Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So last night I had a situation arise that baffles me to no end...

Before I get into that though, I tried looking for the answer in previous posts and may be missing something so I didn't see anything concerning the topic I'm going to present.

Issue at hand: As I was playing against a Dark Eldar player last night, he went on to move his raiders ~18; subsequently, he disembarked the units inside and initiated assault on the first turn. To my knowledge this is not legal due to the fact that Fast Vehicles count as moving "Flat Out" when moving over 12" according to page 70 of the rule book and in doing so makes the passengers ineligible to disembark.

His counter argument was that moving over 12" was not Flat Out, but instead Cruising Speed as it is a Skimmer and pointed to the fact that Skimmers can move up to 24" for Flat Out (Pg. 71 BRB).

So my question is this: Was this move in fact illegal or did I miss something?

He was definitely moving Flat Out.

I do believe that with Fast Skimmers it is still cruising if you move only 16", but I'd need somebody else to check that for me, because I've had that used against me but never been able to find the rule for it.

His move was illegal. Fast skimmers just get an extra 6" of "flat out" movement more than fast non-skimmers.

Non-skimmer: 12-18" is flat out.

Skimmer: 12-24" is flat out.

He is dead wrong.

Page 71 is the reference you want: "A skimmer that is also fast and is moving flat out can move up to 24"."

Fast Skimmers do not change anything other than gaining 6" of extra flat-out movement.

In other words they do not automatically count 1-12" as combat speed, 12-18" as cruising and 18-24 as Flat out.

double ninja'd. damn.

In other words they do not automatically count 1-12" as combat speed, 12-18" as cruising and 18-24 as Flat out.

Does that mean that Dark Eldar could get out at 16-17" and still charge?

grayspark wrote:

In other words they do not automatically count 1-12" as combat speed, 12-18" as cruising and 18-24 as Flat out.

Does that mean that Dark Eldar could get out at 16-17" and still charge?

Still incorrect for both of you, unfortunately.

Skimmers still only get 1-6" for combat speed, 6-12" for cruising, and movement over 12" is Flat Out. A Skimmer that is also Fast increases that Flat Out move to 12-24". As such, a Raider can only move up to 12" in order for its passengers to still be able to disembark. Anything over, and they can't as the vehicle counts as moving Flat Out.

Thanks for the clarification, cus there's been an IG player at my store having his Vets popping out of Valkyries at 16".

GhostRecon wrote:

grayspark wrote:

In other words they do not automatically count 1-12" as combat speed, 12-18" as cruising and 18-24 as Flat out.

Does that mean that Dark Eldar could get out at 16-17" and still charge?

Still incorrect for both of you, unfortunately.

Skimmers still only get 1-6" for combat speed, 6-12" for cruising, and movement over 12" is Flat Out. A Skimmer that is also Fast increases that Flat Out move to 12-24". As such, a Raider can only move up to 12" in order for its passengers to still be able to disembark. Anything over, and they can't as the vehicle counts as moving Flat Out.

Quite seconded. Remember also that many DE vehicles have the "Supersonic" rule (see codex for details) and also that if people disembark before the vehicle moves, it still cannot move flat-out.

Also note that fast vehicles that are not skimmers on roads can also move up to 24".

EDIT: Supersonic has nothing to do with movement directly, but rather shooting based on movement.

grayspark wrote:Thanks for the clarification, cus there's been an IG player at my store having his Vets popping out of Valkyries at 16".

Just curious.... but why do you let him keep doing this, and never ask to see the rule??

If I ever play you, remember, gaunts are all S6 with 3 wounds...



Sorry, I just don't understand the concept of thinking a rule is wrong, but never asking to have it produced.

grayspark wrote:Thanks for the clarification, cus there's been an IG player at my store having his Vets popping out of Valkyries at 16".

There actually is a special rule that makes that possible. If he just disembarks then yes he is cheating, but if he deep strikes along the path the Valk followed then he's fine.

Yeah, was thinking about that. There's a special rule Valks can use to drop a squad along the line of their movement, Deep Striking like parachute troops. It has special restrictions and drawbacks, though.

Believe it's a dangerous terrain test if you scatter on the deepstrike roll, regardless if you actually collide with terrain. Given my propensity to roll 's, i've never actually done it.

Yeah DT test and if for some reason you cant deploy a model the unit is destroyed.

Unholy_Martyr wrote:SHis counter argument was that moving over 12" was not Flat Out, but instead Cruising Speed as it is a Skimmer and pointed to the fact that Skimmers can move up to 24" for Flat Out (Pg. 71 BRB).

As pointed out this is wishful thinking, not the rules. People see that a Fast Skimmer get to go 6" more and somehow translate that as having higher Combat/Cruise speeds when in fact all they get is more flat-out movement.

For all those players who rely on 1st-2nd turn assaults, we in our playing group have a simple way to keep abusing players at bay:

Before deployment, after all scenery has been set on table, roll scatter dice. Table side pointed by its arrow becomes starting player deploy side, and opposite side becomes opponent's. (IIRC, it was this way in some former edition but not this one, isn't it?)

"What the h3ll is that good for?"

Well, check that serious chance of deploying in both short sides of the table, usually having to cross the long distance to get to CC.

That has proven enough for ALL players to create balanced lists, outcasting assault-meatgrinder-overspecialized lists...

Thanks for all of the affirmation folks. Just wanted to make sure I'm not rule Nazi-ing in the wrong way!

^Same for parking lots, due to the same chance of having no time to shoot before opponent's assault elite start opening cans if deploying by long sides of the table...

That doesn't seem like it would so much cause balanced lists as it would disproportionately favor ones that sit in one place and blast everything apart with >48" ranges. Tau and IG must absolutely love that...

GhostRecon wrote:

grayspark wrote:

In other words they do not automatically count 1-12" as combat speed, 12-18" as cruising and 18-24 as Flat out.

Does that mean that Dark Eldar could get out at 16-17" and still charge?

Still incorrect for both of you, unfortunately.

Skimmers still only get 1-6" for combat speed, 6-12" for cruising, and movement over 12" is Flat Out. A Skimmer that is also Fast increases that Flat Out move to 12-24". As such, a Raider can only move up to 12" in order for its passengers to still be able to disembark. Anything over, and they can't as the vehicle counts as moving Flat Out.

I highlighted the crud out of the relevant bit for you. We both said exactly the same thing, and I was providing a clarification of what was NOT true.

Although i will say thank you for correcting Grayspark in his misunderstanding of what i wrote.

Misunderstanding.

GhostRecon, he said they do NOT count as those distances.

I agree, his statement was a little confusing, but what he said was correct. He was saying that moving 6" extra at the end of flat out does NOT upgrade the other speeds.

My apologies, I read that he and others were thinking the rule tied a 6" addition to the move, rather than what the rule actually states.

@Unholy_Martyr: There is one last thing I think I can contribute here that hasn't been stated. What his 'attack range' ought to be:
Raider goes 12"
DE dismebark ~2 inches. Remember the *back* part of the infantry model's base can be in that last bit of 2 inches giving *more* than the 2 inches.
Run. ~3.5 inches average.
Assault (because of Fleet) 6 inches.
At most, it can be ~26+ inches from where the Raider started.

Something worth writing down for the next game so that the DE player will do it legally.