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Liquifiers, Blasters, and Dark Lances OH MY

Total: 1748

HQ - Duke Sliscus (Warriors)
HQ - Haemonculus w/ venom blade, Shattershard (Wracks)
Elite - Trueborn x 4 w/ blaster x 4, raider
Elite - Trueborn x 4 w/ blaster x 4, raider
Elite - Trueborn x 4 w/ blaster x 4, raider
Troops - Wracks x 8 w/ liquifier, raider
Troops - Wracks x 10 w/ liquifier x 2, raider
Troops - Warriors x 9 w/ raider
Fast - Beastmasters x 4 w/ Clawed Fiend x 1, Razorwing Flocks x 6
Heavy - Ravager, flickerfield, night shield
Heavy - Ravager, flickerfield, night shield
Heavy - Ravager, flickerfield, night shield

I'm kinda against putting flickerfields on everything because most of the time I'm going second and deep striking everything (which may be a debate for the tactics forum). When deep striking (or even moving 12" and shooting) you jump out of the raider anyways, so what's the point of giving it a flickerfield just to protect a dark lance.

Looking for suggestions, comments, complaints.

Edit: Made changes to add a beastmaster unit. I'm thouroughly convinced this is the best CC unit in the codex. The way I built the unit here is 178 points for 38 attacks (49 on the charge), and 38 wounds.

I feel like you are a little light on the scoring units. Also If im adding this correctly your beastmaster squad is 173 points. Have you thought doing khymera for the 4++. You can do that for cheaper and get quite a bit. Other then that i would say drop either night shields or flicker for some extra points.

I just double checked it, I don't see anything wrong with the point total. The only thing I could consider dropping for more scoring units would be the beastmaster squad or one of the trueborn squads. Either leaves me a little naked. If I had the points for a 5th beastmaster I would do the khymerae thing.

I find every single DE list I make is severely lacking in anti tank. Maybe it's just the local meta, but 3 out of 4 people run a mech heavy list around me. The others run the other extreme of horde armies. I feel like if I don't squeeze every point into anti tank I'm going to come up short. This list has 28 dark light weapons which means 18.66 hits, 9.33 glances/pens against armor 12+, and 3.11 destroyed vehicles a round. At that rate it doesn't leave much time to table a mech guard list.

This is why I chose wracks for my main scoring units since they are the toughest to bring down. The group of warriors simply give me amazing mobile ranged infantry killing power (18 shots that hit AND wound on 3s). Everything I constructed gives me a statistical 1-2 punch of popping transports and then mowing down what comes out of them.

I look forward to further debate.

I have been playing with the beastmasters units trying to find the best configuration. What has worked the best for me is the 5 beastmasters, 1 clawed fiend, 10 Kymera, and 4 razorwings. 280 points.

The way you have it setup if you face something like guard the second or third chimera will start insta killing the razorwings (S6) because you have to keep at least one beastmaster alive for the PiP.

With my full unit above you are talking on the charge 6 S5, 55 S4, and 20 S3 rending attacks. yes that is correct 81, attacks all capable of glancing AV10 20 of which can pen anything but a Raider or a Monolith, start a Hami in the unit it will also have FNP which is always fun. (the haemi jumps into a raider first turn leaving the Pain token with the beastmasters)

Haha, I am trying to build the exact same list here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/338711.page

The only advantage I see in taking the duke is that you can disembark the turn they land witch you can't do on the retrofier jets. Still, with the missscatter would it not be better to get some Enchanted Athersails moving in fast enough to get the +4 cover save and then go to town the round after? I am not so big a fan of reserving everything though, but I do like the option of having the chanche to do it.

I do not think you have to few dark lances. You have 15 lances and 12 blasters. Perhaps 13 if you give the warriors blasters. That is quite a lott, and after transports are down wracks and beast masters will rule the day.

I -REALLY- like the beastmasters. I would drop the fiend though, perhaps getting some khymerae for the saves. If you compare 1 beastmaster and 2 razorwing flocks at 42 points they pump out twice as many attacks and genestealers do at the same point cost. This is ia very good unit for anything but a dreadnought/thumderhammer terminators/skimmers. It is even good against tanks.

If you want more lance shots besides the trueborn you can get 5 scourges with 2 blasters or 2 hawyvire guns for 140/130 witch is decent. Better if you get 10 and give them a paintocen haemuncalie, then they have a very good save, and they need to lose some bodies before the good guns go away.

