps driven by environmental pressures, that lead some members of a species advantages over their peers...which in turn enables them to live/breed more. Their genetic offspring then inherit their advantages, have their own offspring (with some random genetic swapping)...and on and on. Nid evolution is more like the creative design argument...where they assimilate genetic material and 'intelligently' choose what would be beneficial.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Nid evolution is more like the creative design argument...where they assimilate genetic material and 'intelligently' choose what would be beneficial.

Indeed, in fact it is very likely that the smaller nid organisms seen in the imperium are very different to those used in the previous galaxy as the hivemind adapts its creations to the new enviroments in the most cost effective way possible and then sticks to a template that it slowly improves upon.

Anyone interested in Nid Biology should look at this site...its one of my favourites. The author was tapped for alot of the tech talk for 4th-5th edition...great guy with alot of neat ideas.

http://lore.warpshadow.com/ShermanBishop/mbf.htm