I like the wracks and the haemuncalie, but get one more liquefier gun, you will need it when you runn into nids.

A dark eldar list: Flamer templates/bladevanes for hordes, Darklight for tanks and poisen for MC's.

you over looked Duke... he has a blast pistol! The Haemi has a Shattershard which is better then a liquifier imo. It's basically a template sniper weapon. I looked at your list and you don't have any room in any transport for your Haemi unless he is going with trueborn, but that seems useless to me. I really like the clawed fiend since you can allocate some wounds to it and it gets stronger from anything strength 9 or below. If I can find the points I would add a 5th beastmaster and drop in 5 kymerae. I don't see the point in 10 since they are as expensive as adding in bloodbrides and I don't have those kind of points left over @ 1750 unless I drop a whole unit. IMO their only purpose is to make sure you don't lose a razorwing flock to an instadeath hit (strange I'm worried about losing 15 pointsto a str 8+ hit when anything else in my army would easily crumple to the same hit and costs more points). If you can find 72 points I'm open ears.

"I am also in a bit of a doubt about the trueborn since I will have to move 12, disembark and then shoot and then the next turn they are dead in the water." This is why I deepstrike them to get them at least against rear armor. They are dead anyways, make sure they take out their target!

"5 Beast Masters, 6 Razorwing Flocks, 10 Khymerae 240 ". This is wrong it's 270 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

acsmedic wrote:I have been playing with the beastmasters units trying to find the best configuration. What has worked the best for me is the 5 beastmasters, 1 clawed fiend, 10 Kymera, and 4 razorwings. 280 points.

The way you have it setup if you face something like guard the second or third chimera will start insta killing the razorwings (S6) because you have to keep at least one beastmaster alive for the PiP.

With my full unit above you are talking on the charge 6 S5, 55 S4, and 20 S3 rending attacks. yes that is correct 81, attacks all capable of glancing AV10 20 of which can pen anything but a Raider or a Monolith, start a Hami in the unit it will also have FNP which is always fun. (the haemi jumps into a raider first turn leaving the Pain token with the beastmasters)

FNP only applies to the beastmasters, not the beasts themselves. I don't think your number of attacks is correct. Let's break it down.

Beastmasters S3 A1 x 5 = 5 (10 on the charge)
Clawed Fiend S5 A4 x 1 = 4 (5 on the charge)
Khymera S4 A3 x 10 = 30 (40 on the charge)
Razorwing Flock S3 A5 x 4 = 20 (24 on the charge)

That's 15 less S4 attacks then you calculated and the total is 79 not 81.

"FNP only applies to the beastmasters, not the beasts themselves. I don't think your number of attacks is correct. Let's break it down."

As the rules are written the Beastmaster needs to be there in order to produce a token, but the whole unit benefits from it. This is insane with the beasts since they have so many wounds. The reason I would like to include some of the Khymera is when you charge a rhino and your clawedfiend/razorwing flock takes out the AP10 you get shot by bolterfier back. If you take as many wounds as you har models there is a very good chanche that you lose 25% and the beastmasters (with the good leadership) die. The Khymera is also very good vs instant death, moastly the auto cannon. If ge kraks your flock you can take it on a beastmaster if you do not have the khymera. Khymeras have an insane amount of attacks for 12 points, but the real juvel I think are rending attacks. They are almoast as good as the clawed fiend on tacking out armour but you get more bodies and attacks. Rending is exelent vs marines and MC's. And the khymera can stand up to terminators. Clawed beasts could perhaps be good in a unity where they are 50% of the unit netting it T5 vs attacks, but again 10 bolter shots leaves you dead in the water unles you have a pain token.

I am a bit sceptical to the trueborn in both your list and mine since they die very easaly. :-/ Perhaps if you got 2 hamuncaly with 2 webway portals to go with 2 squads of wracks (or 2 warrior groups) you can open up webway portals and the trueborn could come out of the webway portals. That would shave the costs of the venom of your trueborn, and it would reduce the chanches of deepstrike misshaps.

A Haemonculus in a 9 man warrior/blaster squad also makes them mutch more ressilient. The beastmaster unit will also be mutch more dangerush out of a webway portal.

I am just throwing ideas out there since you seemed a bit disapointed with your list. 2 portal Haemonculus would also shave you the points on the duke, just start 2 transports in the table and hope one of them survives the first volley, or use harlequins with the veil of tears. If you get the portal going the 6 razorwings for 126 points is a bargain with a 19-24 threath range out of the portal. If he has one non dreadnough unit outside of cover just charge in!

Also note that the power from pain rules state that PfP is generally required to generate tokens (which can also be generated with a Cronos, or technically units that start with them), which themselves grant special rules to the unit possessing them.

Taking comments into account... although I disagree that anything without the PFP rule should gain the effects of the tokens... I've done some tooling of the list. Why would anyone not run multiple units of beastmasters if adding Haemis to them at the start makes them this resilient? Basically all the haemis need to do is jump into a raider first turn and leave the beastmasters with their pain token. I'm uneasy with the low amount of dark light weapons (13 dark lances, 3 blasters), but if the beastmasters are this amazing they should tear through just about anything.

HQ (70) - Haemonculus w/ venom blade, Shattershard (deploy w/ Beastmasters then jump in Wracks raider)
HQ (65) - Haemonculus w/ venom blade, liquifier (deploy w/ Beastmasters then jump in Wracks raider)
Elite (151) - Trueborn x 3 w/ blaster x 3, raider, flickerfield
Troops (135) - Wracks x 5 w/ liquifier, raider, flickerfield, Grisly Trophies
Troops (195) - Wracks x 10 w/ liquifier x 2, raider, flickerfield, Grisly Trophies
Troops (195) - Wracks x 10 w/ liquifier x 2, raider, flickerfield, Grisly Trophies
Fast (280) - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Clawed Fiend x 1, Razorwing Flocks x 4, Khymera x 10
Fast (280) - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Clawed Fiend x 1, Razorwing Flocks x 4, Khymera x 10
Heavy (125) - Ravager, flickerfield, night shield
Heavy (125) - Ravager, flickerfield, night shield
Heavy (125) - Ravager, flickerfield, night shield

Total: 1746

So, you're going to run a haemon jump from the Beastmasters to the the small wrack unit with both of them?
Okay. Interesting.
I don't know that I'd keep the trophies.
I doubt those Raiders will live long enough to use them well.
Drop them & you've got 19 spare points. In some friendly circles, that's enough for 2 more Wracks. At worst, it's 1 more Wrack with 9 points to do something with (Animus Vitae?).

My problem with your wracks is the lack of power weaponry. A high # isn't taht awesome against MEQ, if you're allowing them their saves. I'd rather have an Acothyst with an Agonizer, myself, than another liquifier. That Liquifier's only going to work for one shot before you assault, where the P-Weapon will stay throughout the assault.
Agonizers on the beastmasters would be decent, too, if you had the points.

Just my thoughts.

I really like the basis of your list. I think I'm going to yoink it and upgrade it for 2000 points - my group's typical game size.

Eric

That list looks pretty strong, though I am with you on the lack of AT. Hopefully, you can use the darklight on heavier targets and the beastmasters can take down anything left.

Also, Acothysts don't need agonizers in my experience, the volume of poisoned attacks will generally overwhelm the high armor save of most space marines. Only issues might be FNP Blood Angels or terminators.

Note only 1 beastmaster in the unit can take an agonizer, which replaces his cc weapon.... 1 attack, 2 on the charge is a poor use of an agonizer for a single beastmaster imo.

I'm open ears for how to make this list better against mech lists.

I can't think of anything without drastically altering the list. With 2 large units not having Raider's, you lose out at least 2 Dark Lances, likely more. About the only thing I can think it to try to shave enough points to put another blaster in that boat, or change the wracks for 3x 5 warriors w/blasters. Both of those sounds pretty bad though, so I think you will have to make it work with only 15.

@ashenshugar math fail on my part thanks for the correction.

The FNP on the bm unit ruling I am taking from the current INAT FAQ.

I would not always start the haemi's in the bm units. Against things like ba razor spam with maxed preds and lots of deny FNP weapons i would start the haemi's in the wracks units for FC to get those poison re-rolls.

I also got a game in this past Sat. Where with no pain token my bm charged Lysander and his 5 terminator friends and lost only 1 kymera. Again the bm proved themselves on the charge. (I know it is a anecdote but they work for me)

I like your list Ashenshugar. It looks really good. You ahve made me think a lott and since it is my first times playing DE I will be trying a bit of diferent things. I am going for a more MSU apreach (at least in my mind) and I really want to test the diferent units out until I get my sea legs.

Baron 105
Haemonculus, Liquefier Gun, Venom Blade 65

9 Kabalite Trueborn, 4 blaters, Dracon, Grenade Launcher, Agoniser (guns on all, although CC and pistol would be neat) - Raider, Flcikershield 238

10 wracks, 2 Liquefier Guns - Raider Flickershield 190
10 wracks, 2 Liquefier Guns - Raider Flickershield 190
11 Helions, Heliarch, Stunclaw 191

3 Beastmasters, 4 Razorwing Flocks, 5 Khymerae 156
4 Beastmasters, 6 Razorwing Flocks, 5 Khymerae, Venom Blade 203

1 Raider, Night Shield, Flickerfield 125
1 Raider, Night Shield, Flickerfield 125
1 Talos, Twinlinked Haywire Blaster, Chain Flails 115

I really like the beastmasters, but I think helions are a bananas unit. And I need some lances. Liequefier guns are vs hordes.

HQ (70) - Haemonculus w/ venom blade, Shattershard (deploy w/ Beastmasters then jump in Wracks raider)
HQ (65) - Haemonculus w/ venom blade, liquifier (deploy w/ Beastmasters then jump in Wracks raider)
Troops (130) - Wracks x 8 w/ liquifier, raider, flickerfield
Troops (130) - Warriors x 5 w/ blaster, raider, flickerfield
Troops (130) - Warriors x 5 w/ blaster, raider, flickerfield
Troops (130) - Warriors x 5 w/ blaster, raider, flickerfield
Troops (130) - Warriors x 5 w/ blaster, raider, flickerfield
Fast (280) - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Clawed Fiend x 1, Razorwing Flocks x 4, Khymera x 10
Fast (280) - Beastmasters x 5 w/ Clawed Fiend x 1, Razorwing Flocks x 4, Khymera x 10
Heavy (115) - Ravager, flickerfield, nightshield
Heavy (115) - Ravager, flickerfield, nightshield
Heavy (115) - Ravager, flickerfield, nightshield

This is the only way I could think of to keep troop levels high and increase AT capabilities. I had 60 points that I didn't know what to do with. Either
a) 3 nightshields and 3 extra wracks (chosen list above)
b) change a warrior squad to Elite (178) - Trueborn x 4 w/ blaster x 4, raider, flickerfield and have 12 points to play with
c) change two warrior squads to Elite (156) - Trueborn x 3 w/ darklance x 2, raider, flickerfield and have 8 points to play with
d) play with arcane wargear for the HQs
e) other suggestions

This is similar to what I have been building out.

lets see.

5 troops
3 assault elements
pain tokens
18 darklight weapons (17 really as the wracks raider is likely to be flat out)
2 anti-horde templates.
16 splinter rifles
1 special weap. (shattershard)

I think that anything short of a green tide will have a hard time with this list. I like it.

Let us know how it works for you. I will likely build something very similar if not exactly like this.


Oh and to actually answer your question... I would drop night shields on the ravagers. Mine always get targeted by LC, AC, and ML so the 6 inch reduction is not worth it.

I would add grisly trophies to some of your raiders. One of DE weakness is leadership tests and having that reroll from the raider next door when your squad is testing for pinning is a good thing. (it has also saved my wracks from running in CC) Plus it is fun to model !!

I like that revised list a lot. Good work.

Ashenshugar wrote:
This is the only way I could think of to keep troop levels high and increase AT capabilities. I had 60 points that I didn't know what to do with. Either
a) 3 nightshields and 3 extra wracks (chosen list above)
b) change a warrior squad to Elite (178) - Trueborn x 4 w/ blaster x 4, raider, flickerfield and have 12 points to play with
c) change two warrior squads to Elite (156) - Trueborn x 3 w/ darklance x 2, raider, flickerfield and have 8 points to play with
d) play with arcane wargear for the HQs
e) other suggestions

Another Haemonculus?

Eric

I'm actually thinking of dropping the Wracks now for Incubi or Trueborn.

Trueborn w/ Blasters x 4 = 108

That would leave me with 12 points. I can use 10 of them and go Dark Gate instead of Shattershard and make a real tank hunting group.

While I really wanted to include wracks, the beastmasters are more then enough to handle anything in close combat, and the warriors provide enough ranged infantry killing firepower that the wracks only use was to give the Haemis something to use to soak up wounds. I may have to put some further thought into it but I'm strongly leaning in this direction.